St judes mechanical valve

[Homeskillet]

I take both 100mcg K1 and 45mcg k2 daily and I’ve used the k1 in the past as a bit of an experiment to lower my inr when its been high. 1000mcg dropped it 1.0 inr point but it took 3 days to fully drop and then head up again.

Aside from the usual inr changes and dose adjustments pretty consistantly my daily dose is 9mg daily and has been for several years even prior the vit k.

From another site this explains the vit k supplementation well- “Many people taking Coumadin use the Low Dose Vitamin K Technique, which involves taking low dose Vitamin K supplements (always consult with your doctor before changing your diet or taking supplements!). Here's how it works. For example, on Monday you take your Vitamin K supplement of 100 mcg and eat 50mcg of Vitamin K. That is a total of 150mcg of Vitamin K on Monday. On Tuesday, you take your Vitamin K supplement of 100mcg and eat 100mcg of Vitamin K. That is a total of 200mcg of Vitamin K on Tuesday. From Monday to Tuesday, your Vitamin K total went up by 33%. Now, let's say you didn't take a Vitamin K supplement at all, but still ate 50mcg on Monday, and 100 mcg on Tuesday, then your Vitamin K total would have gone up by 100%! By taking a daily low dose Vitamin K supplement your total Vitamin K changes less day-to-day. Hence, your Warfarin dosages will change less often and your INR will be more consistent."

Ok—makes sense. Much appreciated.

 

[Homeskillet]

K2 I believe

K1 will influence your INR (and is what hospitals give you as a reversal of anti-coagulation_

Got it. Now on to Amazon to locate their best seller.

 

[Warrick]

Its normally cheap as chips, $22 here for 3 months of k1 and around the same for k2, I buy a k2d3 combination

 

[pellicle]

Got it. Now on to Amazon to locate their best seller.

Vadim knows his stuff:
Great article on Vitamin K Supplementation and Anticoagulation Control

 

[ERO]

My husband has the same valve and we were surprised at how loud it is. He takes a beta blocker which he says quiets it down a bit. He takes a shower when the ticking really starts to bother him. He says that's the only time he can't hear it. Good luck with everything!

 

[Protimenow]

I was taking K2-D3 combination (I got it at VitaminShoppe for a few dollars). My wife urged me to stop it - she thinks that all K affects INR - it doesn't, but I discontinued it to ease her mind. I've changed a medication, so I'll see if it has any effect on my INR. If not, or if I stablize my doese if it does, I'll probably return to K2-D3.

 

[user 15848]

I was taking K2-D3 combination (I got it at VitaminShoppe for a few dollars). My wife urged me to stop it - she thinks that all K affects INR - it doesn't, but I discontinued it to ease her mind. I've changed a medication, so I'll see if it has any effect on my INR. If not, or if I stablize my doese if it does, I'll probably return to K2-D3.

Hi, Keep taking them, is good for many things, i am on them for 5 years now.
K2 is "really" important, and have nothing to do with INR/Vit-K, some doctors
do not know the difference, so , just read about it; "mine" didnt know the difference
till i explained.

 

[Protimenow]

Thanks for the advice. Yes, I'm aware of health benefits of Vitamin K2. Recent research suggests that K1 is okay when taken with warfarin and may make it easier to establish and maintain a stable INR - as long as the dosage compensates for the pro-coagulation effects of the vitamin.

I MAY go back to it. I see little to lose.

And, yes, many (most?) medical professionals see the words 'Vitamin K' and assume that ANY Vitamin K will lower INR.

 

[Homeskillet]

Okay—not to belabor the point, but I started looking at K-2 (I already have a ton of D-3 gel caps), but I noticed the warning to consult with a Dr., especially if taking warfarin.

As you can view in the link below this product also warns to make sure & stop taking the K-2 two weeks prior to any surgery...which infers to me that there can be additional bleeding risks.

Here’s the product: https://www.amazon.com/NOW-Vitamin-K-2-100-Capsules/dp/B0013EJ5QM

Just curious regarding additional bleeding risks from K-2 before I spend the $$.

 

[Thomas]

Just curious regarding additional bleeding risks from K-2 before I spend the $$.

There are others on this forum much smarter than me and I'm totally open to correction on this but I think you're interpreting it incorrectly. There is a higher risk of developing a clot not bleeding when supplementing with K2.
I found a short article to read. It gives an easy to read analysis of vitamin K1&2 & how it interacts with warfarin.
https://innovixlabs.com/blogs/insights/vitamin-k2-and-coagulation.

 

[tom in MO]

Okay—not to belabor the point, but I started looking at K-2 (I already have a ton of D-3 gel caps), but I noticed the warning to consult with a Dr., especially if taking warfarin.

As you can view in the link below this product also warns to make sure & stop taking the K-2 two weeks prior to any surgery...which infers to me that there can be additional bleeding risks.

Here’s the product: https://www.amazon.com/NOW-Vitamin-K-2-100-Capsules/dp/B0013EJ5QM

Just curious regarding additional bleeding risks from K-2 before I spend the $$.

I am on warfarin and my cardio wants me to check in with them if I start taking any supplements or new drugs. With drugs I usually just ask the prescribing doctor if it plays well with warfarin and then check the insert. I do some work in the pharmaceutical industry. I don't do supplements, but if I did, since they aren't prescribed, I'd be asking my cardio's nurse or their Coumadin Clinic if it plays well with warfarin.

 

[tom in MO]

There are others on this forum much smarter than me and I'm totally open to correction on this but I think you're interpreting it incorrectly. There is a higher risk of developing a clot not bleeding when supplementing with K2.
I found a short article to read. It gives an easy to read analysis of vitamin K1&2 & how it interacts with warfarin.
https://innovixlabs.com/blogs/insights/vitamin-k2-and-coagulation.

Thomas, Don't forget the disclaimer from this web page:

These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

DISCLAIMER
This website is for educational and informational purposes only. The ideas, opinions and suggestions contained on this website are not to be construed as medical advice. If you have, or suspect you may have, a medical condition you should seek advice from a licensed health care practitioner. Readers of this website should not rely on the information provided or contained herein as a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis or treatment from your doctor for any health condition or problem. Users of this website should not rely on information provided on this website for their own health problems. Any questions or concerns regarding your own health should be addressed to your own physician. You should not start or stop any medications, diet or exercise plan without first consulting with your doctor. We neither encourage you to do so, nor are we liable for the failure to seek medical advice from the appropriate licensed medical health practitioner.

 

[Protimenow]

There are online resources that will indicate some (but not all, for the supplements) interactions with Warfarin. If you ask your doctor or anticoaglation clinic about interactions, it's possible that they'll be aware of some of the major supplements that interact, but they may go to the same online resources that you do.

What I do is simpler: if I'm curious about the effects of a supplement on my INR, I test my blood - maybe the next day., maybe two or three days after starting it, and maybe with my weekly test. If you haven't changed diet or other medications during that time period, it's probably safe to assume that a) there's probably no interaction, b) it appears that there IS an interaction or c) it's possible - recheck after a few more days.

Sometimes actual evidence, based on self-testing is more valuable than published 'guesses.' Plus, you'll know about how YOUR body handles the supplement.

(I've used this testing procedure when I switch to warfarin from a different manufacturer - sometimes pharmacies like to switch to the 'lowest bidder.' In one case, I had a generic that I couldn't adjust the dosage for. It didn't depend on what dosage I used - this generic clearly did not work for me. I wouldn't have known this if I didn't validate the effeciveness or the ability to control my INR -- and it required selkg testing to reveal this)

 

[Homeskillet]

Okay—got it. Think I will check with my Coumadin clinic before trying this.

Much appreciated.

 

[pellicle]

you already know what their answer will be ...

Okay—got it. Think I will check with my Coumadin clinic before trying this.

 

[user 15848]

There is no functional relation between coagulation and K2, nothing to do with K1 ,
just read about it if you will, and you will find the science behind it since you want
to argue about it, other than that, if you want to be right, so be it, this is just a sharing place'

 

[Protimenow]

I'm not sure about the arguing stuff going on. Yes, K2 is entirely different from K1, it has no effect on warfarin's functions, but I wonder, somethimes, about how well they isolate K2 from K1 (or if they use different sources). I certainly don't want any K1 in my K2. That's my only concern about it. (I'll have to look up where they're getting the K2, and see if there's any possibility of a crossover with K1).

 

[ScribeWithALancet]

I'm not sure about the arguing stuff going on. Yes, K2 is entirely different from K1, it has no effect on warfarin's functions, but I wonder, somethimes, about how well they isolate K2 from K1 (or if they use different sources). I certainly don't want any K1 in my K2. That's my only concern about it. (I'll have to look up where they're getting the K2, and see if there's any possibility of a crossover with K1).

I accidentally misread the dosage on my wife's K2 pills and was off by a factor of 100. I took them for several days. My next INR at the lab dropped from 3 to 1.5. I stopped taking them and increased my warfarin in conjunction with my coumadin clinic's recommendation. After a week, my INR shifted significantly upward. Then after a second week, it shifted significantly upward again. Rereading the label, the K2 was half K2 mk7 and half K2 mk4. Reading on the internet, MK4 has a half life of about a week. MK7 has a half life of aout 2 weeks which is why it is supposed to be better for bone strength. Protime's remark about "your meter is your friend" is the way to approach it.

Right now I am still in the process of rigorously correlating my meter with the Lab Test measurements. When I am done with that, probably this summer, I will revisit K2 and treat the mk4 and mk7 in two different sequences with different pills.

Note: K2 mk4 is present in grass fed meats and dairy products. Also in free range and pasture raised chicken to a very large extent and in all chicken products (and eggs) to a lesser extent. Because the extent of "grass fed" may change from Spring to Summer to Fall to Winter, if you eat meat, eggs or dairy, check frequently. As the seasons change so will the amount of K1 and K2 you eat.

Again, your meter is your friend. I plan on taking the smallest pill size I can find, splitting it in two and incrementing very slowly to see whether I can find a good dose that does not affect my INR significantly. I also need to find out whether the two week half life for mk7 is accurate because I do not wish to have to wait for two weeks if K2 mk7 does affect my INR signficantly.

Again, many thanks to the many members of this forum for their tips on how they use their meters. My meter as currently calculated predicts the Lab INR within 0.15 units most of the time even though it is off - before the regression equation the difference between the meter is 0.2 to 0.4 units. The charts of the three data series
1) Coag-Sense INR,
2) Lab INR,
3) Predicted Lab INR based on Coag-Sense INR
move in lockstep up and down. Statistics is wonderful. Many thanks to the University of Utah Anti-Coagulation Clinic for publishing papers on how to do this and pointing out that it is Statistics 101 stuff that can be calculated and plotted in Microsoft XL or Apple Numbers.
See what you doctors and pharmacist say and then approach it very gradually. I did that with K1 and it worked. The approach, especially with your meter, should work perfectly. I have adapted to several medicines and supplements that are supposed to interfere with Coumadin by this approach (albeit, before I had my Coag-Sense). After getting my meter, I adapted Protime's approach described above and it works. Small mid-course adjustments with minimal to no rebound effects are much better then big adjustments with possible big rebound effects.
Walk in Peace,
Scribe With a Lancet

 

[Protimenow]

I've read about others using regression analysis to predict the lab results, based on meter results.

I've had enough experience with labs to questino their accuracy. A regression analysis may work very well with the same lab - a reputable one whose results you trust - but it won't work with other labs. I wouldn't want to use regression analysis just to be able to predict the results from a lab that isn't accurate, or that reports an abnormally high result.

You've got to trust the lab, rely on its continual accuracy, and then decide if it's worth going through a regression analysis to attempt to match the lab values.

FWIW - when I was testing with both Coag-Sense and CoaguChek XS, the average of the two meters frequently predicted the lab's result. (That was when I went to a UCLA lab, which I trusted, or a UCLA anticoagulation clinic that sometimes used blood draws, but more frequently used Hemochron - a device used in operating rooms to provide results that may have been used for life or death choices by the surgeons.

Without regression analysis, or a lab that I completely trust, I'll continue to trust my Coag-Sense to be within .2 or so of a good lab's result.

 

[Protimenow]

Don't feel badly about misreading the dosage of K1. I've also made that mistake. We get so used to reading the number on the bottle that we don't consider the units associated with the numbers. If you're taking 30 mcg of K2, it'll be damned hard to get 30 mg of the stuff (without taking a LOT of those low dosage pills).