Dosing Logic

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I am NOT convinced that testing at a single point guarantees that the instrument is accurate over the Entire Range.

Consider 3 cases in a 2 dimensional space (x,y)
A Vertical Line that is defined by x=1
A Horizontal Line that is defined by y=0
A 45 degree line that is defined by x-1=y

They ALL pass through the point x=1, y=0

SO, a test that shows you are at x=1, y=0
CANNOT tell you which line you are on.

The Mathematical assessment would be that showing a 1.0 reading for a non-anticoagulated person is a "necessary but NOT sufficient condition".

Basically, a single point test tells you that the instrument is working but tells you nothing about it's accuracy over the full range.

'AL Capshaw'

Al:
Wish I had seen this post before breakfast with my husband and a colleague of his, both math teachers at a community college. ;)
I told the colleague, Zeke, about how we increase/decrease warfarin dosages in percentages. I'm sure Zeke would have gotten out a napkin to plot the above graph.
 
IF the INR equation were linear, it could be defined with 2 points, but that is not the case.

The formula for INR contains an Exponential Term (T1/T2)^ISI where ISI is 'usually' 2.0 for finger test instruments (who knows what the tolerance is for that number).

I would want correlation points for at least 3 points (say INR=1,3,5) and preferably more, to be fully confident in the accuracy of the test / tester.

Then you have the problem of finding the Golden Test / Tester the you KNOW is accurate every time. I don't think one exists!

Many Coumadin Clinics recognize that the variation increases with higher INR numbers. MY local Coumadin Clinic used to require a Lab Draw for confirmation for all (finger stick) results that were over 5.0. After conducting a several month study, they dropped that number to 4.5. An M.D. friend in another state tells me that they also use 4.5 as their 'trigger' for verification by Lab Draw.

Apparently (most?) labs seem to feel that the numbers at the Low End of the Range are pretty reliable.

While the INR system is still 'Not Perfect', it is WAY BETTER than the old system of measuring Prothrombin Time where there was found to be a considerable 'variation' in the reagents used for the test.

'AL Capshaw'
 
Al, you can "uber" analyse all you want.....:).... I KNOW that my Coaguchek XS is accurate for what I need.
The INRatio2 is the twin of it, and I would use it in total confidence as well.
The QC is run on start up of the machine, and again while testing the blood. It is Reliable.
Testing is so simple. Let's keep the logic behind it simple too.

Ross, great links that you posted.
The newbies should feel much more relaxed using those calculators.
 
Well, saw the surgeon yesterday who said that everything was hunky dory and that I could drive. When I mentioned what seems to be overly-conservative dosing at the clinic, he says that in his experience (which includes Mass General, Emory, NIH Bethesda, UT Southwestern) they tend to be more conservative when it's an aortic valve because there's less danger of clotting. But he said to call 'em on it at my next test (today) and thought the 2 mg/day dose was a good idea. I'm now one day shy of 3 weeks post op.

So this morning I hied myself across town (no problem with the driving; I went off the hydrocodone cold turkey yesterday because I REALLY want my taste buds back). Anyway, lo and behold my INR had dropped to 1.5. Scurry scurry, consult consult: recommendation changed to 2 mg/day, test in one week. So I came home and called the cardio office and the nurse told me that they'd had problems with generic warfarin in the past (in getting people up to therapeutic levels post-surgery) and so she's phoning in a scrip for Coumadin to see if that helps. I'm still not eating very well because a half a sandwich stuffs me, but I'm about to go make a yoghurt/oj/cherry smoothie and start trying to eat a little something every two hours or so.

I also wanted to bring my uncle's situation up again, since it seems to have gotten lost amidst all the dart-throwing monkey talk:

I also am on Coumadin - warfarin - with the same levels and I run pretty much OK with 22mg per week and get checked once a month but I've been on that crap for 10 years now. When I started I was told to "STAY AWAY'' from Vitamin K and that meant all the things I liked. Now they have changed their mind. Just last week I was told to get an over the counter 100 mcg Vitamin K and take one a day and eat all the good stuff again. I used to mix a little Vodka with my grapefruit juice but I doubt I will start that again. The last part was our usual familial monkeying around about "reasons to stay sloshed," but I found his experience interesting. Turns out that he's had a-fib for years and has kept within therapeutic range by following orders--and then new protocols appear. Suddenly everyone I know is on warfarin for one reason or another.

I'm developing a Food Theory of Coumadin that involves at least three viewpoints: Antique (don't touch any vitamin K foods); Moderate (balance K intake daily and avoid extremes; and Laissez Faire (Dose the diet don't diet the dose). This new one (eat all the K foods you want and take a dose of K) I don't know what to call--but would be interested in y'all's take on it.

I know you think that food has little effect on INR, but I already have to manage my diet pretty strictly (to stave off diabetes and to keep my cholesterol numbers in line) and following the Moderate approach outlined above would probably help me make sure I get enough greens and such, so I don't have a problem designing menus that include paying attention to how much potassium I take in.

I was only off line for a day and I missed you guys a bunch.
 
BigOwl:

Whether you take Coumadin or generic warfarin isn't a factor right now. You are only 3 weeks post-op and are gradually resuming your normal activities. As you do that, your INR will drop unless you increase your warfarin because you are running your warfarin-laced blood more frequently through your liver, where it is metabolized.

I never noticed a difference in my INR when I switched from Coumadin to generic warfarin -- I did notice a nice difference in my bank account, though. :)
 
Big Owl, I started out postop doing the "Antique" diet thing.....avoiding K.
Fortunately my past 2 yrs on VR.com have encouraged me to move back to the "moderate" way of eating that I have always enjoyed.
Experiment a bit and see what works for you.
 
The small appetite is a GOOD thing. I eat something every hour or two during the day until dinner time.
Whole grain cereal, yogurt, fruit, trail mix (nuts and seeds), bran bar, cheese, etc.
 
Big OwL wrote: "they tend to be more conservative when it's an aortic valve because there's less danger of clotting."

HUH???

I understand the "less danger of clotting" with an Aortic Vavle, but I have NO CLUE what they mean by being "More Conservative".

It would appear that their definition of "More Conservative" is to let you go for "how many days now?" with an INR BELOW 2.0

I guess it's the Medical Community Paranoia about Bleeding and total disregard for the Risk of STROKE (that's the patients problem, not ours - philosophy).

The VR.com response to this type of thinking is that "It's easier to replace Blood Cells than to replace Brain Cells".

That's not what I would call "Conservative".
DANGEROUS comes more to mind ... (weren't you at 1.7 a Week ago?)

IF I had been under 2.0 for a Week, I wouldn't leave the Coumadin Clinic without a Prescription for Lovenox Shots to protect me until my INR was back "in range". (And instruction on how to do the self injections)

FWIW, I don't 'buy' the dismissive 'explanation' that Generic Warfarin doesn't work as well as "Real Name Brand Coumadin". (Sounds like something they heard from one of the several different owners/manufacturers of Name Brand Coumadin). Many of us have switched from Coumadin to Generic Warfarin (prefered manufacturers are BARR and TARO who are well known quality suppliers) with NO DISCERNIBLE DIFFERENCE.

Note that many (most?) Prescription Drug Insurance Companies will no longer pay full price for Name Brand Drugs, usually only paying the going rate for the Generic equivalent with the patient picking up the difference. Most pharmacies are now selling Warfarin for $4 or $5 for a 30 day supply and $10 for a 90 day supply in any dose.

'AL Capshaw'
 
Cat: Well the difference in co-pay is 10 bucks--easily made up by the fact that I'm off the $40 copay Hyzaar. I'm willing to go with this for now, especially since they're getting more aggressive.

Bina: I'm in full agreement with you both on moderation and on the little meals. I've lost nearly ten pounds in the three weeks I've been home, and the only real problem is not feeling hungry. One thing that seems to help is meal-planning, so I'm going to try to come up with something simple but nice for dinner tonight (Owlspouse is in an end-of-semester grading frenzy; since he assigns papers rather than tests, it's especially tough on him, with about 90 students), and am going to try a bit of wine (my taste buds were definitely affected by the hydrocodone; I can taste much more this morning than I have been able to).
 
Big OwL wrote: "they tend to be more conservative when it's an aortic valve because there's less danger of clotting."

HUH???

I understand the "less danger of clotting" with an Aortic Vavle, but I have NO CLUE what they mean by being "More Conservative".

It would appear that their definition of "More Conservative" is to let you go for "how many days now?" with an INR BELOW 2.0

I guess it's the Medical Community Paranoia about Bleeding and total disregard for the Risk of STROKE (that's the patients problem, not ours - philosophy).

The VR.com response to this type of thinking is that "It's easier to replace Blood Cells than to replace Brain Cells".

That's not what I would call "Conservative".
DANGEROUS comes more to mind ... (weren't you at 1.7 a Week ago?)

IF I had been under 2.0 for a Week, I wouldn't leave the Coumadin Clinic without a Prescription for Lovenox Shots to protect me until my INR was back "in range". (And instruction on how to do the self injections)

FWIW, I don't 'buy' the dismissive 'explanation' that Generic Warfarin doesn't work as well as "Real Name Brand Coumadin". (Sounds like something they heard from one of the several different owners/manufacturers of Name Brand Coumadin). Many of us have switched from Coumadin to Generic Warfarin (prefered manufacturers are BARR and TARO who are well known quality suppliers) with NO DISCERNIBLE DIFFERENCE.

Note that many (most?) Prescription Drug Insurance Companies will no longer pay full price for Name Brand Drugs, usually only paying the going rate for the Generic equivalent with the patient picking up the difference. Most pharmacies are now selling Warfarin for $4 or $5 for a 30 day supply and $10 for a 90 day supply in any dose.

'AL Capshaw'

"Conservative" was probably my word, not his. I think he was suggesting that they give it more time to stabilize; didn't mean to cause a firestorm here. What was important to me was that I get the dose you guys suggested, and I did.

I know from experience that generic drugs do not always act the same as the name brands. I was on Synthroid for years before switching to the generic, and my tests were way off for months. Since nothing was too far off kilter (except that I was really tired for awhile) my body seemed to adjust to the change. Many people have reported similar problems to The People's Pharmacy--and a couple of friends have warned me that when pharmacies change warfarin distributors it can affect the dose.

My copay on Coumadin is not much higher than for warfarin, and I've got really good drug coverage, so once this gets resolved I'll be able to get a three month supply for a two-month co-pay. As I mentioned to Cat, I'm now off Hyzaar which cost me $40 a month, so this is banana pudding by comparison.
 
Owl -

I'm still not totally clear on how long your INR has been Below 2.0
My recollection is that it has been at least 7 days and maybe longer. To my mind, this is 'pushing your luck' and potentially Dangerous. Please re-read the post from Blanche where he talks about how her husband had several strokes when his INR fell too low (and BEFORE she became fully 'savvy' about anticoagulation).

I'm surprised your Cardiologist didn't prescribe Lovenox Injections (or Heparin) to 'Bridge' you to safety until your INR comes up to range, I would ask for an explanation or be looking for another Cardiologist. Is he aware of how long your INR has been below 2.0?

You need to understand that it takes 3 or 4 days for Coumadin / Warfarin to become fully metabolized so your INR will not 'jump up' with the first increased dose. It may be yet another 4 to 7 days before your INR comes up from this increased dose.

YES, some AVR patients have gone for long periods of time with NO anticoagulation but some, like Blanche's Husband Al, ended up with STROKES as a result of having an INR drop below 2.0 Why take the Risk?

FYI, Lovenox is Fast Acting (within minutes I think) and Short Acting (it 'wears out' after 12 hours or so and therefore requires 2 injections per day). Dose is based on body weight. (typically scaled from 100mg per 220 lbs).

PLEASE, Call your Cardiologist, or PCP, or Coumadin Clinic Manager... someone who understands anticoagulation and appreciates the Risk of Stroke from an INR that is below 2.0

YES, I believe going for a week or more with a Low INR is a BIG DEAL. We've had 2 other members (I'm trying to remember their names) suffer Strokes because of Low INR. Lovenox Injections will protect you until your INR is back in Theraputic Range.

'AL Capshaw'
 
Al: I understand and appreciate your concern on my behalf. My INR has, in fact, been below 2 since my first check after leaving the hospital, nearly three weeks ago: 1.7, 1.7, and today, 1.5.

I do have a call in to my cardio's nurse about Lovenox, and am awaiting a reply.

I also have a couple of questions. What kind of valve was involved with Blanche's husband's stroke? How long ago did it happen (when was the valve put in place)? I know I could look this up, but I'm getting sleepy and will have to go nap shortly.

One thing I'm finding out the more I read up on all this is that there are many factors involved with how individual patients respond to anticoagulation, and a great deal depends on general health, age, previous cardiac events, type of valve, etc. My long-term aspirin therapy (I know that aspirin acts differently on coagulation than warfarin does, but it is a factor), my hypothyroidism, my incipient (but diet-controlled) diabetes, my otherwise good health and (usual) activity level, my short post-op period, my crappy dietary situation, and my current lack of exercise all impact my INR even if only in small ways. I also have a hard time believing that all of the doctors, nurses, and clinical staff I'm dealing with are clueless about any or all of these issues. One or two techs, maybe--but all of them? Somehow I think that if folks around here were dropping like flies after valve surgery, there'd be a to-do about it in the local news rag, and this very rich county would be throwin' some serious money at some trial lawyers (not that they like 'em much) to round up the perpetrators and get 'em the hell out of Dodge.

I really don't mean to make light of this situation (I'm just a natural snark and I actually behave like this for a living). I know you're concerned, and I know you know a lot more about this stuff than I do. But part of therapy is trust. I've got the call in about Lovenox, and I'll go from there. But if my cardio looks at my results and says he doesn't think it's necessary, I'm going to have to follow orders. I am not going to jump up and down and scream if he says to hold off, because if I did that I probably would throw a clot.

I'm also seeing a great deal of talk about differing therapeutic levels with different valves. One long-term study has suggested lower therapeutic INRs with mechanical aortic valves than with mitral valves, and a couple of studies suggest INRs of under 2, since the danger lies on the other end (according to the results of the studies--the danger of bleeding seems to be much higher than the danger of thrombosis). People seem to be working on various low-dose therapies and new drugs that will help make this process easier. Until then, I'll continue to rely on your input, to raise the questions you pose to my own health care professionals, and to go from there.
 
Glad to be back, Mark. Took yesterday off to goof around with Little Owl and got so tired I napped the day away. I don't think I did anything but check e-mail.

Word about aortic valves is that fewer of them tend to "attract" clotting. Also since my aspirin is making my platelets less "sticky" (I guess that's the term), that activity may be inhibiting things, too.
 
However, if I recall correctly, it takes quite a while for clots big enough to do damage to form on the valve.

A clot could form at any time. Today, tomorrow, whenever. It's of the utmost importance to be above 2.0 at all times. People have stroked out being taken off of coumadin for a procedure. It's an individual thing, but it's a huge risk not worth taking.
 
When it comes to the dosing calculator, find the total for the week that you need to take, then figure out what you need to take everyday with what you have to work with. In the case of Heartfelt, if she'd only had 5mg tabs then she could have gone, 5x6 and 7.5x1 for 37.5 for the week.
 
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