Let's set some goals! A throwdown!

[Superman]

Hey, guys, ain't stress great! For the past 3 months, I have been a 24/7 caretaker for my wife as she struggles to recover from a hip fractured when she fell. I mean I do everything -- cook, clean, obtain and apply medicines, get up about every 2 hours during the night to help her, etc etc. The weight-loss bonus: I am down at least 25 pounds -- maybe more b/c I only weigh occasionally. The reward: I am now wearing jeans two sizes smaller in the waist and I am ordering them like crazy from Amazon prime, with delivery the next day.

My dear wife is fighting through numerous complications and some of her home health care nurses have suggested she go into hospice. However, she is a fighter. In her words, "I ain't ready to kick the bucket yet!" Hospice might make my days less hectic but heck that would destroy my new weight-loss regimen. The good news is that my wife is making slow but steady progress in PT, to the amazement of some of the medfolks trying to warehouse her. And of course I am a PT helper too, being a veteran of practically every kind of PT known to mankind.

Cheerio, Throwdowners!

Truly a testament to your chosen moniker. Good to hear from you and I hope things do start to show improvement with your wife’s health. She’s blessed to have you, and I’m sure that goes both ways.

 

[Michael O]

I've been wearing my heart rate monitor a lot and my resting heart rate is now close to normal, 55-64, at least most of the time. What I found interesting is that it started to drop significantly once I started pushing the cardio training. It was different than the normal lowering of HR that we experience as we get conditioned, which takes months. Within weeks it dropped from resting of 78-94 to 55-64.

I'm eager to start using HRV to determine how hard I can train, or if I need more recovery. Interesting- HRV is is counter intuitive. With heart rate, lower is generally a sign of better conditioning. But, with HRV, higher is a sign of better conditioning or youth. Remarkable how much average HRV drops with age.

Any more comments on the value of tracking HRV vs. just HR while you're training? Been doing the elliptical at the gym, and we have one on the way for home. Resting HR between 75-90. While at the gym, if I try to keep the rate at 110 (70% of recommended max for my age), I'm not even breaking a sweat. If I go at a pace where I can just keep a conversation, I'm at 130.

I could be overthinking this. I did some bag work and I can work hard, slightly out of breath at 180 for a solid 10 mins and feel ok. I don't want to overstate things, but my impression is that the recommended max heart rate formula isn't super useful for semi-trained individuals.

Thoughts? I don't know if the solution is "get the elliptical at home, 30 mins 6 days/week for 4 weeks, then come back and talk to us" or if i should be thinking about this some other way.

 

[Chuck C]

Any more comments on the value of tracking HRV vs. just HR while you're training?

Hi Michael.

I bought a device and have an app which enable me to track HRV. I haven't been using them. My understanding of HRV is that it is best used to try to reach peak performance and give feedback as to

1) Whether you are over training and need to ease off

2) Whether it is a good day to go for a peak performance.

I'm currently not pushing for PRs on the mountain or anything else right now, as I've been in a routine of taking Mom to the gym daily and have not had time to climb the mountain much. They also closed the Mt Monserate trail for a year with no explanation, which is very upsetting.

Also, I am nowhere near the level of over training. I do about an hour of cardio daily and am not pushing too hard- moderate to semi-hard most days. Life being what it is, gives me plenty of recovery days, with family visiting and so forth. So, I don't feel as though I need to schedule any extra recovery days, which the HRV tracking would help me with.

If I decide to start really trying to set a PR of some sort I might give HRV a go.

Been doing the elliptical at the gym, and we have one on the way for home

This is also my cardio machine of choice at the gym as it is very easy on the joints. I have one at home as well, which the wife likes to use. People talk about wasting money on home exercise eq which never gets used- well, we have gotten our money out of this one and then some.

Resting HR between 75-90.

I expect that is high for you compared to pre-surgery. Before surgery I was usually in my mid 50s at home, but low 60s in the doctor's office- not as relaxed I suppose. My resting HR is now a little higher, since surgery, but has come down significantly from where it was in the months immediately after surgery. I feel that it is almost back to normal now, usually in the mid 60s resting, but has taken many months to get back this low. Also, for some reason there are days where it will be in the 70s for several hours.

While at the gym, if I try to keep the rate at 110 (70% of recommended max for my age), I'm not even breaking a sweat. If I go at a pace where I can just keep a conversation, I'm at 130.

I could be overthinking this. I did some bag work and I can work hard, slightly out of breath at 180 for a solid 10 mins and feel ok.

I'm trying to understand what you see as the problem. Is it that your heart rate is higher than you would expect it to be, given your level of output?

The formula for max HR (220 minus your age) would put yours at just under 170. Clearly your max HR is higher than that, and there may be something to your thought that for athletes max HR is higher than for others. When you hit the bag and your HR stays at 180, do you feel as though you are going at a super high intensity? I would think this must be at or very near your HR max, which if it is, to be able to maintain that for 10 minutes is impressive.

My max HR is about 174. I've only brought my HR over 170 a couple of times since surgery, both times were the final steep climb going up Mt. Monserate.

 

[Michael O]

@Chuck C

Thank you - very useful as always.

" My resting HR is now a little higher, since surgery, but has come down significantly from where it was in the months immediately after surgery. " Got it - I'm really only 4 months out, so I'm guessing that my resting HR is still a little high, and will come down.

Based on your comments, I should probably stop worrying about this so much and just do my cardio w/o sweating the actual HR numbers.

" I'm trying to understand what you see as the problem. Is it that your heart rate is higher than you would expect it to be, given your level of output? " Yup - that's it exactly. When I do bag work it's definitely more intense than cardio, but nowhere near, say, a bunch of burpees and not even close to active sparring. My sense is that the central perception of fatigue indicators for intensity have become decoupled somewhat from the heart rate.

Sounds like I need to stop worrying.

Interesting to note that you aren't using the Polar + app. I'm a complete numbers/data geek, so I love the idea of tracking progress via ***a chart***. I may justify the more expensive Polar on hobby grounds.

Cheers - hope it's a good holiday season for you and your family.

 

[Chuck C]

I'm really only 4 months out, so I'm guessing that my resting HR is still a little high, and will come down.

Checking my records, I see that my resting HR was in the mid 70s when I was 3 or 4 months out. I just checked it 5 minutes ago and it was 59. I may be closer to my pre-surgery levels than I thought.
So, if your recovery goes like mine, yours will likely continue to drop as the months pass.

You have a wonderful holiday season as well

 

[Wiles Darkwinter]

Any more comments on the value of tracking HRV vs. just HR while you're training? Been doing the elliptical at the gym, and we have one on the way for home. Resting HR between 75-90. While at the gym, if I try to keep the rate at 110 (70% of recommended max for my age), I'm not even breaking a sweat. If I go at a pace where I can just keep a conversation, I'm at 130.

I could be overthinking this. I did some bag work and I can work hard, slightly out of breath at 180 for a solid 10 mins and feel ok. I don't want to overstate things, but my impression is that the recommended max heart rate formula isn't super useful for semi-trained individuals.

Thoughts? I don't know if the solution is "get the elliptical at home, 30 mins 6 days/week for 4 weeks, then come back and talk to us" or if i should be thinking about this some other way.

Hi Michael,

Sounds like there is an asymmetry between your cardiovascular fitness and your muscular endurance and RPE - Rate of perceived exertion. I think this is fairly common, I'm on a few running forums and I've seen similar comments. I'm 8 months post surgery and although I've been training consistently, I still find my HR is higher than pre-surgery when on a reasonably steady run.

Objectively the science behind HR zones is conclusive. We know that HR increases to meet demands of the body i.e. o2 or it increases in reaction to stimulus - heat, infection, stress, pain - but as you say there may be differences regarding people who have done a lot of training.

You could use the RPE scale Perceived Exertion (Borg Rating of Perceived Exertion Scale) | Physical Activity | CDC

Another option could be try some light pack walking. I did heaps of pack work in the army and its good fitness as long as you keep the load reasonable. This way you can challenge yourself without having to run hard - you might be able to find the sweet spot where you're in the right HR zone.

What are your fitness goals out of interest? For me I am trying to get my run times back to pre-surgery, and I'm getting impatient

Side bar - In terms of the elliptical - recent studies have shown that runners in-fact have stronger joints than non-runners and <chance of osteoarthritis. Discussed in this article - Running could protect knees against osteoarthritis
Unless of course you prefer the elliptical or you're injured - I think its better to get out on the pavement but that's neither here nor there, exercising at all is a first step for most people.

 

[Chuck C]

" I'm trying to understand what you see as the problem. Is it that your heart rate is higher than you would expect it to be, given your level of output? " Yup - that's it exactly. When I do bag work it's definitely more intense than cardio, but nowhere near, say, a bunch of burpees and not even close to active sparring

So, today I was reflecting a little more over my return to fitness and what my heart rate was doing over the past 9 months.

Prior to surgery, it would take a lot to get my HR up. I recall doing the treadmill and the tech telling me that she had never seen anyone with only a 110 HR at 16 minutes at level 5, and wondering if they were gong to be able to bring me to HR max. I did eventually get to to max HR in the top level- level 7.

In recovery I noticed a big difference. Resting HR was significantly higher than normal and my heart rate would increase much faster than it used to prior to surgery. At the 4 month point I was given the clearance to train as hard as I wanted and found that I was getting to 130 bpm and 140 bpm much quicker than before. But as the months have passed since then, I have noticed that gradually things have been normalizing and at this point it now takes a lot to get my HR up there.

During today's workout at the gym I watched my HR closely. I am now finding that, as before surgery, it is now challenging to get my heart rate up beyond 140. I really need to push myself. In other words, depending on the exercise, my muscles are keeping me from reaching peak performance and it is like my heart is telling them "C'mon guys, I've got plenty of reserve and your slacking!"

You mentioned burpees- yup, that is one of the ones where I always knew I could max out my HR- those are the worst/best- love/hate them . I have found that going fast up a steep hill will get me to max also. However, it is near impossible for me to get to max on some activities, such as eliptical.

So, being only 4 months out- yeah that's early in recovery. I would just keep up the training and I would expect that things will normalize for you as they did for me. For me there was a big difference from the 4 month point to the 9 month point. Your heart went through some unbelievable trauma. It now has a new partner that has been forced upon it, your prosthetic valve. It needs to do some adaption to the new situation, but your heart was high performing before surgery and I would expect it will be once again in time. Personally, I would not be too eager to push things crazy hard, even with your doc's approval. Personally, I would not get my HR to180 for that length of time at just 4 months out, but that is just me. You have plenty of time to get back to your peak level.

 

[Wiles Darkwinter]

So, today I was reflecting a little more over my return to fitness and what my heart rate was doing over the past 9 months.

Prior to surgery, it would take a lot to get my HR up. I recall doing the treadmill and the tech telling me that she had never seen anyone with only a 110 HR at 16 minutes at level 5, and wondering if they were gong to be able to bring me to HR max. I did eventually get to to max HR in the top level- level 7.

In recovery I noticed a big difference. Resting HR was significantly higher than normal and my heart rate would increase much faster than it used to prior to surgery. At the 4 month point I was given the clearance to train as hard as I wanted and found that I was getting to 130 bpm and 140 bpm much quicker than before. But as the months have passed since then, I have noticed that gradually things have been normalizing and at this point it now takes a lot to get my HR up there.

During today's workout at the gym I watched my HR closely. I am now finding that, as before surgery, it is now challenging to get my heart rate up beyond 140. I really need to push myself. In other words, depending on the exercise, my muscles are keeping me from reaching peak performance and it is like my heart is telling them "C'mon guys, I've got plenty of reserve and your slacking!"

You mentioned burpees- yup, that is one of the ones where I always knew I could max out my HR- those are the worst/best- love/hate them . I have found that going fast up a steep hill will get me to max also. However, it is near impossible for me to get to max on some activities, such as eliptical.

So, being only 4 months out- yeah that's early in recovery. I would just keep up the training and I would expect that things will normalize for you as they did for me. For me there was a big difference from the 4 month point to the 9 month point. Your heart went through some unbelievable trauma. It now has a new partner that has been forced upon it, your prosthetic valve. It needs to do some adaption to the new situation, but your heart was high performing before surgery and I would expect it will be once again in time. Personally, I would not be too eager to push things crazy hard, even with your doc's approval. Personally, I would not get my HR to180 for that length of time at just 4 months out, but that is just me. You have plenty of time to get back to your peak level.

Chuck,

Do you ever stop and think how amazing it is that we are able to get after it again after such invasive surgery? I had surgery at a similar time to you this year, and I cannot believe I was on the table with my chest open THIS year, and today I was going hard on the bike - my fifth session of the week. Bloody astonishing!

Agreed on what you said about giving it time, I was so impatient about getting back into training, and also devastated about how much fitness I'd lost, but its a great lesson to be knocked down physically and emotionally and rebuild yourself.

Even if you're not wanting to compete or beat your PR's, physical exercise is a must, especially for us. It really is a matter of life and death. Not to mention the benefits of exercise and its effect on decreasing the chances of dementia as we age. From my perspective you only go around once, it a big universe, nothing matters and because nothing matters I get to decide what matters to me - which is living long, while experiencing the world with loved ones - being fit makes that easier. But I can see how a lot of people lose motivation and just give up physically after surgery. I love looking at the numbers, the HR, HRV, how many kms, how many rounds - but sometimes it can just stress me the **** out haha

Go hard,
Wiles

 

[Chuck C]

Chuck,
Do you ever stop and think how amazing it is that we are able to get after it again after such invasive surgery?

Absolutely, I think about it all the time. It is truly remarkable and I am very grateful.

I had surgery at a similar time to you this year, and I cannot believe I was on the table with my chest open THIS year,

I have felt this way at every step of recovery. At the 3 week point I had a follow up appointment with my cardiologist and an hour later with the NP who works directly with my surgeon. In both appointments I told them that I can't believe that I just had OHS. I actually felt at the time like I could start back to hard exercise, although I was very conservative in this regard and waited for the green light to go hard, which I was given at my 4 month follow up.

devastated about how much fitness I'd lost, but its a great lesson to be knocked down physically and emotionally and rebuild yourself.

I feel the same way. Setting aside the valve surgery, getting on an exercise program and seeing weekly progress is very rewarding in itself. To me, it has been an extra rewarding journey, because the starting point was so low- in ICU full of tubes and so forth. Each step back to normal has been something to celebrate as well as each milestone of return to fitness.

Even if you're not wanting to compete or beat your PR's, physical exercise is a must, especially for us. It really is a matter of life and death. Not to mention the benefits of exercise and its effect on decreasing the chances of dementia as we age.

Agreed. The benefits of exercise are numerous- reducing the odds of developing dementia is one of them. Other benefits are reducing the risk of heart disease, reducing the risk of developing cancer, increasing insulin sensitivity, decreasing the likelihood of diabetes, reducing the risk of arthritis, it helps one's mental health and more. The list goes on and on.

I think it is important to realize also that one does not need to exercise with intensity to gain the vast majority of benefits of exercise. I know that this is what you and I like doing, but for those not inlclined towards those kind of work outs, a person can gain most of the benefits of exercise by going on daily walks.

I love looking at the numbers, the HR, HRV, how many kms, how many rounds - but sometimes it can just stress me the **** out haha

I hear you. I like tracking things also, but find that in some areas I need to rein in this impulse. Sometimes it is better to keep it simple and not overcomplicate things. Exercise with regularity, pushing yourself if it feels right, backing off if it does not feel right and just give things time to heal.

 

[Michael O]

Sounds like there is an asymmetry between your cardiovascular fitness and your muscular endurance and RPE - Rate of perceived exertion.

That's it in a nutshell. It's weird to see my HR approaching the theoretical max when I don't feel uncomfortable at all.

re: elliptical - bad hip, bad knee, so the elliptical is just about the best I can do until our local pool opens up again.

I don't have specific fitness goals, although pack walking was on the schedule once the weather cooperates a bit more. I enjoy hiking and want to get back to that next summer.

 

[Michael O]

So, being only 4 months out- yeah that's early in recovery. I would just keep up the training and I would expect that things will normalize for you as they did for me. For me there was a big difference from the 4 month point to the 9 month point. Your heart went through some unbelievable trauma. It now has a new partner that has been forced upon it, your prosthetic valve. It needs to do some adaption to the new situation, but your heart was high performing before surgery and I would expect it will be once again in time. Personally, I would not be too eager to push things crazy hard, even with your doc's approval. Personally, I would not get my HR to180 for that length of time at just 4 months out, but that is just me. You have plenty of time to get back to your peak level.

Hugely comforting - thank you.

Also very helpful:
"Agreed. The benefits of exercise are numerous- reducing the odds of developing dementia is one of them. Other benefits are reducing the risk of heart disease, reducing the risk of developing cancer, increasing insulin sensitivity, decreasing the likelihood of diabetes, reducing the risk of arthritis, it helps one's mental health and more. The list goes on and on.

I think it is important to realize also that one does not need to exercise with intensity to gain the vast majority of benefits of exercise. I know that this is what you and I like doing, but for those not inlclined towards those kind of work outs, a person can gain most of the benefits of exercise by going on daily walks. "


I expect that you had some of the same experiences I did when talking with docs.
Doctor/Nurse: "How often did exercise make you lightheaded or so out of breath that you needed to stop?"
Me: "Few times/month"
Doctor/Nurse: <stares>
Me: "Well, you get in a fistfight with a 25 year old and tell me how you feel..."

 

[Chuck C]

"Well, you get in a fistfight with a 25 year old and tell me how you feel..."

Yup!

My associates at work thought that I had lost my marbles when they found out that I tried out for and made the MMA team at Dan Henderson's at age 49. On Saturdays we would do structured sparring, involving 12-13 rounds against guys in their 20s and 30s, most of whom are on the amateur or pro MMA team. It was always a fun cardio challenge. It is a challenge to go hard on the bag for 3 minutes at a time. The cardio challenge goes up exponentially when there is someone at the other end of your punches who is trying to hit you back.
Several months before surgery, my cardiologist: "You know, I'm really not sure I feel comfortable with you doing that."

 

[Mister_James]

Well I just got back from my PCP.
June 2020 I clocked Total Chol of 270mg/dL with LDL at 172mg/dL.
After 5 years of some huge numbers, the doctor put me on 20mg Atorvastatin. I added Nicotinic Acid, Fiber, Red Yeast Rice and plenty of walking.
Total Chol. 115mg/dL
LDL 41mg/dL

My goal is to lose 10lbs by spring and maintain these numbers.

 

[Chuck C]

June 2020 I clocked Total Chol of 270mg/dL with LDL at 172mg/dL.

Total Chol. 115mg/dL
LDL 41mg/dL

Great job bringing your cholesterol numbers down so dramatically!

Good luck keeping them low and on losing the 10 pounds!

 

[Superbob]

Hey, guys, ain't stress great! For the past 3 months, I have been a 24/7 caretaker for my wife as she struggles to recover from a hip fractured when she fell. I mean I do everything -- cook, clean, obtain and apply medicines, get up about every 2 hours during the night to help her, etc etc. The weight-loss bonus: I am down at least 25 pounds -- maybe more b/c I only weigh occasionally. The reward: I am now wearing jeans two sizes smaller in the waist and I am ordering them like crazy from Amazon prime, with delivery the next day.

My dear wife is fighting through numerous complications and some of her home health care nurses have suggested she go into hospice. However, she is a fighter. In her words, "I ain't ready to kick the bucket yet!" Hospice might make my days less hectic but heck that would destroy my new weight-loss regimen. The good news is that my wife is making slow but steady progress in PT, to the amazement of some of the medfolks trying to warehouse her. And of course I am a PT helper too, being a veteran of practically every kind of PT known to mankind.

Cheerio, Throwdowners!

Hey guys, two years or so, I'm still at it and so is my hardy wife. She just had third retina injection aimed at preserving some of her sight from the ravages of macular degeneration,and today I had my second spinal injection to try to stave off ravages of spinal stenosis. Minimally invasive surgery likely this fall. Nothing new on heart front, thank goodness. No news is good news. My new NP listened to it the other day and exclaimed "you've got a strong heart!" My reply: "It outta be. It's been redone enough," Hope all folks here are well. I will try to check in more often.

 

[dornole]

Good to hear from you Superbob. Sounds like you and your lovely wife are both fighters! Sending best regards.