Pragmatic look at OHS

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Lets not turn this into another of the "mech vs tis" threads:rolleyes2:. As chronic patients who will always be "joined at the hip" with the medical profession, we should ALL be keenly interested in future health costs. Lets keep talking about the possible solutions. I am very interested in how other countries can do what we do for significantly less money than us folks in the good ole USofA:confused2:.

I have never been able to figure how I could buy Coumanin in Canada and save 40-50% off local prices......or how I could go to New Zealand(internet shopping) and buy a Coaguchek XS INR meter for $800 when Alere, QAS and Phillips wanted 2 to 3 times that:tongue2::cool2::eek2:.

Not meaning to start anything but......do other countries, such as the UK, NZ, ect. have an illegal immigration problem to the extent of ours in the USA? Could this possibly be ONE of the contributing factors of health care costs?

Just asking
 
Greg,

I apologize for even posing the question. I had sternum complications as well although not as serious as yours or others. I just feel very strongly through past experiences with our government trying to take over private enterprise that it never seems to work out well. It's quite possible that with other country's government structure a national health care system can and does work, but our government has yet to prove (IMO) that they can run anything efficiently. My apologies again.

Bryan

Please don't say you are sorry for asking a VERY valid question ....the rates of MRSAs in the two countries are in fact similar with the U.S. ever so slightly higher risk

As you are aware there is tremendous co-operation in research on both sides of the 49th with both countries sharing much ofthe reaserch in cancer, cardiac colitis, diabetes just to name a few there rae fantastic brain trusts on both sides of the border and I reallly dont think one country would not have the quality of treatments without the other
 
My impression about the cross-border comparisons of drug and med-equipment pricing is that a lot of it is remarkably erratic and arbitrary. You can call it "what the market will bear" if you like, but I think it's more like "what somebody thought made sense" or "what we did last year". We here compare costs across borders, and so do some US shoppers for Canadian drugs and a few government bureaucrats and committees, but mostly I think the screwy price schemes just survive for another year.

Did you folks ever see the international wealth index that's based on how long the average worker has to spend on the job to earn enough to pay for a Big Mac? Part of that seems to accurately reflect average national wealth, and part of it seems loopy and arbitrary, because Big Mac pricing seems almost as arbitrary as Coumadin or Metoprolol pricing.

Meanwhile, heart surgeons are pretty well paid here in Ontario (Canada), but they don't make what their counterparts make in Texas or other well-paid parts of the US. And ditto with nurses, and we've suffered a "brain drain" across the border from time to time as a result. A number of US hospitals are impressed with the way we train our doctors and nurses up here, and we're bound to lose some if we don't pay top dollar, internationally.

But other than a few groups like that who are doing "arbitrage" on the differences across the border, I think loopy differences mostly go unexamined and unchallenged, and often not based on much in the first place, either.
 
Dick I found your statement interesting.
I was on Coumadin for almost 40 years before I found a young cardiologist who would prescribe Warfarin.
Here it is the patients right to ask the pharmacist to fill the persrciption with a generic if there is one available.
Most pharmacists ask the customer do they want the name brand or the generic, the vast majority choose the generic because it is cheaper.
Medication that costs more than the copay amount also has the full price printed on the pharmacy label so the patient has transparency as to how much the subsidy actually is and the value of the subsidy scheme.
 
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There is another side to the Drug pricing problem.

I recently read a report about Drug Shortages, especially for several Cancer treatment drugs.
One was because a supplier was shut down for quality problems and the others didn't have the capacity to pick up the load. Hoarding by Hospitals is another factor in this problem.

The other side of the pricing problem is that some Drug Companies make a Business Decision to discontinue producing drugs that are Not Profitable. The FDA has NO authority to compell drug companies to manufacture any specific product.

'Interesting' times ahead!

'AL'
 
Dick I found your statement interesting.

Here it is the patients right to ask the pharmacist to fill the persrciption with a generic if there is one available.
Most pharmacists ask the customer do they want the name brand or the generic, the vast majority choose the generic because it is cheaper.
Medication that costs more than the copay amount also has the full price printed on the pharmacy label so the patient has transparency as to how much the subsidy actually is and the value of the subsidy scheme.

Most Precription Pads in the USA have 2 places for the Doctor's signature.
One for "Fill as Prescribed" and the other for "Substitution Allowed" (with Generic Brands).

'AL Capshaw'
 
Not meaning to start anything but......do other countries, such as the UK, NZ, ect. have an illegal immigration problem to the extent of ours in the USA? Could this possibly be ONE of the contributing factors of health care costs?

Just asking

Of course they do and I would suspect immigrants in those developed European countries have become much more numerous since the EU has been put in place. Here's a link for you to read http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/ and that's just on the UK.

Sorry for side-tracking the thread subject Dick, but I felt Kathy would like to read the link.:thumbup:
 
Meanwhile, heart surgeons are pretty well paid here in Ontario (Canada), but they don't make what their counterparts make in Texas or other well-paid parts of the US. And ditto with nurses, and we've suffered a "brain drain" across the border from time to time as a result. A number of US hospitals are impressed with the way we train our doctors and nurses up here, and we're bound to lose some if we don't pay top dollar, internationally.

Absolutely Norm..! Heart surgeons here make upward and easily over a million dollars a year; in fact, most surgeons do too. My favorite nurse was a lovely English girl who came over for the "top dollar" with plans to return to England one day.

We can go online and buy Canadian drugs and/or drugs from the UK. There is no comparison in price with those countries selling the exact same drugs at a TENTH of the cost we would pay here.

Another reason for our bloated healthcare costs lies in the fact that we are a litigious society. My nephew doctor told me after he retires he will still have to pay malpractice insurance for 5 years - and that's in Texas where there is a $250,000 cap.

Insurance companies and drug companies set the financial pace and the hospitals, clinics, labs, doctors and lawyers pull up the slack. It's a financially convolated equation which needs fixing..
 
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Most Precription Pads in the USA have 2 places for the Doctor's signature.
One for "Fill as Prescribed" and the other for "Substitution Allowed" (with Generic Brands).

'AL Capshaw'

The "Fill as Prescribed" box is what kept me on Coumadin for such a long time. Pharmacists were telling me, a few DECADES ago, that Warfarin was EXACTLY identical to Coumadin, except for "fillers".....but doctors were saying "Oh No"......guess who wins. However, change has finally come and I have been able to get Warfarin for a few yeas. This year I will spend about $40 for a YEARS supply of Warfarin(that is the retail price and no insurance coverage is required) compared to spending about $1200+ for a years supply of Coumadin in the early 1980s:eek2:. I guess we can call that progress in cost control.......I wonder what "tidbits" the hospital/drug monopoly will throw us in another 25 years...notice that I said "hospitals/drug monopoly" and not doctors. By and large, my experience is that doctors billings are not a big part of the past and current problems.....but I think that will soon change as more and more doctors sell their practices to hospitals and become "employees" of the "hospital corporations". Even my Cardio group, as well as several others in Louisville have recently sold their practice to a couple of local hospital chains:confused2:. I am watching to see what my INR tests will now cost:rolleyes2:....or my annual echo:eek2::eek2:.....but thank God I have Medicare, for now at least.

I don't hold our insurance industry "harmless" in all of this....and they really are to blame as much as the medical/drug industry. They really need not care what premiums go to as the higher the premium, the larger the reserve they can "salt away" in the company bank account....and premium increases are paid by us, not them:tongue2:. Also remember, agent commissions are based on premium amounts. 3% of $100 is $3, but 3% of $500 is $15.....do you really think agents mind the higher premium:wink2:? Insurance Corporate managers are also "bonus-ed" based on premium volume.....the greater the premium, the higher the bonus.:tongue2:
 
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Thanks Janie, for the informative article. I appreciate the term "common sense". Doesn't seem to be enough of that today.

My apologies for "side-tracking the thread. That was not my intention.
 
It's a lottery system...yep, our gov't is in the lottery business..

It's a lottery system...yep, our gov't is in the lottery business..

Thanks Janie, for the informative article. I appreciate the term "common sense". Doesn't seem to be enough of that today.

My apologies for "side-tracking the thread. That was not my intention.

And Dick is going to whack my knuckles for side-tracking again,:angel: but Kathy - I believe you'll find this website interesting! http://travel.state.gov/pdf/1318-DV2012Instructions-ENGL.pdf
 
There is another side to the Drug pricing problem.

I recently read a report about Drug Shortages, especially for several Cancer treatment drugs.
One was because a supplier was shut down for quality problems and the others didn't have the capacity to pick up the load. Hoarding by Hospitals is another factor in this problem.

The other side of the pricing problem is that some Drug Companies make a Business Decision to discontinue producing drugs that are Not Profitable. The FDA has NO authority to compell drug companies to manufacture any specific product.

'Interesting' times ahead!

'AL'

Al, this is a big issue all by itself. In the cardiac-relevant field, we've got an ongoing "supply crisis" in the supply of one radioactive drug that's recently become very popular for diagnostic tests of cardiac function. The radioisotope that's distributed is called Molybdenum-99, and as it decays in the container it's distributed in (which they call a "generator" or a "cow"), it produces Technetium-99m, which is "milked" off by hospital staff and used for the tests. Tc-99m is very handy because it's a pure and substantial gamma-radiation source, and it decays away completely quite quickly. (Yes, the "m" is part of the name of Tc-99m, and it's important!)

One ancient government-owned reactor in Chalk River, Ontario, was producing around half of the WORLD'S supply of Mo-99 when it shut down several years ago for extended repairs lasting several years. The rest of the world's supply comes from several smaller-but-similar old reactors, which had their own problems and couldn't ramp up to fill the gap. I think it was the second-largest (in Netherlands?) that was shut down most of the last year or two, and may still be down.

A plan to build TWO brand-new isotope-production reactors ("MAPLE") in Canada to replace our ancient ("NRU") reactor ended in tears because of a series of major errors in reactor physics, design, and safety analysis, finally leading to the cancellation of the project after it was many years late and many 100s of millions of dollars over budget, with no clear end in sight. (Some people still think the project was about to succeed and should be restarted, but it's always with MY money and not just THEIRS. . .)

A number of analysts in the US have noticed that US nuclear-medicine tests are vulnerable to disruption in radio-isotope supply from a few non-US reactors (and old and unreliable ones, too), AND that most of those reactors need shipments of atom-bomb-usable High-Enriched Uranium (HEU) to operate, and the shipments come from the US, in general violation of US policy to stop spreading bomb-grade materials around the world. So there's a move to build new facilities (reactors and/or accelerators) in the US to make Mo-99.

Mo-99/Tc-99m is very handy, but I believe it largely captured the developing marketplace for nuclear-medicine isotopes because its pricing is crazy cheap. The competing drugs are sold by Big Pharma (which is determined to MAKE MONEY on drugs, for their shareholders), and virtually all competing radio-isotopes are made at hospitals in accelerators which have to be built and operated with REAL money. In contrast, the reactors making the Mo-99/Tc-99m were built in the 50s and 60s with tax money, often as part of a nuclear-weapons program (Canada was making Plutonium for the US back then), and nobody remembers or cares what they cost, or how much the isotopes would cost if they came from a brand-new reactor. So organizations like Atomic Energy of Canada Limited (AECL) just set out to create and capture a "world-class" market and become famous for something other than building power reactors late and over-budget. And they succeeded. Money was basically no object, because they already had the reactor(s), and the rest could be financed with grants from taxpayers. So they sold the isotopes for a tiny fraction of their full cost, and created a large dependency. (I've heard that some dope peddlers actually give out free samples.)

The whole system is limping along now, rationing isotope supplies and using accelerator-made substitutes. And when this generation of old reactors finally gives up the ghost and (especially if) the Mo-99/Tc-99m business is taken over by somebody who cares about money and wants to make some, the system may adapt in different ways, to restrict Mo-99/Tc-99m to a smaller role in nuclear medicine.

I don't know if anybody here has been told that they SHOULD have a nuclear heart scan but it had to wait until Mo-99/Tc-99m was available. But it's definitely happened in many places in the world (including Canada and the US), and I don't think it's over yet.

BTW, in addition to being expensive and unsustainable at today's prices, the Mo-99/Tc-99m business is also very messy, leaving wastes behind that are highly radioactive and even fissionable. Chalk River still has a few tanks that have to be constantly stirred mechanically and warmed-and-agitated with injected steam, to make sure that the HEU in the tank doesn't precipitate out and create a critical mass(!).
 
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:tongue2:
And Dick is going to whack my knuckles for side-tracking again,:angel: ]

Naw, I turned over a new leaf this year and will try to be nicer:angel: I am sure the immigration issue could be a part of the problem, although here in Kentucky, it would be only a minor issue. I don't think the immigrants can get into our ERs......the unemployed Citizens using the ERs won't let them in:wink2:.
 
And I agree Dick. After a long discussion with my niece she suggested hospital ER's all have a fast track system as some do now. Depending upon the severity of the incoming patient, they are led toward the conventional admission or the fast track where they get immediate help. The big problem is that many folks use the ER just to get a prescription refill. We could probably use clinics for this and it'd save loads of money.
 
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Wow,
This is quite the thread and it has remained fairly focused and civil. Thank you.

Regarding comparisons of health coverage around the world, we need to standardize the true costs if we want to compare health care among our different countries, because more than likely some other group is covering another unseen portion of the true cost for our surgery, whether that group is our government (through taxes) or insurance (through premiums). In addition, the healthy people who don't use their coverage are subsidizing the costs of sick people (like us) in either system.

There was an amazing documentary on TV “Sick around the World” a few years ago that discussed how health care costs are handled in different countries and if you are really interested you can click on the link and watch it.

Check out the graphs that compare developed countries for % of GDP spent on Health care, life expectancy, infant mortality, and advanced medical equipment per capita.

See the comparison of how five developed countries deliver health care. The interesting thing that I learned was that so-called socialized medicine varies greatly. For example in some countries the government provides both the Insurance (taxes) and Health Care (government doctors)- such as in the UK and the Veterans Hospital in the US. In other countries the government may require that you pay into their Insurance pool (single payer) but the doctors and hospitals are private- Canada? Medicare in the US? The links above describe other systems in use throughout the world and a wealth of info for those interested in comparing systems.

Washington Post Article "5 myth comparing health care around the world"

Best,
John
 
Regarding comparisons of health coverage around the world, we need to standardize the true costs if we want to compare health care among our different countries,
John

Thanks John, yours is a very interesting post and provides a lot of "food for thought", especially for us USA folks. I think before we can compare our costs with the rest of the world, we are going to have to standarize our costs within our own neighborhoods. In Sept 2010 I stopped INR home testing in favor of going back to the doctors office. Since I made the change, I have been watching my insurance EOBs(Explanation of Benefits) and the cost results for a simple INR finger stick are amazing. All tests used the same model Coaguchek XS and all tests were done within the city limits of Louisville, KY. and all test were performed between Sept and Dec, 2010. The billed amounts ranged from $8.50(cardio INR clinic) to $33.00(PCP office) to $70.00(Alere home testing). The insurance company allowed $4.50(cardio), $12.12(PCP) and $29.94(Alere). Insurance paid 100% of Cardio and PCP allowable. They paid $23.95(80%) to Alere and I paid $5.99(20%). Now that the hospital owns my Cardio's clinic, I wonder what the next INR will cost.......I bet its a lot more than his current charge of $8.50, even though there is no change in location, nurse or epuipment used.
 
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It is really interesting. The majority of our citizens (by almost 2-1) are dissatisfied with our current health care system. At the same time the numbers almost completely reverse themselves if they have limited choice of doctors or waiting lists for non-emergency treatments. So it sounds like us Americans want to have our cake and it it too (never quite understood that phrase).

In an extensive ABCNEWS/Washington Post poll, Americans by a 2-1 margin, 62-32 percent, prefer a universal health insurance program over the current employer-based system. That support, however, is conditional: It falls to fewer than four in 10 if it means a limited choice of doctors, or waiting lists for non-emergency treatments.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/us/healthcare031020_poll.html

I think that is what I was trying to say earlier. Our health care system definitely needs changes made to it, but what are we citizens willing to sacrifice to make those changes. It reminds me of our budget deficit. Everyone agrees it is out of hand but not many people are willing to sacrifice "their piece of the pie" to reduce it. Same with health care. I just hope that whatever happens it happens by choice of the citizens of this country and not the lobbyists and bureaucrats in Washington not listening to the constituents that elected them. And by that I mean whether the current legislation stays the same, is repealed, or a compromise is made and it is amended I hope the legislators do whatever the people of our nation want them to do without thinking about party lines.

BTW I have been called a liberal conservative and a conservative liberal lol. Whenever I have taken that quiz you can take online however it always puts me in the libertarian piece of the pie. So I have an open mind but I do tend to lean towards smaller government. If we had a more efficient government I might think differently. We have had a lot of good programs come out of the government...now if we could just find someone to run them at a break even pace after the taxes that pay for them everything would be grand. ;)
 
Nifty stuff, John and Bryan. The Washington Post "5 myths" article seems right to me, and it generally reinforces my frustration with the state of US health care, as I stated way at the top: What's the use of being the richest and most powerful nation on earth. . . But I think the description of Canada is a smidge off. Our doctors are overwhelmingly self-employed professionals, getting paid per procedure, but our hospitals are overwhelmingly publicly owned and funded, with only a handful of exceptions (many of them bitter-fought, too!). At least that's how it works in Ontario. We may get more private hospitals some day soon, though many Canadians see that as the work of the Devil.

We get remarkable access to a remarkably fancy system, but we are also remarkably bound to stay within its confines. For example, when I offered to pay the estimated $500 extra cost to get my sternum closed up with Kryptonite Glue instead of SS wires, I was told that I'd be violating the Canadian Health Act (if that's its exact name). Universal access to health care, equal for rich and poor alike, is taken very seriously in Canada. OTOH, we are seeing an increasing number of private (and expensive and exclusive) health-care firms setting up business in Toronto -- including the Cleveland Clinic -- and I'm not sure exactly what they offer. Maybe they're allowed to do some consulting and diagnosis and testing here, but patients have to go South of the Border for actual "procedures" they may need? I don't know.
 
I would rather deal with my insurance company, than the government. I definitely do not feel comfortable with them taking over the health care industry. As far as Medicare, there are Dr's here that do not accept it. Maybe it is a good system for some, but on the other hand I know people that are not happy with it at all. It was my understanding that it was going broke? I believe there should be some changes in the Insurance industry. If our politicians were really serious about better health care, there would be TORT reform too.

Also,(what I am seeing were I live) we have a significant number of Medicaid patients. These people see the same Dr's I do.(which I believe is a good thing) If the system was that broken, how could that be?
 
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