INR - How low should you go?

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Glad to hear that you’re ok after your scare. I am about to go in for my 3rd AVR. First two were tissue, last one was the Abbot trifecta GT. Yeah that one , unfortunately it’s failing early. My surgeon has recommended the ONYX valve I’m 62 so theoretically this would be my last SAVR procedure. I know what your thinking and your right I should have gone with mechanical valve at 47 but I didn’t and here we are my new surgeon who I absolutely love told me that with ONYX my INR can go as low as 1.5 would anybody out there care to comment, please and thank you. I am new to this site and I’m amazed at all the wonderful and kind people that I’ve come across already
Hi. I am 8 months post AVR with a 29mm OnX valve. First 2 months was inr 2.5-3.0 and now they have cleared me to 1.5-2.0. I am also nervous at anything under 2.0. I do not want a stroke and that seems to be cutting it a little close. They have a note in my chart that I wish to be kept around 2.0.
 
The table I was quoting from is from the UK's "NICE" - National Institute for Health and Care Excellence" document on warfarin anticoagulation. It's pretty much the same as yours but doesn't specifically mention valve types - so thanks! Nice to know my Carbomedics valve is low risk (no pun intended).
CKS is only available in the UK

Slightly off topic, but on reviewing the CT scan done for my fall they also discovered I've an enlarged pituitary gland. I now need an MRI scan. Now that's a whole new can of worms as each valve has its own limit on how powerful an MRI scan should be. The MRI booking folks wanted exact details of my valve - luckily, I do have them recorded. Not everyone may have this info to hand, and you never know when you're going to need an MRI. Maybe they should tattoo implant details somewhere inconspicuous but standard, like under the armpit (that was meant as a joke, but doesn't sound such a bad idea on reflection).
With St Jude in mitral position and SORIN in aortic position my INR range is 2.5 - 3.5. When I went for MOHS surgery, surgeon told me to arrive with INR as close to 2.0 as I could get and he was comfortable doing the surgery without bridging with Lovenox. So I think 2.0 at least on a temporary basis is pretty safe and it provides the surgeon with a lower risk of uncontrolled bleeding.

As pellicle said, high INR does not cause bleeding but it increases coagulation times. At any particular time my body has black-and-blue hemorrhage marks (3 at the moment). Two I know happened while installing a heavy air conditioner where I was using my arms and chest to get the thing into position. In the past those minor internal injuries would not have extensively hemorrhaged, but now they do. My INR may have been on the high side at the time but I only measure once a week, so don't know. INR will fluctuate +/- one whole point on a daily basis depending on several variables. I've done daily measurement in the past and discovered that.

Regarding your MRI. I didn't know mechanical valves only tolerate limited MRI fields; thanks for the info. But I've run into quite a big issue with pacemaker and MRI. Even though my pacemaker is supposedly tolerant of MRI, their lab protocol requires the physical presence of my cardiologist on site. I don't know what value a cardiologist would provide other than to be the scapegoat should something go wrong.

Regarding the tattoo of device info, as I've said in an earlier post, your phone is a good alternative, if like me you take your phone everywhere you go. There's a place in your phone for medical ID info (on iPhone it's the Health app) that can be accessed by anyone, even on a locked phone without knowing your password. Of course it works only if your first responder knows how to retrieve it. I've encouraged my local fire department to train its EMS technicians on how to get it. You can input all your meds, devices, and relevant medical history you think would be useful in an emergency.
 
@TicTokCroc
I just wanted to add a few things to the below
Not least because many people find ±0.5 a common thing
I've been monitoring my INR and doing my own dose administration for about 12 years now. If I may quote my old boss on the topic of experience: Some people have a years experience in a job, others have a weeks experience 52 times.

What I mean by this is that collecting the data, keeping the data, doing analysis on the data , and not least discussing the analysis on this data here has helped me develop my understanding. Combined with a lot of journal level reading (not fluff level reading) I'm confident to say "I know more about ACT than my cardiologist or surgeon" (because fundamentally ACT is not their professional realm).

So we are all different, but I happen to know the actual data for quite a few people because I've helped them learn how to monitor and administer themselves. Some people here will claim something like "I'm 100% INR=2.5 every time I test and have been for years".

Good for them ... but is that you? It sure isn't me nor is it anyone I help. So lets look at a years data (and if you search here you can find my posts of yearly INR data going back to at least 2014). This graph shows both my INR and my dose, and by reading this graph you can see where I've made dose adjustments and by how much. In the main I get my adjustment right, right enough that my time in range is something like >95%. Time in therapeutic range is the benchmark for "success" (defined as no strokes, no bleeds).
1692649617001.png


in that year my stats were this:
average
2.6
std dev
0.4
max​
3.3​
min​
1.8​
over event​
2​
under event​
1​
inRange %​
94.2​

However I had some struggles with COVID in that year.

None the less a standard deviation of 0.4 should yell out to you that I could expect (with an average of 2.6) to see an INR of 2.2 or an INR of 3.0 ; neither of these would trigger me to consider making an adjustment to my daily dose for that week.

Now IF I was instead attempting to average 2.0 then I would on occasion expect to find myself at 1.6 ... while this may NOT trigger any strokes it may indeed just add to the residual accumulation of coagulation which sits on your valve surfaces (both the leaflets and the tube of the valve itself). Eg from a valve makers publication:
1692650042690.png

This is cumulative and I understand builds up with repeated iterative low INR. To eventually look like this:
1692650425773.png


the above image is from a presentation: Evaluation of Prosthetic Heart Valves presentation 2010

So in my view it is remiss of any health professional to (without some guiding evidence) steer you to INR = 2.0 as a target (which reasonably would produce a manageable range of between 1.5 and 2.5)

Further I test weekly, just like a diabetic (who tests upwards of 3 times per day, week on week) I would not miss a weekly test. Harm eventually finds those who lull themselves to sleep believing that "this is my stable dose".

Best Wishes
 
There's a place in your phone for medical ID info (on iPhone it's the Health app) that can be accessed by anyone, even on a locked phone without knowing your password.
This is great info to know and thank you for sharing it with us. I use the Health app daily, to track my steps. I was unaware that it can be opened without a password. I'm going to input my info regarding my prosthetic valve and that I am on ACT. I do hope that more first responders receive training to encourage them to check this app on patients.
 
I should have gone with mechanical valve at 47 but I didn’t and here we are
You are not alone. There are many other members here that have shared the same feeling, when they are staring down the barrel of their 2nd or 3rd OHS surgery, having received a tissue valve at a young age. Sorry that you have to face this a third time. Sadly, this is driven overwhelmingly by fear, misinformation, and very good, targeted marketing by certain valve companies, for whom the tissue valve business is very big $. Mechanical valves cost a lot less and are typically one and done, so marketing budgets are comparatively small and sometimes nonexistent. The vast majority of patients do not have the benefit of a forum like this, where they can hear stories like yours to help them decide if they want to get multiple surgeries, so instead they get peppered and influenced with messages claiming " Don't worry, the next one will just go through your leg and not be OHS."

Wishing you the very best of luck in your third procedure. :) Let's hope this one is your last and that you live to a ripe old age and that your mechanical valve outlives you.
 
You are not alone. There are many other members here that have shared the same feeling, when they are staring down the barrel of their 2nd or 3rd OHS surgery, having received a tissue valve at a young age. Sorry that you have to face this a third time. Sadly, this is driven overwhelmingly by fear, misinformation, and very good, targeted marketing by certain valve companies, for whom the tissue valve business is very big $. Mechanical valves cost a lot less and are typically one and done, so marketing budgets are comparatively small and sometimes nonexistent. The vast majority of patients do not have the benefit of a forum like this, where they can hear stories like yours to help them decide if they want to get multiple surgeries, so instead they get peppered and influenced with messages claiming " Don't worry, the next one will just go through your leg and not be OHS."

Wishing you the very best of luck in your third procedure. :) Let's hope this one is your last and that you live to a ripe old age and that your mechanical valve outlives you.
People know that the Hippocratic Oath sates, “Above all, do no harm.” It takes a lot of life lessons to realize that it doesn’t say, “Always do what’s in the best interest of your patient.”
 
.... here we are my new surgeon who I absolutely love told me that with ONYX my INR can go as low as 1.5 would anybody out there care to comment, please and thank you. I am new to this site and I’m amazed at all the wonderful and kind people that I’ve come across already
Personally, I am very concerned about numbers under 2.0........and I really can't see any advantage of "walking too close to the edge of the cliff"

I turned 64 when I got my On-X and my surgeon said 1.5 to 2.5 was good, my doctor said 2.0 to 3 was better. I wanted 2.5 to 3, so I'm not close to the edge of the cliff!
 
Regarding the tattoo of device info, as I've said in an earlier post, your phone is a good alternative, if like me you take your phone everywhere you go. There's a place in your phone for medical ID info (on iPhone it's the Health app) that can be accessed by anyone, even on a locked phone without knowing your password. Of course it works only if your first responder knows how to retrieve it. I've encouraged my local fire department to train its EMS technicians on how to get it. You can input all your meds, devices, and relevant medical history you think would be useful in an emergency.
I don't think there's an equivalent for Android.
For a few years I've been using the app "Medical ID" (by Laurent Pellegrino):
Medical ID (premium) - Apps on Google Play

This allows a banner on the lock screen with "In case of Emergency", saying to double tap for emergency medical and ID info. It works pretty well and I find it reassuring to know it's there for an emergency.

1692721725722.png
 
@TicTokCroc
I just wanted to add a few things to the below

I've been monitoring my INR and doing my own dose administration for about 12 years now. If I may quote my old boss on the topic of experience: Some people have a years experience in a job, others have a weeks experience 52 times.

What I mean by this is that collecting the data, keeping the data, doing analysis on the data , and not least discussing the analysis on this data here has helped me develop my understanding. Combined with a lot of journal level reading (not fluff level reading) I'm confident to say "I know more about ACT than my cardiologist or surgeon" (because fundamentally ACT is not their professional realm).

So we are all different, but I happen to know the actual data for quite a few people because I've helped them learn how to monitor and administer themselves. Some people here will claim something like "I'm 100% INR=2.5 every time I test and have been for years".

Good for them ... but is that you? It sure isn't me nor is it anyone I help. So lets look at a years data (and if you search here you can find my posts of yearly INR data going back to at least 2014). This graph shows both my INR and my dose, and by reading this graph you can see where I've made dose adjustments and by how much. In the main I get my adjustment right, right enough that my time in range is something like >95%. Time in therapeutic range is the benchmark for "success" (defined as no strokes, no bleeds).
View attachment 889535

in that year my stats were this:
average
2.6
std dev
0.4
max​
3.3​
min​
1.8​
over event​
2​
under event​
1​
inRange %​
94.2​

However I had some struggles with COVID in that year.

None the less a standard deviation of 0.4 should yell out to you that I could expect (with an average of 2.6) to see an INR of 2.2 or an INR of 3.0 ; neither of these would trigger me to consider making an adjustment to my daily dose for that week.

Now IF I was instead attempting to average 2.0 then I would on occasion expect to find myself at 1.6 ... while this may NOT trigger any strokes it may indeed just add to the residual accumulation of coagulation which sits on your valve surfaces (both the leaflets and the tube of the valve itself). Eg from a valve makers publication:
View attachment 889536
This is cumulative and I understand builds up with repeated iterative low INR. To eventually look like this:
View attachment 889537

the above image is from a presentation: Evaluation of Prosthetic Heart Valves presentation 2010

So in my view it is remiss of any health professional to (without some guiding evidence) steer you to INR = 2.0 as a target (which reasonably would produce a manageable range of between 1.5 and 2.5)

Further I test weekly, just like a diabetic (who tests upwards of 3 times per day, week on week) I would not miss a weekly test. Harm eventually finds those who lull themselves to sleep believing that "this is my stable dose".

Best Wishes
I know my tests have been all over. They have been testing me 2 times a month. I was high, now I'm in a period of lower does. 5mg a day seemed to be the sweet spot. Now I'm 3.75, and 5mg . I really want to buy my own home tester.


Seeing that buildup of platelets makes me think, I'm 38 now, I need this valve for a while(crosses fingers) I will ask them to keep me between 2-3. I didn't know platelets built up like that over time. How can they say with the onx valve that lower INRs are OK? Do platelets not stick to that valve as well?
 
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marketing by certain valve companies, for whom the tissue valve business is very big $. Mechanical valves cost a lot less and are typically one and done, so marketing budgets are comparatively small and sometimes nonexistent.
A point I make on my blog

Lets look at those numbers in another (perhaps clearer) way

so this means that over 80% of valves sold to 'consumers' in the USA are of the type that will need replacement. In fact its quite probable that some of the valves sold in 2011 were for replacement. Since its quite rare to replace a mechanical valve selling more tissue valves gives greater possibility for then selling another tissue valve. Repeat business is good for business.

Looking at the data sales of tissue valves gives rise to something like $348,573,557 in valves alone
(think of the extra revenue generated in hospital treatments).

On the other and if the consumer (that would be you) got a single operation which gave them a valve that lasted for life where is the business sense in that?
 
This is great info to know and thank you for sharing it with us. I use the Health app daily, to track my steps. I was unaware that it can be opened without a password. I'm going to input my info regarding my prosthetic valve and that I am on ACT. I do hope that more first responders receive training to encourage them to check this app on patients.
The Health App is where you input your data (in the Summary tab). A user retrieves the data on the Lock screen (Enter Passcode screen). Instead of entering a passcode, you tap Emergency in lower left, then Medical ID. If using FaceID, you hardly ever see the Lock screen because the phone unlocks by scanning your face. But even with FaceID turned ON, an unauthorized user will be presented with the Lock screen.
 
I don't think there's an equivalent for Android.
For a few years I've been using the app "Medical ID" (by Laurent Pellegrino):
Medical ID (premium) - Apps on Google Play

This allows a banner on the lock screen with "In case of Emergency", saying to double tap for emergency medical and ID info. It works pretty well and I find it reassuring to know it's there for an emergency.

View attachment 889539
Yes, I guess it's not built-in but requires an App. Here's another one. https://www.jointcommission.org/-/m...rge/android-app---medical-id-instructions.pdf
 
wow ... that's a wild ride
Yes. Here's the page from my INR log book from 2018 where I was experimenting with daily INR measurements. There are some large movements on a daily basis. Take a look at the last two entries on the page. From noon on May 23rd to noon on May 24th I managed to get my INR down by 1.5 points. Now realize that with the high numbers like 4.0 and above, the CoaguChek machine is not very accurate but still this is a huge change in one day. The notes say I took 427 mcg of vitamin K that day to knock it down.

Column five records the prothrombin time (PT) in seconds. and the %Q number which I don't understand but the meter used to report it. They upgraded the software (dumbed it down) so it only reports the two-digit INR now, I guess to not confuse anyone. I used to like the PT because it had three significant digits and one could convert it to a three-digit INR.
 

Attachments

  • INR log Book - Aug 22 2023 - 8-12 PM.pdf
    611.1 KB
I used to like the PT because it had three significant digits and one could convert it to a three-digit INR.
personally I'd recommend sticking with INR, because PT isn't "normalised" and INR actually tells you more (and is more useful for other calculations).

Eg (from this source):

the normal range for your PT results is 11 to 13.5 seconds

it gets worse when you wish to compare that data (the PT) to most labs. The extra decimal points are meaningless. If you have 10 bucks having an extra 5c won't make significant difference to your purchasing power. But more than pointless its meaningless because the 'standard error' acceptable nullifies really even accuracy of the first significant decimal place.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5569083/
... The mean difference between PTLab and PTLSR values was 2.6%, significantly below the clinically acceptable error (10%) for PT testing.

the devil actually is in the details

That logbook underscores why I don't recommend walking the cliff edge with INR®
 
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Sadly, this is driven overwhelmingly by fear, misinformation, and very good, targeted marketing by certain valve companies, for whom the tissue valve business is very big $. Mechanical valves cost a lot less and are typically one and done, so marketing budgets are comparatively small and sometimes nonexistent. The vast majority of patients do not have the benefit of a forum like this, where they can hear stories like yours to help them decide if they want to get multiple surgeries, so instead they get peppered and influenced with messages claiming " Don't worry, the next one will just go through your leg and not be OHS."
Amen to this. My Starr-Edwards "ball-in-cage" aortic valve was the first successful valve on the market, having been designed and built by Dr. Albert Starr and an engineer Lowell Edwards. Out of that small company grew a dominant company that bears Lowell Edwards's name. That company produced my valve until 2007 when they jumped into the tissue valve market and left the mechanical valve market. After all, why market something that really can last a lifetime and reduces your base of future business? Where is the Hippocratic Oath?

I am not knocking Edwards Lifesciences as one of their early mechanical valves more than doubled my life expectancy.....but their advertising claims are somewhat ??.....in my opinion, of course.
 
so here in the UK my target is 2.5. (ON-X) but recently i have been told at my next visit to Leeds General i will be changing to a lower target of 1.5 in accordance with ON-X apparently so waiting to see what happens with that.
 
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