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Just wanted to mention that my husband has had those 3 reoperations, even though he has mechanical valves, and it's something that you wouldn't want to do with great enthusiasm. Each operation takes a HUGE physical toll. I don't care what the cutters say. It's easy for them and they can do it and have good outcomes, and it is a necessary thing if it is needed. But in lots of circumstances, you should really weigh ALL the issues including what repeat trauma does to one's body as you age.

This is something that there is scant literature about in the medical field. It needs to be researched much, much more.

So when you are considering a tissue valve, please think about how you will feel 20-30 years later and older and possibly sicker when faced with a reop. And then also go to Al Lodwick's website and read the entire site, about Coumadin. warfarinfo.com

Another factor is that your cardiologist will want you to go into additional reops with a very, very, very good reason, translation-you will have many more symptoms than you had the first time around. Risk to benefit ratio come into play here.
 
Having gone through two AVR surgeries, I am somewhat amazed and a bit concerned over the almost cavalier attitude regarding repeat surgeries...especially from those who haven't experienced it even once. I would wish OHS for anyone just ONCE to save their lives.
 
Ross,

You are absolutely right. Every circumstance is different. I should probably consider myself very fortunate that my major complication after surgery was a case of A-Fib. My uncle had valve replacement at 62 and he hopes it was his last. On the flip side, my 88 year-old roommate at Mass General was making me feel a little guilty as he was coming along faster than I was ( Up and on the phone a 1 1/2 days after surgery). Hard to say which straw any patient will draw.

This was my second surgery as well. I had the first over 30 years ago and came through that one OK. I got to expereince the vast changes in medical science over that time period and I hope 15 years from now we have gone through additional changes. I think having a fairly positive experience the first time around helped me move in the tissue direction. I would have felt differently if that were not the case.

I have tried to keep myself in good shape and I think that may be helping me this time around. I was working out until a week before surgery. Not sure if it helped, but I'm going with it did. I plan to keep it up until my next surgery.

I tried to stress in my posting that this was not an easy decision for me, but I am happy with the direction. As a matter of fact, it was one of the hardest decisions of my life.

This is a great forum for patients and their family and friends. I look forward to reading and posting in the future.
 
What you have mentioned regarding cardiac surgeons with valve replacements having tissue valves implanted has been brought up here before. I have never seen each of their reasons discussed. But I have thought about it and am throwing this out just to further this discussion, because I believe those who are making this kind of life changing choice should ponder all sides of the issue.

We must all remember that these wonderful men and ladies are in a profession which uses very sharp instruments on a daily basis. They use electric saws, very sharp scalpels, needles, and other instruments and are using them in a situation which has some limitations on the view and dexterity.

Maybe their choice of valves has something to do with the fact that they do not want to take any additional risk of possibly contaminating the surgical field if they were to nick themselves. Granted, even without Coumadin, something like that could happen, but with Coumadin, the bleeding could go on longer and might be even more profuse.

So I wouldn't read too much into their choice of valves as something that one should make their decisions on.

I think if one were in the surgical profession, tissue valves would be the choice to make and also for others who might be in a profession which could cause bleeding accidents to happen. And of course, for those who just plain want a tissue valve.
 
Research

Research

Adonis67 said:
Great points. I concur.

Something to note: Of the 20+ cardiac surgeons (all in their 50's) in the US who themselves have had AVR, 100% chose a tissue valve.

REALLY? I do a lot of research on the early history of heart valves and the hardest part is is getting a inclusive statment like the one above. Who is the authority for certifying this information ie. are you sure there are no cardiac
surgeon who have mech. valves. I have tried for months to get a doctor who claims to be the longest surviving heart valve recipient, to respond to my emails and I get nothing. My experience with doctors responding to even a simple email has been awful. The dr. in question has even been written
about in the Journal Of Cardiology- they had no responds to my questions.
Pardon me, but I am just a little cynical about a statement like this, and the orginal attribution.
 
By way of trying to keep jjputz in this thread...

There are three main reasons why this thread is discussing lay opinions of xenografts and the reoperation that eventually goes with it.

One is the question of whether ACT would be appropriate for jjputz's continued health. I would point out his leg crush injury with symptomatic vascular damage, and his propensity toward bruising (possible independent coagulation/vascular issue). These are primary concerns that should be addressed before he is committed to permanent anticoagulation therapy, if possible. I'm not sure what type of specialist can help in the determination of how appropriate warfarin use would be in his case, but they must understand warfarin and should have some vascular background. Any thoughts?

Second is the fact that he presents with aortic root enlargement. If they're not planning to handle that in this surgery, then it becomes a likely cause for future resurgery. It seems that the main benefit of the mechanical valve is wasted, if the person is going to be reoperated before thirty years have passed. Warfarin ACT for a valve is really only worth it when its use is a tradeoff against resurgery.

Third is that jjputz is interested in knowing if the use of a biological valve is possible, because he has not been offered that choice so far. He came here and asked us for information about it in the lead post for this thread. He is making a decision that affects his entire life, beginning less than three weeks from now. His cardiologists have already failed to discuss any other possibilities with him in any meaningful way. I have sympathy for this, because mine did the same thing. I know there are people on this site who have lamented not having had the opportunity before surgery to make an informed decision.

The use of a mechanical valve has already been heavily supported by his physicians. It is not going unsung. As far as the risks of reoperation: unless you have a special health situation, the risks of interval reoperations are documented to be equal to the risks of daily Coumadin use.

A couple of question suggestions for your surgeon: Does he see a value in acting on the dilated aortic root during this surgery? If not, what is his guess about it causing a resurgery later? What does he believe your heart will gain by waiting until the root is further dilated before replacing it?

If he is placing a valve on an enlarged aortic root, he may want to use a mechanical to avoid leakage (regurgitation) caused by the dilating root deforming the flexible tissue valve. However, if you are very strongly motivated for a tissue valve, and he is agreeable, he may consider replacing the root at this time as well to allow for that. You might point out the limited value of dealing with ACT if you're going to be reopened later, and the added complexity of bridging for the resurgery.

There are a variety of valve products, both mechanical and xenograft, that are meant to deal with the dilated root problem. There is also the homograft mentioned by D-mac and which you had originally asked your cardiologist about. I wouldn't give up on that. Your surgeon may have a different viewpoint on them than that unusual opinion espoused by your cardiologist.

There are Dacron and velour sleeves that replace portions of the aorta (your own tissue grows through and over the fabric until it becomes "yours"), there are St. Judes Masters Series setups that include everything from a mechanical valve right through the sleeve. There are xenograft Freestyles, Hancock IIs, and combinations of sleeving with more traditional style valves (e.g. Magna or Mosaic) that can be fashioned during the surgery. Not new, untested stuff - techniques that have been in use for years in cardiac surgery.

We have one person on this site who actually had a long-lasting valve successfully fashioned from her own dura mater by the surgeon on a stainless frame during the surgery. Not only is that an astonishing feat, but it was done quite a few years ago.

Best wishes,
 
Thank you all for your input

Thank you all for your input

I Know from the get go that I wanted the tissue valve. But with what the cardiologist were telling me I needed some good arguments. I think my biggest fear of the Mechanical Valve and the anticoagulation therapy is my Uncle Joe- who had a stroke and was crippled in a wheel chair for 15 years till he died.
That is not my idea of living - I'd rather be left on the table.
Granted, you could have a stroke with a tissue valve but with my bad leg I would think the chances are a bit lower.
Also, I wonder why the Cardiologist's seem to recommend the mechanical valve.
I work with a few PhD?s in research of solar panels (lots of sharp glass), and the one thing I've noticed is PhD?s hate to be wrong.
One reason Cardiologist may recommend the mechanical valve is that way they won't be wrong- and you probably won't die because of the mechanical valve - statistically sound advice.
Now I might be pessimist assuming this - and I'm not a Doctor, but I am entitled to my own opinion.
And these days who could blame them (CYA).
I?m not saying at this point I would refuse a mechanical valve ? but he?ll really have to sell it.
And I?m not being cavalier about the 2nd operation but in my case you have to get to it. Also my wife and her friends are nurses ? they have to take care of patients on ACT - plus they know me and are steering me towards the tissue.
Tobagotwo - I really appreciate the time you and all the others took for your posts your all a great bunch ? I feel warm and fuzzy (LOL).
When I see the Surgeon next week at least I?ll have some intelligent questions to ask him that I didn?t know to ask before. I was clueless about my Aorta having to be repaired they didn?t even mention it.
 
I went back and forth many, many times on this. I found out in July I needed surgery and did not give an answer until one week before my surgery on November 30th. I waffled more than a political candidate. Remember too that I had known for 40 years that this was going to happen ( just not when) I did all the research........Ross.....homograft........tissue etc for years. It was still hard. My first insinct was tissue and after lots of study I went with that.

I was concerned with telling my surgeon as he was leanining towards mechanical. When I told him he was more than supportive. I was pleasantly surprised. As a matter of fact I had three cardiologists involved and they all supported me because it was MY decision.

Also know that when you wake up get 100% behind your choice.

Take all this great debate and ultimately make your own decision. If this were easy we would not be talking for the past how many hours on what we think is best.
 
If you think this discussion is long, here's a link to a much older thread which has an exhaustive discussion of valve choice. This is one of the most discussed topic on this site. There are many, many threads on valve selection in the archives. Just do a search on various valve types and it will bring up all the older threads.

http://valvereplacement.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304&highlight=Making+choice
 
One thing I'd like to interject here, I'm always hearing people say they are afraid of Coumadin therapy. I'd like to let those of you know that do not take it, that it is not the monster that so many make it out to be. 90% of the horror stories you hear are false. To this day, the medical field still does not understand the basics and continue to spread this fear for unfounded reasons.

I, as well as many others here take it and it's not interrupting my life in the least. It's just like taking a vitamin in the morning, just another pill. Sure, having your INR tested all the time isn't something I consider fun, but it has to be, so why sweat it. You can have a stroke more so without Coumadin then with it! No one is exempt from this. Heck you can have a stroke just from surgery alone-Still want to go through it multiple times? I guarantee that's a bigger risk then taking Coumadin will ever be.

I invite anyone who has heard all this disinformation propaganda about Coumadin to go and REALLY READ Al Lodwicks site and put much of this myth in the trash can. www.warfarinfo.com

I still laugh to this day at some of the stuff on his "Wall of Shame" because I've actually heard some of these things from some well respected people.

Go get an idea of what I mean!
http://www.warfarinfo.com/outrageous.htm
 
So true Ross. Joe's been on it close to 28 years. He's had side effects from almost all of his other multiple drugs, but not from Coumadin. He's had problems with Lovenox, but not from Coumadin. And he's been up, down and all around the horn with his INR over those many years.

He takes it along with everything else, goes for his tests and forgets about it.

In his life it is just a minor, minor inconvenience, his medical conditions are the major inconvenience, not Coumadin.

You DO have to have someone knowledgeable monitoring your INR, but there are also many other drugs out there which require careful monitoring.
 
It's interesting...Those posting in this thread who are not on Coumadin have propagated the most "awareness" of the dangers...
 
Peter Easton Thread

Peter Easton Thread

Thus, you are introduced (see Nancy's last post) to the famous "Peter Easton Thread," a monument at its time (less than four years ago), excellent and thoughtful arguments.

There are cautions that must now go with the thread, though. In this short period of time, many improvements have occured in all segments of valve replacements.

Results for Ross procedures are now separated by the type of surgery done, as a different method of implantation has proven much more succcessful than the original method whose numbers were still in use then.

Mechanical valves have improved in terms of hemodynamics, with better bloodflows, less damage to blood cells (hemolysis), even lower clotting potential for some types. Actual mechanical failures of mechanical valves are extremely rare now.

Xenograft (a.k.a. biological) valves have improved immensely, with major preservation and anticalcification improvement introductions, even in the last eighteen months.

While these changes are for the good, they do change the essential balance of the equations so carefully considered then as they are now.

For example, the figures given for mechanical valve/Anticoagulation Therapy (ACT) morbidity in the article in the link given by Peter ( http://www.hsforum.com/stories/storyReader$1472 ) are 4% - 8%. I doubt you'd get much agreement with those figures now. You're likely to get more concurrence when you describe a combined mechanical valve/ACT rate somewhere in the 2% - 4% level, depending on how the figures are compiled.

The rate is combined mortality, mostly from thromboses thrown by the mechanical valve despite warfarin therapy and from bleeding events attributed to warfarin therapy. This is one of the reasons that it is improper - although we frequently do it - to focus on the Coumadin end of the equation, when more than half of the problems are actually due to what happens in spite of the warfarin, rather than because of it.

But this, too, is changing, because of apparently lower surface reactivity and design improvements in some new models of mechanical valves (e.g. the On-X). These improvements are not in the numbers yet. Plus, we will begin to see a new series of statistics begin to show. While traditionally staged to a younger age group for avoidance of reoperations, mechanical valves have been so viable in patients that we will see the general population of mechanical valvers age significantly over the next decade. This is good, inthat it means that these people are a living success story. But it will change some numbers and comparisons, particularly in relation to biologicals, which have traditionally been placed in an older population.

Xenografts are generally described in the Easton thread as showing significant deterioration at the ten-year mark. That research data was actually old even then, and is no longer the case (with the probable exception of younger patients, for whom we still await documentation). Even the previous version of the bovine valve has a track record that averages its useful life at 18-22 years, and the top porcines at 15-18 years.

So, take in the sense of the thread, but be cautious of the numbers.

It seems as if every time we turn a page or click on a link, something new is being added to the valve replacement lexicon, something has been substantially improved, or something has been obviated. Because of the nature and rapidity of these changes, our discourse here today on valve choices, as earnest, heartfelt, hopefully accurate, and truly necessary as it is, will likely be just so much heat on the page in only a few years.

And then we'll do it all over again.

Until then, here's to learning, discussion, understanding, choice, and most of all to support of those who have had, shared in, or will undergo this life-changing, life-saving surgery. Solidarnosc!

Best wishes,
 
Adonis67 said:
I cannot cite the source, apologies for that, but I can guarantee that the data on cardiac surgeons choosing tissue exclusively as their AVR valve of choice is 100% genuine and true.
I hate to disagree, but I don't think you can. If what you say about not being able to cite to source is true, then all you can really guarantee is
your memmory- that is you believe it to be true. There is a big difference.
I don't even think you can guarantee premise of the statement, because of the obvious problem of proving a negative, ie is there is one surgeon out there
with a mech. valve, the statement is false on it's face. How does one survey
something like this and be sure all data is inclusive. As for research, the phrase "I guarantee" is as rare as the phrase " the charge on the electron is
subject to change".

Ross and Les- you noticed that too! The funny thing about it is the statement seem to be made in any other section rather then the Coumadin Section where the misstatement get slapped down by AL.

Just to throw something in the mix that somehow fails to mentioned by all
the "pro-tisser" here is the statistic that 25% of tissue AVR will be on warfarin
after ten years and 60 % of the MVR will be on warfarin. This figured was used in a group discussion by some of the leading cardiologist and surgeons in the U.S. I showed copy this discussion to all the drs. who examined me at
CC this last June and they all agreed it was statistically sound.

I think someone mentioned that their dr. give them a 51% weighty odds in favor of a mech. valve- in other words you may as well flip a coin.

I just wish that more research dollars were going in to what is the real solution- Valves that will grown out of our own heart cells.
 
Die20Thread20Die.jpg


:D
 
Without quibbling over numbers, I certainly agree with you in general, RCB, on the warfarin issue.

However, there are some qualifications that should be added for understanding.

The average tissue recipient is over sixty-five (older than the average mechanical valve owner), and warfarin is a relatively common addition for general population patients over age seventy for stroke avoidance. Sixty-five plus ten years puts those recipients well into in that general population.

Most of the discussion in the recent forums seems to be around the use of tissue valves in younger patients (often in their early fifties), who would not fall into that age category. The use of warfarin in these younger patients would be a much smaller percentage, and mainly for cases involving atrial fibrillation or other arrhythmias that can be causes for thromboses.

The INR of warfarin prescribed for tissue valvers (or non-valvers, for that matter) is usually much lower than that used for mechanical valves. It is usually not life-threatening if the person has poor compliance, something of which most mechanical valves are not very tolerant. And it can be "turned off" for other medical procedures or contraindicated prescriptions if needed, without the level of trepidation that would accompany stopping or bridging the warfarin of a mechanical valve user.

After all, it is the valve itself that produces the stroke risk, not the lack of Coumadin, and the valve has to remain where it is. The warfarin is there to counteract the risk produced by the valve.

I agree, too, with your mention of what I liked to call the "Chia valve." The most nearly successful version of that was a scaffold of denucleated pig collagen, on which your own arterial cells were grown under pressure. They eventually entirely replaced the collagen, and were capable of growth in children. They appeared successful when implanted in lambs. Unfortunately, the initial human implants were not successful long-term. I can't remember the name of it, but I believe CryoLife may have been the company involved. The timing was fortunate for me, as I was desperate for one of those valves, and the testing for them was derailed before I was ready. I am not aware that any of those valves are still in patients, but I still believe it is the best approach I have ever heard to revalving.

That said, there's certainly nothing wrong with choosing a mechanical valve. Many have lived very well with a mechanical valve and Coumadin. You are obviously a prime example of that, having survived some of the earliest of science's visions of the perfect, man-made heart valve. My hat's off to you as the original Survivor.

Best wishes,
 
If you search the site for Cryolife you may pull up some of the folks who had one implanted. At the time, there was a great deal of discussion regarding these valves.
 
My mind was made up a while back!

My mind was made up a while back!

Hi there, I'm a 39 year-old Brazilian who has already been through 3 mitral valve replacements as a result of rheumatic fever in the early seventies. Well, nearly a year ago, after getting an echo done, I learned that my tissue valve is narrowing again and my first reaction to the news was pure panic. However, a few weeks later, I became a member of this brilliant site which I've been visiting regularly since then. Here I've found all the emotional support necessary in order to come to terms with the whole issue, as well as all the great information on all the questions I've had so far. Anyway, after having weighed the pros and cons of getting either a mech valve put in next time, or opt for yet another tissue one, I've chosen tissue despite the risks of a fifth surgery in the future. I know it might sound crazy to some of the folks here who have been very helpful by providing great information regarding coumadin and all that, but like everyone says, it's a very personal choice and although there isn't such a thing as a perfect valve, each of us can only go by what he/she believes to be the most suitable for him/ her. I want to wish all of you a very happy New Year!

Débora from Brazil :)
 

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