Covid Vaccines

[pellicle]

Hi Quincy

. I only entered the discussion to defend a fellow member who was being lambasted for having the apparent audacity to admit that he was not going to get the vaccine for COVID-19, both because he was suspicious of the safety and efficacy of it

your wording here is curious ... I don't like it because

• its passive agressive
• it implies that he was a martyr
• it implies he was punished rather than simply robust discussion

Here is the problem as I see it

1. people feel that they can express any opinion (which they can) unchallenged (which won't happen)
2. people feel that because its their opinion that they have a right to tell others that its correct (no such right exists) without the other explaining why it is not right
3. having an opinion (no matter how strongly held) does not mean its correct
4. free speech is not a one way street

I believe that discussion only works when both parties involved actually listen with a willingness to accept the others words. If this condition does not exist then its not a discussion, its this:

Earlier I made you a genuine offer of answering any question you had about the covid vaccine issue. It was made with the same set of requisites I have laid down above. That offer still stands (if my later above post did not answer those questions on the "settled nature of the science"). As I believe I mostly do (in my actual life with people I know no more or less than are here), I will listen to your question and answer it as best I can. I can guarantee a respectful discussion from my side, but I will abandon it if I see that its not reciprocal.

Lastly I submit that this graph represents the nub of the issue with people who are holders of the theory that a conspiracy exists to lie about the information presented in science:

Best Wishes

 

[pellicle]

I kind of don't really care if people don't get vaccinated who don't want it as long as they're only risking themselves.

I would stand with you on that if it was not for the fact that the more of them that are doing that the less effective the vaccine can be because they will provide a pond of infection. (see Polio)

However the reality of the modern world and international travel assisting the spread of covid will mean that vaccinations and quarantine for travellers will persist for some years.

 

[cldlhd]

Hi Quincy


your wording here is curious ... I don't like it because

• its passive agressive
• it implies that he was a martyr
• it implies he was punished rather than simply robust discussion

Here is the problem as I see it

1. people feel that they can express any opinion (which they can) unchallenged
2. people feel that because its their opinion that they have a right to tell others that its correct (no such right exsits without the other explaining why it is not right
3. having an opinion does not mean its correct
4. free speech is not a one way street

I believe that discussion only works when both parties involved actually listen with a willingness to accept the others words. If this condition does not exist then its not a discussion, its this:
View attachment 887821

Earlier I made you a genuine offer of answering any question you had about the covid vaccine issue. It was made with the same set of requisites I have laid down above. That offer still stands (if my later above post did not answer those questions on the "settled nature of the science". As I believe I mostly do (in my actual life with people I know no more or less than are here), I will listen to your question and answer it as best I can. I can guarantee a respectful discussion from my side, but I will abandon it if I see that its not reciprocal.

Lastly I submit that this graph represents the nub of the issue with people who are holders of the theory that a conspiracy exists to lie about the information presented in science:

View attachment 887822


Best Wishes

So is the Dunning Kruger effect in play here?

 

[cldlhd]

I would stand with you on that if it was not for the fact that the more of them that are doing that the less effective the vaccine can be because they will provide a pond of infection. (see Polio)

However the reality of the modern world and international travel assisting the spread of covid will mean that vaccinations and quarantine for travellers will persist for some years.

I agree which is why I basically said if somebody refuses and available vaccine because a paranoia or politics then I'm not really too worried about them. That doesn't mean I wish them ill but it's their call on that end but my problem with it is it will aid in the virus remaining a problem worldwide for much longer. It will also make more variants much more likely which could pose an issue in the future. So basically if it only affected them I wouldn't care too much but I agree they should get it.

 

[pellicle]

So is the Dunning Kruger effect in play here?

that's sort of a harsh way to put it, but I'd prefer to put it not at the cognitive level but the amount of knowledge you have. If you tend towards accepting magical solutions then I guess that is part of what DK is about. I'd phrase it like this:

 

[pellicle]

That doesn't mean I wish them ill but it's their call on that

I didn't think you did ... and ... well I'm of the view that if people don't actually get to take responsibility for their calls then they'll never learn why they were wrong.

Life is not fair and life is not easy.

 

[cldlhd]

I didn't think you did ... and ... well I'm of the view that if people don't actually get to take responsibility for their calls then they'll never learn why they were wrong.

Life is not fair and life is not easy.

First of all Chernobyl was a good series, second of all life is not easy. I was putting it what we call a trailer hitch on my wife's Honda CRV yesterday in preparation for vacation in a month and the seam where the muffler is stamped put a nice slice through my left arm and took a good chunk out of it. I wanted to finish the job so I came in and flushed it out in the sink and stopped the bleeding with some of that stuff they use when you cut a dog's nails too short to stop the bleeding (styptic powder I believe it's called) then I wrapped it up and went out and finished the job. Had more work to do around the house so a little more than a day later I went to get a little professional medical attention. My son thought I was a little crazy but the wife is sort of used to it by now....

 

[pellicle]

My son thought I was a little crazy but the wife is sort of used to it by now....

LOL ... he'll come around too.

I've seen a mate of mine stitch up an arm gash with fishing line before going to ER.

 

[tezza]

You're welcome, in case you're wondering why I haven't had a vaccine shot yet its a combination of:

• government priorities
• australia having a slow roll out (about 10%)
• I live in the countryside and there are currently zero active cases in my state
• due to its isolation Australia has few cases (despite a great start in the race with the stupid government letting an entire cruise ship (with known cases) disembark in Sydney and spread it around)
• when I want to go OS I'll get whats current ... but its a mess with our current border and quarantine system (don't start me on my stupid governments views (which are equally stupid no matter which side is in))

:-D

Yep, the rollout in Australia is a bit of a debacle! I haven't had mine yet, I've been booked in for 2 months now, due to lack of supply, but really I'm still sitting on the fence due to my concerns over AstraZenica due to my platelets issue (thrombocytopenia) which all the medicos have assured me that it isn't a problem for me to have the AZ. I just still don't feel confident about it, and not sure I will go ahead, or wait for the Pfizer or not.

 

[pellicle]

AstraZenica due to my platelets issue (thrombocytopenia) which all the medicos have assured me that it isn't a problem for me to have the AZ. I just still don't feel confident about it, and not sure I will go ahead, or wait for the Pfizer or not.

its an interesting issue for sure, and IF there were many cases (any?) in the Queensland community and *because* you're on anticoagulants I'd suggest that its a risk worth taking (if the Pfizer was not available). However as it is I see no significant risk to you (or the community in Queensland) by deferring.

If you were planning a booze and sex tour to Thailand though I'd suggest reconsidering (either the trip or the vaccine).

 

[newarrior]

Well said Chuck. I saw posts, similar to these, splinter the original VR.com a few years back. Some well-experienced members split off and formed a separate group. This group may be teetering on the same cliff now. I alerted the Admin to take a look at the developing tone of this thread.......but no response so far.

Thanks man...Everyone should read the Power of Now, meditate, chill, do yoga, etc etc..That goes for myself as well)

 

[cldlhd]

Exactly, that is what happens since Baraka is back in power, old Joe is just a puppet and loves Maoist totalitariam regime not to mention how much Baraka loves the Castros....

Keep the nonsense on another site like Breitbart or something. I mean at least President Obama didn't "fall in love" with Kim jong un"....... sorry dick I couldn't help it

 

[cldlhd]

I am totally with you on the need for civility and science, Chuck. The problem is that those of us who choose not to get the vaccine are being ridiculed and criticized. It is not the other way around. I respect your decision to get the vaccine and I don’t judge you for it. And on top of that, this vaccine is not settled science, it is still experimental. And the virus itself is unsettled science, there is still too much about it that is unknown. I don’t think it is right for you to hold up science as your rationale for criticizing people that take an opposite position on this subject. And stop calling us conspiracy theorists just because we don’t have closed minds.

So it's your scientific opinion vs the CDC and virtually every governing medical body on earth? A good chunk of science isn't "settled" if by that you mean everyone agrees with it. Also , not specifically referring to you necessarily, a high percentage of the anti-vaccine posts tend to involve paranoid conspiracy stuff about the government trying to control you with it or blatantly political stuff. So I would disagree with your contention that the criticism and ridicule is in one direction.
Also you claim that another member was just unsure about whether to get the vaccine for medical reasons but that's not entirely true either. The other member that you're referring to, in their second post on the thread, started babbling about communism and socialism which was blatantly political and had nothing to do with the science regarding the vaccines

 

[cldlhd]

I have no "narrative" other than seeking the truth

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3789264
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.01.21252652v1
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/docume...ia-art53-visual-risk-contextualisation_en.pdf
https://www.who.int/news-room/featu...zeneca-covid-19-vaccine-what-you-need-to-know
Above the WHO claims 63% effectiveness, so while its not 100% (what is?) it is quite sufficient to bring the R value down significantly; sufficient for it to go from a major issue to an insignificant one.

position statement
When I need / am allowed to undertake international travel (I'm keen to go back to Finland) I will be seeking vaccination.

Lastly this chart shows how effectively that the USA has been reducing new cases since January 2021 ... I've popped in Australia for a laugh.

Lastly my view is this: if people (or people within organisations) conspire to hide something this is very difficult. If a theory is put forward that depends on such a conspiracy existing then to me that is a "conspiracy theory".

Clearly looking at that chart you included the United States was very piss poor at containing the spread of this virus. Part of it was our natural inclination of not wanting to be told what to do, unfortunately some people view taking precautions to prevent the spread of a deadly virus as stomping on their freedom. As if saving others lives isn't worth temporarily adjusting your daily life.... But on the bright side that clearly shows how effective the vaccine has been and the main reason my family and I are looking forward to our first real vacation in two years. Let's hope the world can get vaccinated sooner rather than later.

 

[carolinemc]

When we are talking about potentially life and death issues and we hear nonsense that contributes to these issues that is being rehashed by individuals that have limited understanding and poor critical thinking skills which ultimately leads to more sickness and death it is difficult not to come down too hard.
The sad part however is that none of this discussion will in any way change their opinions or behaviors.
So this disease will go on longer than need be and more people will be affected.
If over 500,000 deaths in the US from COVID is not enough to have people take pause about this, what will? Oh I forgot most of those died from something else.

Not a disease, it is a virus that will be here like the flu. it is sad that those who refuse to listen to sound medical science will be the ones to suffer the affects when they do contract the virus. In turn the old saying, can't lead a horse to water, holds true with those who never get the flu shot and now the Covid vaccines. Sad but true.

 

[carolinemc]

Clearly looking at that chart you included the United States was very piss poor at containing the spread of this virus. Part of it was our natural inclination of not wanting to be told what to do, unfortunately some people view taking precautions to prevent the spread of a deadly virus as stomping on their freedom. As if saving others lives isn't worth temporarily adjusting your daily life.... But on the bright side that clearly shows how effective the vaccine has been and the main reason my family and I are looking forward to our first real vacation in two years. Let's hope the world can get vaccinated sooner rather than later.

Well, you have watched the news about India, going on the third big spread and they are3 a third world country with poor medical care. Only we can pray that someday they too will get the vaccines they need to fight this virus. Millions worldwide have died from this and more dying everyday. And have fun on your vacation. I am stuck with a home vaca, but will be kept busy off an on, going through boxes of stuff from my move over a year ago and do some arts and crafts.

 

[carolinemc]

Your risk of dying from covid is a lot higher than your risk of dying from the vaccine. Explain to me what you mean by "gene therapy"

What he talking about in gene therapy, is that they are using a very old information and using it in the Catholic Church. That they are using aborted babies to create the vaccine. They tend to ignore the Scientific Medical updated information on the vaccines. So sad.

 

[user 16827]

Not a disease, it is a virus

 

[carolinemc]

QuincyRunner, I appreciate your sentiment. But, I do believe that your narrative of events represents some gaslighting of the actual events that unfolded.

Let’s go back to the original post that started this thread- a question, seeking feedback from those with experience who have taken the vaccine:

Kimdougc started the thread by asking the question:

“I am supposed to get my "shot" on Thursday. Have any other members got the covid vaccine and how did it go? Just wondering with a mechanical heart valve what others that have received the vaccine how it went?”

A couple of anti-vaxxers then used this question as an open invitation to enter the thread and spread false information about Covid-19 and the vaccines. Their false information, having been roundly debunked by the science, was rightfully challenged by other members here.

I will agree with you that it is not appropriate to accuse people of being in a certain political party, supporting a particular politician or listening to a particular news station. I have seen these accusations coming from both sides of the vaccine debate and you will note that I have not done this. 1) I have no evidence of which leader you support or news channel you watch 2) Even if I did have such knowledge, I don’t find it helpful to go there.

We are much better off if we keep our criticisms to the statements made on the thread, without speculating on other political matters about the person making such statements. I have tried to limit my challenges to the information presented on these threads.

To be clear, to make such false statements is not innocent behavior that should be respected and left alone. It is not just a matter of one person making a personal choice of whether or not to take the vaccine, when the line is crossed into posting anti-science conspiracy falsehoods on these boards. People look to these boards to influence life and death decisions and if such nonsense were allowed to stand unchallenged, it could do harm.

There are plenty of spaces out there on the internet where such anti-science conspiracy views can be shared unchallenged and where it would be welcome. But, this should never be one of those places.

“I just hope that the next time I have a comment about endocarditis or my mechanical heart valve that we can leave these differences behind.”

Without any hesitation, you have my unconditional commitment to not hold your views on vaccines against you in any discussion on heart valve issues, should you comment on future threads. And, if someone responds to one of your comments listing multiple false statements, whether it be about endocarditis, mechanical valves or any other heart valve topic, I believe you will find that the members here who are able to recognize those statements as false will challenge them vigorously, just as was observed with the false statements made about vaccines and Covid-19 on this thread.

Most people that are here, do not care to politize our heart problems. But there are those who live in the politics of everything, come here to rattle us. They cannot read the rules to this thread that says leave the politics out of the room. But these people love to lurk and cause problems. Just ignore them and they will go away. So glad that you are getting the Vaccines. I got mine back in February and no real problems, only last 12 hours and a good sleep.

 

[carolinemc]

I am very sorry that this topic became so contentious, mainly because this forum is not the place for it. I only entered the discussion to defend a fellow member who was being lambasted for having the apparent audacity to admit that he was not going to get the vaccine for COVID-19, both because he was suspicious of the safety and efficacy of it and because his doctor suggested that he was at minuscule risk of catching the virus. Then, as a result of his responses to the criticism, which were judged by many here to be inadequate and spurious, he received further condemnation which has now been redirected to me for not going along with the groupthink that I am rather surprised to see on this site. Despite being a minority on this forum, there are many people, including doctors and nurses whom I personally know who share my concerns about the vaccine and who wisely guard their suspicions. I have said all I am going to say on this subject and I will not be drawn into a never ending defense of my views with people who cannot abide a diversity of opinion and who will accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist, a trump nut, or a shill for Fox News. I have not shared my political views and I prefer not to hear yours. I just hope that the next time I have a comment about endocarditis or my mechanical heart valve that we can leave these differences behind.
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it is due to the fact that people forget the rules about no political talk is not allowed on these boards and they tend to bash people for thinking differently than the rest of us. I pray that these bullies learn that it is better to go elsewhere to talk politics, for this is not the place to do it. So sad when people bully others for a different thinking on vaccines and bash people for getting the vaccine. Sad.