I need to make a choice soon

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Geckley,

Thank you so much for opening up this thread. I am having mitral valve surgery in November. I too am looking at getting a mechanical valve due to the many complications I had with a previous mitral repair. Less surgery is definately the way I want to go. I was struggling with the decision until you opened this thread and pointed to an opption I did not know about. I contacted my cardiacthoracic surgeon at Cleveland Clinic he said that the ON-X is definately a good valve if that is the way I want to go. He has put them in in the past and feels comfortable with both. I am in the process of finding out how many ON-X that he has put in. He performed 406 surgeries last year in which 3/4 of them were on the mitral valve. I trust his opinion. I am continuing to do research on this. I have to make a decision by the time the whell me into the ER so I have time.
Congrats on your decision. Best of luck and thank you.

Out of curiosity, which of the CC Surgeons are you using?
Did you see the posts from "ctyguy" and "dtread" about the reasons for their choice of On-X and Dr. Pettersson's comment? Interesting reading.

Have you read the On-X websites?

If you would like more information, contact On-X directly.
Catheran Burnett will be glad to send you a very thorough 'information packet'.

To my mind, the BIG feature of the On-X Valves are that they have a greatly reduced propensity for clot formation, even with NO anti-coagulation as demonstrated by the African study where many patients were non-compliant in taking their Coumadin / Warfarin. This bodes well for those times when one may need to go OFF anti-coagulation for other invasive procedures / surgeries.
 
I did read those posts and have been all over the ON-X website. More importantly I have been on a number of websites where there was independent research done on the valve. All research has been favorable, even those comparing the results with the St. Jude valve. They have implanted over 50,000 since 1996. Ten year results show that the valve is just as successful as the St. Jude. The pluses, as you mentioned, are the decrease risk of clotting. That made me feel better about having to go off the warafin if I would need non related surgery in the future. Also I noticed that the INR levels look to be lower with the ON-X valve. The only negative, would be that there is only 12 years of data.

My surgeon is Dr. Mark Gillinov at Cleveland Clinic.

Thanks for the name. I think I will contact ON-X directly.

Hopefully, Dr. Gillinov will be able to re-repair the valve but if not I want to be prepared.
 
I've been busy. Looked at your previous post with the contact info. and already spoke to Catheran. She was great and explained alot of things in detail, including funding of studies. She did not hide anything and was straight forward and very helpful. She is sending data specifically related to the mitral valve.

I've even spent alot of time reading pasts posts on the ON-X. The discussion was pretty heated. I work in the medical field and know how this stuff works. You can't argue about the data, especially that by the FDA. They have pretty stringent guidelines.

Thanks again for the info.
 
You obviously do not know me. I spoke to the person as another avenue of education. I asked for the specific research not glitzed with marketing so that I could dissect it. I understand it is from the company that produces it "so buyer beware". I have now spent many hours on researching this and will continue to do so. I am accessing as many independent resources as possible, including professionals in the field, not associated with either company. As part of that research I also accessed the St. Jude sight. As I said I am in the medical business so I know how it works. My surgeon is comfortable with either valve, so I thought I would educate myself. I think that it is great that they had this thread, because I would not have known about different valve choices.
My real prayer is that they will be able to re-repair my valve. Maybe researching this stuff is just really a way for me to feel like I have some control over what is happening to me.

Thank you for your concern, I will definately keep my guard up for the wolves amoung the flock.
 
not much help but

not much help but

The possibility of reduced or no blood thinners would be something to consider. My surgeon recommended the ON-X, but I would give a lot of weight to what your surgeon was familiar with.
 
You obviously do not know me. I spoke to the person as another avenue of education. I asked for the specific research not glitzed with marketing so that I could dissect it. I understand it is from the company that produces it "so buyer beware". I have now spent many hours on researching this and will continue to do so. I am accessing as many independent resources as possible, including professionals in the field, not associated with either company. As part of that research I also accessed the St. Jude sight. As I said I am in the medical business so I know how it works. My surgeon is comfortable with either valve, so I thought I would educate myself. I think that it is great that they had this thread, because I would not have known about different valve choices.
My real prayer is that they will be able to re-repair my valve. Maybe researching this stuff is just really a way for me to feel like I have some control over what is happening to me.

Thank you for your concern, I will definately keep my guard up for the wolves amoung the flock.


I wish you luck for your operation.
You sound very well educated and committed to researching what is best for you.

I see nothing wrong with this thread and can't understand why anyone could possibly have "concerns" with it....indeed it would be a helpful thread to anyone wanting to research valve options. JMHO....

Bridgette
 
I think the wariness surrounding the On-X valve has more to do with the marketing than the valve itself. They are presenting it as better than the others, possibly not needing Warfarin in the future, although the tests don't necessarily back that up. It looks to be as good as the St. Jude, but I wouldn't insist on it just because of the future possibility of not using Warfarin. First, Warfarin isn't that big a deal. Second, I wouldn't hang my hopes on a possibility. I'm just not a gambler.

When I think about heart valve technology, I can't help but think about the following, which some of you who are new to heart valve stuff probably don't remember.

Ten years ago when I had my surgery, the St. Jude Silzone heart valve was reported to be more resistant to Endocarditis and was the latest and greatest. There were 36,000 of these valves implanted worldwide, FDA had approved it for use in the US, and 10,500 had been implanted in the US. There had been lots of testing. Then one day, it was RECALLED! The recall was due to an increased chance of paravalvular leakage (causing a higher than acceptable number of explants) and higher risk of thrombus. I remember that day very well because I and many others on this site had had our surgeries during the time period that they were using this valve, and had St. Jude's in our chests, but didn't know which model we had. It was a Saturday, so most doctor's offices were closed! I had several minutes of panic while I found my St. Jude's ID card, grabbed the phone and dialed the number that they had listed in the announced recall. You really can't imagine how badly my hands were shaking and how fast my heart was beating. Luckily for me, my surgeon is conservative and I did not have the Silzone valve. There were thousands of others in the US and the world who weren't so lucky. Some of these people had complications and had to be explanted. About 28,000 didn't have complications and still have this valve, with a load of added stress and having to be followed more closely, although the latest studies do show that if you didn't have a problem in the first 4 years, you probably won't. Some recipients died.

So, if I ever have to go through this again, not only would I not want to be the guinea pig, I would insist on the tried and true, been around for "a hundred years" valve.
 
I am not an ON-X rep

I am not an ON-X rep

I was not looking at the ON-X valve to be off the warfarin. In fact the RN "sales person" said that if you have a mitral valve replacement that it really wasn't an option due to increased risk with that valve. She also told me about which studies they funded and those they didn't. Most "sales people" wouldn't devulge that information. I'm looking at the valve based on possibly of having a decreased risk of clotting in case I would have to have surgery in the future.

I thought this site was about getting information and support from other people who have gone through this. A person shouldn't be afraid to ask a question or talk about a valve because they're afraid of being brow beatin' and accused of marketing for the company.

I appreciate the information you gave me about the St. Jude Silzone valve. That is good food for thought. I've kind of been there to a lesser degree. I had a stent implanted where the 1st surgeon placed a stitch through my coronary artery. That stent was a new nonclotting stent that they found out clots years down the road. I've been on plavix ever since. I did not request that stent it was given to me. Hence, the reason I am inquiring and educating myself.

It's nice to hear that the warfarin therapy is not big deal. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
 
I thought this site was about getting information and support from other people who have gone through this. A person shouldn't be afraid to ask a question or talk about a valve because they're afraid of being brow beatin' and accused of marketing for the company.

Wtatc, You will find that the people on the site are a very good source of information and support. This is just one of the topics that has a tendency to really get people's dander up. I don't even have a dog in this fight, I have a tissue valve and will never have the choice to have something different. However, even I have to agree it is ridiculous how frequently the On-x valve gets promoted and the phone number gets given out. I have never once seen that for another valve on this site.

It is fine to ask for people's opinions here, but remember in the end we are all strangers. Educate yourself and choose for yourself.

Kim
 
POST Tact

POST Tact

Please keep in mind in your posting that the general forum population wants to read informational and educational information.

Accusations and innuendos are better voiced somewhere else.
 
wtatc88 -

For information on anti-coagulation, there are 3 excellent "sticky's" at the Top of the Thread Listing for the Anti-Coagulation Forum.

After you have read those, you may want to browse throughout that Forum or visit AL Lodwick's excellent website www.warfarinfo.com AL Lodwick is a Registered Pharmacist and Certified Anti-Coagulation Care Provider (now retired) who has written a Book on the Subject and served as an Expert Witness. He currently conducts seminars in Anti-Coagulation Management around the country.

'AL Capshaw'
 
My surgeon likes the St Jude so thats what Im getting. I just want to say thanks to all who responded. It makes sense to me.

I first met with Dr. Cameron in late 2005 to discuss my options for AV replacement. I think he had a St. Jude valve that I could handle and a tissue valve in lucite paperweight (correct me if I am wrong). Pretty freaky. When you are talking about what should be a valve for life, the St. Jude has the track record and Dr. Cameron was most comfortable with that choice. The On-x looked to be promising. Dr. Cameron looked into the On-x when I told him I was interested. He was aided with it's installation by On-x staff when I received mine in March 2006 - a first for me and the Doc!.

I am glad my surgeon was open to the new technology and we could discuss my options as such. I ultimately met with two surgeons and e-mailed another to make sure that the options on the table were discussed. The doctors opinions varied so talking to several was pretty interesting.
 
Here is a link to some of my thoughts on mechanical valve selection from a previous post. The first part discusses some issues I had with valve marketing that we have already beaten to a pulp so feel free to disregard that. The rest of the message offers my thoughts on undergoing a mechanical valve replacement.

http://www.valvereplacement.com/forums/showthread.php?p=332857#post332857

On a previous thread, I had intended to respond to dtread?s entry on how he went about selecting his mechanical valve. Given the activity and discussion on this thread, let me pick it up here.

Earlier in this thread, AlCapshaw2 opined, ?To my mind, the BIG feature of the On-X Valves are that they have a greatly reduced propensity for clot formation, even with NO anti-coagulation as demonstrated by the African study where many patients were non-compliant in taking their Coumadin / Warfarin. This bodes well for those times when one may need to go OFF anti-coagulation for other invasive procedures / surgeries.?

Given what I believe is a lack of good science that exists in support of his opinion, I feel the need to offer up my thoughts on valve data. Forgive my long winded message. It is not an easy subject to condense to sound bites.

In medical science, a blinded randomized prospective trial is the Holy Grail for determining whether one product or procedure is better than another. As an example, if you wanted to determine if one valve was better than another, you would find a good surgeon and have him/her implant 500 valves. Before each case, they would flip a coin to determine whether the patient gets Brand A or Brand B and then they would follow those patients for an extended period of time to determine complication rates and outcomes. This eliminates most, but not all of the variables that can affect the outcome of the study and it would provide a conclusion with a strong statistical and scientific basis.

With regards to mechanical heart valves, these types of studies almost never exist. They are very expensive to conduct and take very long periods of time to accumulate enough data to be significant. However, if you were a valve manufacturer and had a valve that you really believed was superior to SJM for example, wouldn?t it make sense to fund a randomized study? Put your valve against SJM head to head and in a few years you would have great scientific data that unequivocally showed your valve was superior. Simple. So why don?t the manufacturers do it? Because they know that after spending lots of time and money on a study like that, at best it will show their valve as equivalent to the others. They know that good science will show all the mechanical valves to be comparable in performance. The link below is to a paper that has been posted before in the forum. It talks about valve studies and is a good reference for valve selection with regards to mechanical vs tissue and touches on studies and evidence. Note that they don?t discuss the brands of mechanical valve at all.

http://http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/117/2/253

In the absence of randomized studies, what happens? Individual medical centers collect data on their patients, sometimes pool it into a multicenter study and publish retrospective reviews of their experience. This is valuable, but it has significant limitations. Many variables enter into the information that is collected. The patient demographics of one center can vary widely from another center. The manner in which one center conducts follow up or the way they categorize complications can vary vs. another center. One may have older, sicker patients. There are all kinds of variables which makes comparing one center?s experience to another?s more of an apples to oranges comparison. For example, if one were to go back and look at a variety of studies on the SJM valve which has been the subject of over a thousand published papers, you would find a wide variance in the rate of thromboembolic complications even though the valve is the constant.

What does the valve company do? Their marketing departments slave over the data and find a way to ?cherry pick? it. Since the studies have variable results, they take the data from their best studies and compare it to the competitor?s less favorable studies. They do this particularly with complications such as thromboembolism and bleeding among others. They also do this with hemodynamic comparisons which can be highly variable. It is not good science, it is just marketing. I won?t spend the time getting into specifics that I have seen on websites or in advertising, but if you really want to get into that, send me a private email.

I will admit that years ago when I first started seeing On-X data, it was intriguing, although sometimes under the category of ?too good to be true?. I agree with surgeons who believe that all of the bileaflet mechanical valves are now so good that patient related factors are more of a determinant in outcomes than the mechanical valve itself. AlCapshaw2's opinion that the On-X has a greatly reduced propensity for clot formation rings very hollow when there isn?t a great propensity for clot formation in today?s mechanical valves to begin with.

And yet, at least on these forums, On-X is given a free pass when it comes to branding it as ?aspirin only? ?low dose? or ?reduced complication rates?. Please show me good science. Some point to Australian experience with no anticoagulation. Where is that published? Others point to African experience. Actually it is South African experience. I could look up the paper, but all I have to remember about it is that in the disclosure, it was noted that the principal author, a Dr. Williams I believe, is married to a woman who is the principal On-X sales distributor for South Africa. No potential for bias there??

On-X is not without some decent studies. One is titled: Single-Center Experience with the On-X Prosthetic Heart Valve between 1996 and 2005 and the authors were Tossios, Reber, Oustria, Holland-Letz, Germing, Buchwald, and Laczkovicz from the University of Bochum, Bochum, Germany. At 10 year?s, it has reached a benchmark. Laczkovicz implanted the first On-X valve in the world if I have my facts straight so you know they feel good about the valve and the company. I would guess that they have as much if not more experience with the On-X valve than anybody in the world. With all of this experience and good will behind them, here are a couple of things they had to say:

"In the present study the linearized incidence rate of thromboembolic events of 1.49% per pt-yr for AVR and 1.61% per pt-yr for MVR was low but above all, in this series not superior to previously reported rates for other bileaflet valves. New generation bileaflet valves such as Sorin Bicarbon and ATS valves, demonstrated lower rates of thromboembolic events despite a reduced level of anticoagulation.?

And for all of you who are promoting low dose anticoagulation, this item: ?Inadequate or stopped anticoagulation, or low levels of anticoagulation, also rendered patients with an On-X valve prone to thromboembolic complications.?

Conclusion: After almost one decade of clinical experience in a single center, the On-X valve continues to be reliable and effective.

What else can one conclude? It is a good valve, but nothing extraordinary.

There is also a very critical point to note here about alleged aspirin only studies in Europe. I do recall an aspirin only study that was reported on at a surgical meeting a couple of years ago. If it was going well, don?t you suspect you would be hearing biannual if not quarterly updates? In spite of no updates, talk still persists on this forum about aspirin only regimens with On-X. The lead investigator on the aspirin only study was Axel Laczkovicz of Bochum, Germany, the first implanter of an On-X valve, loyal supporter, and an author of the paper we just talked about. And what did that paper say? ?Inadequate or stopped anticoagulation, or low levels of anticoagulation, also rendered patients with an On-X valve prone to thromboembolic complications.?

Short of On-X issuing a press release stating that the aspirin only study was stopped because of unacceptable complication rates, I don?t think the above could make it any clearer that you need to anticoagulate On-X just like the rest of the mechanicals. Heck, ATS has far longer experience with low dose anticoagulation than just about anybody. Bicarbon isn?t available in the US and there are SJM accounts as well as CarboMedics I would guess who have run their noncomplicated aortic valve patients at a INR low target below 2.0 for years. At home monitoring and stable maintenance of INR has been shown to be the key to lowering complications related to anticoagulation.

I am not here to disparage On-X. It is a good valve. Just not better based on the science that I have seen. Promoting it as such on this forum should not go unchallenged.

I will catch up on some other points as time allows.

The information above represents the opinions of the author who is not a medical professional.

Mr. Magoo
 
Great post, Mr. Magoo! Even though it was long, I read the whole thing and found it to be very interesting, especially the part where the guys with the most experience implanting that valve say that it needs anticoagulation. That's my point exactly. If you want a mechanical valve that doesn't require Warfarin, I don't think it's been invented yet. Sure there are people who are noncompliant and don't have an adverse event, but that is pure luck. My brother went quite a while without Warfarin before having a small stroke. I can't remember which valve he has, but I know it's not On-X or St. Jude. As your post says, all bileaflet valves are really good, so chances are, whichever one is used, there won't be any major complications.
 
This forum is intended to be for heart valve recipients, either current or future. But there are NO criteria whatsoever for registering. Consequently, anyone can join and participate, including:

- Persons that work for medical/valve companies
- Persons that own stock or have other interests in medical/valve companies

Where I work we have to file yearly financial disclosure statements attesting to our financial interests. We are prohibited from owning any financial interests in any companies directly or indirectly related to our line of business. Additionally, we are also required to take yearly ethics training and are prohibited from certain practices that could be construed to have an influence on our judgment, particularly if we are in a position related to acquisition or procurement (such as gifts or other promotions from vendors), or would gain some benefit, perceived or real, from such transactions. Such disclosures and practices are not required on this forum, so I would caution the reader to be wary of a lot of the information on this site, particularly from anonymous sources.

Lets refresh the reader?s memory regarding what Mr. Magoo has revealed about his/her background

- From the USA
- In a past life worked in the heart valve business for a couple of decades
- Not a medical professional
- Is not a heart valve recipient, nor a candidate for a heart valve

A veritable fountain of information. Since Mr. Magoo is not a valve recipient, or a future valve recipient, what is his/her interest in even posting to this site? Why, to bash On-X, of course. Although Mr. Magoo claims that he/she is posting to try to rectify what he/she feels are unfair marketing practices by On-X, I suspect that it is due to some financial or other interest that Mr. Magoo has in either ATS, Carbomedics, or St. Jude.

The fact is that the On-X heart valve has certain attributes that make it BETTER than the other bileaflets*, including:

- Lowest rate of thromboembolism
- Lowest mortality rate
- Highly polished hinge pivot area for less chance for clots to form
- Leaflet guards to prevent pannus ingrowth

* Source: http://www.onxlti.com/onxlti-heart-valve.html also http://www.heartvalvechoice.com

What about that sounds ?equal? to the reader?

In comparing On-X to the other bileaflets, Mr. Magoo notes: ?In medical science, a blinded randomized prospective trial is the Holy Grail for determining whether one product or procedure is better than another.? Well, the reader should note that there is a randomized clinical trial ongoing that compares On-X and St. Jude, which should settle this argument once and for all, at least in comparing those two valves. Refer to: http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00639782?term=nct00639782&rank=1

The story of the St. Jude Silzone experience by Lisa in Katy as a cautionary note to the reader regarding On-X is unjustified. Unlike St. Jude, On-X has never used Silzone for the sewing cuff. On-X has been in production since 1996, was approved by the FDA for use in the U.S. in 2001, and there are now over 70,000 On-X valves implanted worldwide. I fail to see how that makes an On-X valve recipient a ?guinea pig?. Frankly, I am insulted by such a comparison.

I get a chuckle out of some of the posters on this website, many of who denigrate to no end just about any and all folks in the anticoagulation portion of the medical industry, even the doctors. However, when it comes to surgeons, they feel like they are gods who are all knowing and have some kind of insider knowledge of the various valves by brand. The fact is that the surgeon may have very little knowledge of the various valve brands, and the surgeon may not even make the decision regarding which brand of valve will be used. The decision was probably determined by whatever contract the medical center has. It could even have been someone in procurement.

Valve replacement is a life-altering event. Lance Armstrong never would have won the Tour de France seven times if he had accepted his original recommendation for treatment for testicular cancer. He did a lot of research and found a less caustic treatment that would not damage his lungs and be as debilitating. As everyone knows, the treatment was successful, and Lance Armstrong went on to set unprecedented records in cycling (source: Its Not About the Bike, My Journey Back to Life, by Lance Armstrong, with Sally Jenkins, Berkley Press, 2000 ? 2001). As Marty says, ?the surgeon is the ?Captain of the ship?, so to speak?. It is true that the surgeon holds your life in his/her hands for a few hours. However, YOU, the valve recipient, are the ?Ship Owner?, and YOU are the one that will have to live with the outcome, not the surgeon.
 
My INR target with my On-x is 2 to 3. I was told that with the SJM valve it would 2.5 to 3.5. That played into my decision and I doubt that the On-x folks picked a lower INR for marketing reasons. If you have evidence to the contrary - please have your lawyer contact me.

I am an Engineer and I work in the nuclear industry where technology, methods and materials are always improving. As long as the 'holy grail' of a life long valve with no anti-coagulation is a target, the technology that goes into heart valves will evolve. The SJM valve has a decade or two on any new valve - a tough comparison for a new valve. But I don't think that mechanical valve technology stopped evolving a decade or two ago.
 
Hmmm, I too have wondered about Mr Magoo's motives for joining this forum. But then, I guess anyone can register, heart patient or not.

Gosh, arguments here used to be about tissue vs mechanical - now they're about different brands of mechanical :eek::eek:
Whatever next?

I've got an On-x and I'm happy - other people have St Jude's and they're happy.
WE'RE ALL HAPPY, WHAT IS THERE TO FIGHT ABOUT????:):)

People are entitled to ask about brands of valves, as the original thread starter here did - it shouldn't turn into an all out war if someone just happens to mention the word "On-x", for heaven's sake!
 
my plan b was.........

my plan b was.........

i was given a 95% certainty of mitral valve repair and choose the on-x valve as my plan b. the surgeon did not agree! but agreed to implant the on-x if necessary. in the event, he had no problems even though he had never done an on-x before.

the surgeon listed his objections to the on-x as follows:
- the unconventional manner in which it has been promoted/marketed
- short track record
- lack of independent peer reviewed reports/tests
- he said fda approval ment nothing
- no surgeon at his hospital had ever used it, he said that had to tell me something
- he said valve company's are here to make money, do not expect them to have altruistc? motives
- he said he did not know how many years successfull track record the on-x would need before he would use it (almost like he would still not use the on-x after it has been around for 25 yrs because the st judes will have been around for 50 years!!!)


catharine burnett at on-x told me:
- her company had indeed resorted to some unconventional marketing activities as they were a small company as they could not possibly match the resources of their competitors which were "mega corporations"
- she said something to the effect that fda approval ment nothing because every valve would eventually get fda approval
- that sales of all mechanical valves had been affected by the concerns about warfarin beaten up by the tissue valve companies (personally, i would rather take warfarin than have another ohs!)

the good folks at valvereplacement.com told me even more!

anyway, i went with the on-x valve and do not regret it; seemed to me that to some extent that my surgeon had closed his mind to the possibility there was something as good, if not better, than the st judes valve.

as i was leaving the hospital, the surgeon made a significant passing comment, had he just read an independent peer reviewed report from germany about the on-x valve and said it was very encouraging

good luck what ever you choose
 
Lets keep it civil and in line. It's a great discussion regardless of participant backgrounds.
 
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