Self-monitoring INR from the start

[Amy]

Unless something else is going on, (it’s the [post-op] human body, so that’s likely, but) I’ve found that eating a single Brussels sprout brings my INR down 0.6 points! lol

 

[dick0236]

.............. I’ve found that eating a single Brussels sprout brings my INR down 0.6 points! lol

I really doubt it is the "brussel sprout". I'd bet on natural INR variance between tests. I enjoy Brussel sprouts (steamed w/butter) at least once per week. My last five bi-weekly INRs have been 2.9,2.9,2.5,2.8,3.1. All well within range. Don't let an INR blip determine your diet.

 

[Chuck C]

I'm all set for testing higher doses of K2. I want to be sure that my INR hasn't already been affected by the extra K2 that I currently take.

I found that I have 180 mcg K2 pills - I'll probably add these to the current 100 mcg that I'm taking now -- and I'll check after a couple days.

I also have some 100 mcg K2 on their way to me.

I don't want to go too far overboard with K2, although I don't expect any negative effects overall, but I'll check how (or if) increasing K2 moves my INR.

Cool. I'll go ahead and do the same once I have had a few weeks of INR stability. It will be interesting to see how it affects each of us. n=2 provides slightly more meaningful data than n=1, of course.

I have only been on warfarin for 32 days and there are some other variables that are influencing it right now- such as tapering off of certain meds. I might take the experiment up to 500mcg of k2. I'm not worried about any problems personally at that level. As a precaution, I might purposely dose up slightly for 7 days prior to bring myself close to the top end of my range before running the experiment. My range is 2.5-3.5, but I like to stay 2.5-3.0. For example, before the experiment, I might bring it to the 3.3 range so that I have plenty of margin on the down side in case it moves my INR more than I am anticipating. I don't expect a big shift at 300-500mcg, but I believe it will likely move some.

 

[Protimenow]

Yes. N=2 is definitely better than n=1 (unless, for some reason, BOTH of our bodies react differently, in the same way, as the rest of the world).

I just got a bottle of 100 mcg, and already have a 180 mcg, so once I'm sure of the INR for my 100 mcg dose, I'll up my values.

It'll be good to have two of us doing this.

 

[Chuck C]

Yes. N=2 is definitely better than n=1 (unless, for some reason, BOTH of our bodies react differently, in the same way, as the rest of the world).

I just got a bottle of 100 mcg, and already have a 180 mcg, so once I'm sure of the INR for my 100 mcg dose, I'll up my values.

It'll be good to have two of us doing this.

Sounds good.
We should also note the brands of K2 we are using. Mine is manufactured by SR, Sports Research.

 

[Amy]

Don't let an INR blip determine your diet.

I’m not.... that’s why I was eating them in the first place...

 

[Chuck C]

Here is why I hypothesize that the k2 experiment will show some movement of INR at 300mcg:

"A single portion of 100 g natto had a profound effect on both the INR and circulating concentrations of MK-7 (normally undetectable) for at least 4 days. On a molar basis the intakes of K1 from broccoli and MK-7 from natto were identical (1.5 μmol) yet the inhibitory effect from a single serving of natto was clearly much the greater. "

MK-7 is a subtype of K2, along with MK-4. Natto has a considerable amount of MK-7.

https://ashpublications.org/blood/a...ffect-of-vitamin-K-intake-on-the-stability-of
The linked study is worth reading for anyone concerned about their intake of greens influencing their INR:
" In conclusion, we have demonstrated in this study that food supplements providing 100 μg/day of vitamin K1 do not significantly interfere with oral anticoagulant therapy. Furthermore, irregular consumption of green vegetables in normal amounts will only contribute marginally to fluctuations of the INR value. "

 

[pellicle]

Those who consume natto regularly likely get far more than that daily:

Have you eaten natto?

I lived in Japan for some years and while I ate it from time to time it smelled like the stuff pre-solids infants leave in nappies.

Also I understood that it was a different menaquinone

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10874601/

Changes in circulating vitamin K2 (menaquinone-7, MK-7) and gamma-carboxylated osteocalcin concentrations in normal individuals with the intake of fermented soybeans (natto) were investigated

 

[Chuck C]

Have you eaten natto?

I have not and hear it is an acquired taste. Some love it apparently.

I lived in Japan for some years and while I ate it from time to time it smelled like the stuff pre-solids infants leave in nappies.

Apparently very acquired. I just may pass on ever giving it a go now, lol.

Also I understood that it was a different menaquinone

It is MK-7, which is the same variety that over the counter K2 supplements are generally made up of. MK-4 is the other type.

 

[pellicle]

Apparently very acquired. I just may pass on ever giving it a go now, lol.

Give it a go. Most Asian grocers have frozen stock. Thaw and stir into freshly cooked rice...

 

[Amy]

You can add soy sauce to mask (some of) the taste. Or use the (usually) included mustard packets. Good luck. Warn your wife so she can leave the room or get downwind.

 

[Critter]

The only thing about buying used is there are blood products from previous user on machine. I went with new machine instead ,bought from wilbourn medical. It just showed up today. Payed 900 bucks for the kit. Insurance wanted to charge 3k to rent machine. Will see how it works out. I saw a used one just for machine was 180 bucks on eBay. I don’t need to get HepC or other virus like HIV, I have managed to avoid that working in medical field all of my life. YMMV

 

[LondonAndy]

The only thing about buying used is there are blood products from previous user on machine. I went with new machine instead ,bought from wilbourn medical. It just showed up today. Payed 900 bucks for the kit. Insurance wanted to charge 3k to rent machine. Will see how it works out. I saw a used one just for machine was 180 bucks on eBay. I don’t need to get HepC or other virus like HIV, I have managed to avoid that working in medical field all of my life. YMMV

Whilst it may well be worth giving a second hand machine a wipe-over with an antiseptic cloth or something, if you come into contact with any blood products from a previous user I would respectfully suggest you are using it wrong. When the test strip is inserted it goes into a slot that is covered, so if I had to buy one second hand that would not worry me.

 

[Unicusp]

The only thing about buying used is there are blood products from previous user on machine. I went with new machine instead ,bought from wilbourn medical. It just showed up today. Payed 900 bucks for the kit. Insurance wanted to charge 3k to rent machine. Will see how it works out. I saw a used one just for machine was 180 bucks on eBay. I don’t need to get HepC or other virus like HIV, I have managed to avoid that working in medical field all of my life. YMMV

Not sure how you searched, but in March I bought a New unused Coag-Sense device off of eBay for $215 and a years supply of test strips, lancets and alcohol pads from Wilburn Medical for $228.. Works well too. No issues.

 

[Critter]

I didn’t see that a new machine was sold on eBay. I just know that the possibility of infection from a used machine maybe infinitesimally small to get an infection; but it’s not non-existent which is my entire point. If it’s new and cheap rock on , I missed out on it. Happy with what I got 50 test strips/controls/capillary tubes/coag sense meter/finger stick cartridges.

 

[pellicle]

I just know that the possibility of infection from a used machine maybe infinitesimally small to get an infection; but it’s not non-existent which is my entire point

here's the reality of microbiology ... you can't have decimal places like you can in maths, so less than one is zero : infinitesimally small is zero..

What do you see as the possible pathways and do you imagine that the machines are sold new as "sterile"?

have you ever used anyone elses phone?

with respect to:

The only thing about buying used is there are blood products from previous user on machine.

the blood is put onto the strip, the strip is disposed of. An optical path is used internally to observe the motion of the blood.

If its been spattered in blood then any blood borne diseases will be inactive when you get it and to be honest I doubt there is ever a case of a seller selling a machine covered in blood.

The only blood borne disease I can think of is hepatitis, which if you don't cut yourself with the machine you can't get. The lances are the only thing that penetrates your skin, and they are sealed. The lance tool has replacable tips and even the tool can be be disposed of and bought new for small dollars

Ignorance is anxiety : Knowledge is power

I mean it is of no effect on me if you believe anything, I only see my role in discussing known facts with a scientific background.

Be careful of public toilets too.

 

[pellicle]

and a years supply of test strips

just make sure you don't go past their use by date.

 

[Critter]

I have a BS in microbiology with honors so I kind of understand the whole microbial thing. Plus my machine is exposed to the blood that is pooled in a small well that holds 10 microliter of blood. Can a person guarantee they aren’t getting prions or a hepatitis virion, who knows.

 

[Unicusp]

just make sure you don't go past their use by date.

Yes, thx. They came with really long exp dates like 18 to 20 months.

 

[pellicle]

I have a BS in microbiology with honors so I kind of understand the whole microbial thing.

Great, so what I said should be totally clear then.

Plus my machine is exposed to the blood that is pooled in a small well that holds 10 microliter of blood.

advantage to the Coagucheck then, its the strip, which is disposed of. See here

Can a person guarantee they aren’t getting prions or a hepatitis virion, who knows.

If you held such a degree you'd know the answers to that. Basically don't snort it or ingest it and you'll be fine (prion's indeed ... are you even aware of a blood borne one, sounds like you're searching around for baffellment. You picked the wrong guy for that Tom Foolery )

For the general readership
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/prion-diseases

Prion diseases are rare. About 300 cases are reported each year in the U.S.

PS: back years ago my BSc was a double major of Biochemistry and Microbiology. I've since done a few other higher degrees and if there's one thing I've come to have no time for its "I've got a degree" ... Good scientific argument is had with presentation of a well supported case, both from theory and evidence; not your laurels. If you had done such a degree its first year stuff to know that sufficient dillutions will essentially mean mathematically a fraction of a pathogen. >> which means none.

prions ... FMD!

Best Wishes