Covid Vaccines

[cldlhd]

While we are not be led by a religious faction, we were indeed a Christian based and created country and are still perceived as such. While the large makeup of the population has diversified in their religious beliefs, with growing agnostic and atheist sectors we still have large roots in Christianity. Maybe not as much as many others country such as South America or EU, but very much still Christian. (I am biting my tongue not to make my personal dig at this here and will be nice and leave it at that.)

I don't know, maybe we're being nit picky but I'm not arguing that a majority of the country didn't, or doesn't still, CALL themselves Christian. Most I know who say so don't go near a Church or behave any more 'christian' then I do. The point is there is no official religion in the United States and going back to the beginning of the country when I imagine the percentage of Christians was much higher they made that clear. I mean if we are does that mean none of the Jews, Muslims or atheists are American?
Besides back to the original point the European nations that colonized and brutally treated large swaths of the world were officially Christian and much more monolithic in that belief so the idea of a country calling itself Christan then treating others like garbage isn't exactly a unique flaw.

 

[cldlhd]

While we are not be led by a religious faction, we were indeed a Christian based and created country and are still perceived as such. While the large makeup of the population has diversified in their religious beliefs, with growing agnostic and atheist sectors we still have large roots in Christianity. Maybe not as much as many others country such as South America or EU, but very much still Christian. (I am biting my tongue not to make my personal dig at this here and will be nice and leave it at that.)

A large part of the founding fathers were believers in the enlightenment which sought to steer us towards science and rationality and away from the mystical. Read what Ben Franklin had to say about it. So while I'm sure some had mixed feelings and went back and forth I believe much of the religious talk eminating from most of the founding fathers was meant to placate the masses and some of the more religious members.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

 

[Keithl]

Besides back to the original point the European nations that colonized and brutally treated large swaths of the world were officially Christian and much more monolithic in that belief so the idea of a country calling itself Christan then treating others like garbage isn't exactly a unique flaw.

I find most religions contain some of the most hypocritical people I have seen. The US has become the poster child for that lately;

Most of them are supposed to be following "God's" ways and preaching's about our fellow man, yet are hyper-oppressively with those that do not follow their beliefs.

"I am pro-life, but then don't want to do anything to help prevent their fellow human's life by getting a vaccine"
"I am pro-life, so you can't be responsible for your own body and get an abortion, but don't tell me to get a vaccine"

And I won't even get into how hypocritical they are when it came to Trump, they sold their soul to the devil to get Supreme Court picks and they used the "no one is perfect and we need to forgive people". Which makes sense when people learn from this mistakes and moral corruptness, but dare I need point out that was not the case with him...

 

[cldlhd]

I find most religions contain some of the most hypocritical people I have seen. The US has become the poster child for that lately;

Most of them are supposed to be following "God's" ways and preaching's about our fellow man, yet are hyper-oppressively with those that do not follow their beliefs.

"I am pro-life, but then don't want to do anything to help prevent their fellow human's life by getting a vaccine"
"I am pro-life, so you can't be responsible for your own body and get an abortion, but don't tell me to get a vaccine"

And I won't even get into how hypocritical they are when it came to Trump, they sold their soul to the devil to get Supreme Court picks and they used the "no one is perfect and we need to forgive people". Which makes sense when people learn from this mistakes and moral corruptness, but dare I need point out that was not the case with him...

Ya I've found that whole "nobody is perfect" and forgiveness argument seems to only go one way. Like if the person in question agrees with me politically no transgression is a problem.....I did find a bit amazing that the same people who couldn't tolerate slick Willie's sleaziness had zero issues with Trump's.....
Anyhoo back to the original subject I recommend everyone get vaccinated, for whatever my humble opinion is worth

 

[tom in MO]

That's not official. That part was added by the Catholics during the commie freakout in the 50's to try to differentiate between us and the godless commies. It has no legal meaning or power, unlike the separation of church and state in the Constitution.

Here I thought it come from Rev. George M. Docherty, New York Avenue Presbyterian Church. "The week of Docherty’s sermon [on adding God to the Pledge], bills were introduced in Congress to add the phrase, and Eisenhower signed the act into law on Flag Day — June 14, 1954. Also, that kind of makes it official.

 

[tom in MO]

Virtually every reader here has at least one comorbidity and most have several. This is a very at risk group. For you to claim that science is just a religion and encourage people to leave it to God and not trust science, on a board like this especially, is extremely irresponsible.

By not getting vaccinated, people actually do harm to us all by allowing the virus to continue to spread and mutate. And, they do harm to the most vulnerable among us, those with comorbidities and those who can not be vaccinated. God tells us to protect the weak and the most vulnerable. Getting vaccinated is not something we do based on fear, as you claim. It is based on responsibility and love for the most vulnerable. Really something else that you evoke faith in God as a reason to not get vaccinated.

I must be a very poor communicator. I will try once more. YOU discount those that do not get vaccinated as being irrational. There is sufficient evidence for rational people to decline the vaccine. Reasons run the gamut of the risk is low of Covid to the specific individual to it's good for Earth to thin the human herd. "Helping others" is an insufficient reason for many to act.

Your belief in statistics and science belies the fact there is fraud in in science, medicine, pharmacology and statistics.. If you want proof of fraud in vaccine production, just look to the contractual scandals surrounding Emergent and the fact that vaccine developers don't need a few billion more in profits. They have already recouped costs with most of them were paid by your tax dollars and not Pfizer et.al. They have reaped insane profits from a pandemic. That's morally unacceptable to some...unless you own stock in the company Your blind belief in science, statistics, the vaccine industry and the CDC is equivalent to what you claim is irrational blind belief of the unvaccinated.

I am vaccinated and encourage others to be vaccinated as well. So I am not "irresponsible." However, I can understand why some have decided differently. If you bother to listen, they are all around you, and within their world view they are as rational as you believe you are.

My grandma believed the weather changed when they put a man on the moon. Maybe that was irrational, but she still made good choices in her life and she had the right to not be belittled for her opinion.

 

[cldlhd]

Here I thought it come from Rev. George M. Docherty, New York Avenue Presbyterian Church. "The week of Docherty’s sermon [on adding God to the Pledge], bills were introduced in Congress to add the phrase, and Eisenhower signed the act into law on Flag Day — June 14, 1954. Also, that kind of makes it official.

Made what official? It added some words to a school children's pledge . Doesn't even say a single thing about being Christian. Could be a Hindi god.....also it doesn't establish the country as officially Christian.

 

[cldlhd]

I must be a very poor communicator. I will try once more. YOU discount those that do not get vaccinated as being irrational. There is sufficient evidence for rational people to decline the vaccine. Reasons run the gamut of the risk is low of Covid to the specific individual to it's good for Earth to thin the human herd. "Helping others" is an insufficient reason for many to act.

Your belief in statistics and science belies the fact there is fraud in in science, medicine, pharmacology and statistics.. If you want proof of fraud in vaccine production, just look to the contractual scandals surrounding Emergent and the fact that vaccine developers don't need a few billion more in profits. They have already recouped costs with most of them were paid by your tax dollars and not Pfizer et.al. They have reaped insane profits from a pandemic. That's morally unacceptable to some...unless you own stock in the company Your blind belief in science, statistics, the vaccine industry and the CDC is equivalent to what you claim is irrational blind belief of the unvaccinated.

I am vaccinated and encourage others to be vaccinated as well. So I am not "irresponsible." However, I can understand why some have decided differently. If you bother to listen, they are all around you, and within their world view they are as rational as you believe you are.

My grandma believed the weather changed when they put a man on the moon. Maybe that was irrational, but she still made good choices in her life and she had the right to not be belittled for her opinion.

. I wouldn't belittle her but obviously that belief is pretty far out there. You're engaging in that ridiculous notion that all opinions are equal so who are we to say what is right or wrong? In other words decades of education and expertise means no more than the opinion from the guy sitting next to you at the bar...... That's a strawman argument to point out that there's fraud in science so therefore any scientific conclusion can be discounted and you can take the medical advice from anyone to be of equal veracity. So you're saying a lesson organization is 100% perfect and pure then none of their advice should be taken any more seriously? Regardless of the credentials?

 

[cldlhd]

I must be a very poor communicator. I will try once more. YOU discount those that do not get vaccinated as being irrational. There is sufficient evidence for rational people to decline the vaccine. Reasons run the gamut of the risk is low of Covid to the specific individual to it's good for Earth to thin the human herd. "Helping others" is an insufficient reason for many to act.

Your belief in statistics and science belies the fact there is fraud in in science, medicine, pharmacology and statistics.. If you want proof of fraud in vaccine production, just look to the contractual scandals surrounding Emergent and the fact that vaccine developers don't need a few billion more in profits. They have already recouped costs with most of them were paid by your tax dollars and not Pfizer et.al. They have reaped insane profits from a pandemic. That's morally unacceptable to some...unless you own stock in the company Your blind belief in science, statistics, the vaccine industry and the CDC is equivalent to what you claim is irrational blind belief of the unvaccinated.

I am vaccinated and encourage others to be vaccinated as well. So I am not "irresponsible." However, I can understand why some have decided differently. If you bother to listen, they are all around you, and within their world view they are as rational as you believe you are.

My grandma believed the weather changed when they put a man on the moon. Maybe that was irrational, but she still made good choices in her life and she had the right to not be belittled for her opinion.

I would consider it "being good for the earth to thin the human herd" as being irrational, well at least pretty anti social. It would either indicate a desire to die in order to help the earth ( which begs the question why not just finish your self off ) to the idea that you want to help spread the infection to kill others and thin the herd. Which is pretty psychopathic. Either way it's pretty irrational

 

[Keithl]

I must be a very poor communicator. I will try once more. YOU discount those that do not get vaccinated as being irrational. There is sufficient evidence for rational people to decline the vaccine. Reasons run the gamut of the risk is low of Covid to the specific individual to it's good for Earth to thin the human herd. "Helping others" is an insufficient reason for many to act.

I am vaccinated and encourage others to be vaccinated as well. So I am not "irresponsible." However, I can understand why some have decided differently. If you bother to listen, they are all around you, and within their world view they are as rational as you believe you are.

You have some weakly mild points. There is no evidence that a rational person should decline the vaccine. Now a person that has had adverse vaccine reactions or is at risk for complications from a various vaccine maybe. In the US almost all school districts require you to have certain vaccinates before starting school. Covid will surely be added to the list once approved for children. I have heard "medical pros" quote concern about the speed the vaccine was created as a reason and that vaccines should take 10 years. They ignore all the advances in science.

Also as I have previously stated I believe the bulk of unvaccinated in the US is all about politics. Those that have Netflix should with "The Social Dilemma" while I knew most of the info covered, it really brings it to a new level and explains the expanding divide between people today globally. I don't believe in god or the devil, but Social Media is the closest thing we have to the devil.

 

[sharky7]

Argue all you want, make me out to be someone that is stating that "I AM AN EXPERT" when clearly I am not doing that, I get my information from "Experts" just like everyone else, and I choose to believe mine instead of yours! Even the numbers from the CDC and on their own sites conflict with what many are saying and claiming! so here ya go, and if ya not even going to watch this, then there is no hope for any of us! we are all truly doomed to hell forever!
https://www.bitchute.com/video/fkQZ..._2hSoQYKX490kEKnk5waNFYgYWamlPMojwvzuyIFfjxnE

Hate coming from those that seek to do nothing but discredit others, and in anyway that they can, and of course there is the RACIST CARD that they love to play, among many others!!! WOW TRUMP was the best POTUS ever! the USA needs him or someone like him.

 

[cldlhd]

Hate coming from those that seek to do nothing but discredit others, and in anyway that they can, and of course there is the RACIST CARD that they love to play, among many others!!! WOW TRUMP was the best POTUS ever! the USA needs him or someone like him.

I don't remember calling anyone racist. I understand some people are Republicans some are Democrats some are neither. I'm pretty moderate myself but no one with an IQ bumping anywhere near triple digits thinks Trump was the best president ever. Where's the logic? Is it because he repeatedly told his mush brained followers that he was " the bestest": while jabbering in the 3rd person like a mental patient?

 

[pellicle]

There is no evidence that a rational person should decline the vaccine.

Agreed. There is however not only social contract (in theory we live in a mutually cooperative society), there is something else possible. I loved this quote:
https://www.upworthy.com/amp/arnold-schwarzenegger-real-freedom-anti-maskers-2654649322

There is a big, gaping hole in the center of the belief that refusing to wear a mask or get vaccinated is a patriotic expression of the personal freedoms we enjoy as Americans.​

​

Sure, you're free to do as you wish, but the fastest way for people to invite tyranny into their lives is to forget that freedom is predicated on responsibility and accountability.​

​

Refusing to wear a mask in a place where COVID-19 is likely to spread puts yourself and others at risk. Refusing to get vaccinated only promotes the spread of the virus. The longer this pandemic goes on, the more likely it is that freedom-loving people will be subjected to punitive restrictions from lawmakers and businesses seeking to crack down on those who aren't being accountable.​

​

Freedom must be accompanied by accountability or society quickly becomes uncivilized and that's a fertile breeding ground for authoritarianism.​

​

​

 

[bluetux]

You vaccinate to protect yourself, not to protect someone else or grandma. The fact that those vaccinated can carry the virus and infect others, reinfect themselves and even die after the vaccine, makes the theory of social contract and conditional freedom, used to force people to get vaccinated, look more like communism, I know what I'm talking about because I've lived this.

 

[pellicle]

You vaccinate to protect yourself, not to protect someone else or grandma.

Incorrect
You vaccinate to reduce your chances of getting it and minimising the time you are likely to spread it. Perhaps to zero.

You vaccinate to prevent as many people from getting it and thus minimising the potentially for mutations.

It's people who don't get it who have helped delta exist.

The fact that those vaccinated can carry the virus and infect others, reinfect themselves and even die after the vaccine, makes the theory of social contract and conditional freedom,

I believe you are mistaken

PS: here you go
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.11.21253275v1
further reading can be found if you search generally on the old topic of "the effect of vaccination on transmission"

Happy reading now please, go get vaccinated if you haven't

 

[Keithl]

I don't remember calling anyone racist. I understand some people are Republicans some are Democrats some are neither. I'm pretty moderate myself but no one with an IQ bumping anywhere near triple digits thinks Trump was the best president ever. Where's the logic? Is it because he repeatedly told his mush brained followers that he was " the bestest": while jabbering in the 3rd person like a mental patient?

Not a Trump fan, but I do know some very intelligent folks that while they did not think he was the best president ever, they liked what he was doing. Seems many people will discard corruptness, moral failures and just being an *** if they get what they want. To me that is so what a reflection on the type of person they are that they are about themselves more than the greater good. I do understand the dilemma at times. My congressional district has always been choosing the better of 2 evils, I have hated both candidates and wind up selecting the one less bad because she aligns with my political view more. So I can see how some intelligent people vote for Trump. What I think we saw in 2020 was moderates that discarded some of his failings and voted for him because he aligned with their views more than Biden, decided his 4 years pushed them the other way. What I hope, but am not convinced, is if he runs in 24 that even more moderate s will abandon him after his denial and lies on the election as well as how he handled Jan. 6.

 

[bluetux]

Incorrect
You vaccinate to reduce your chances of getting it and minimising the time you are likely to spread it. Perhaps to zero.

You vaccinate to prevent as many people from getting it and thus minimising the potentially for mutations.

It's people who don't get it who have helped delta exist.




I believe you are mistaken

PS: here you go
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.11.21253275v1
further reading can be found if you search generally on the old topic of "the effect of vaccination on transmission"

Happy reading now please, go get vaccinated if you haven't

I'm afraid that such a study is neither sufficient nor convincing. Pre-existing health problems should be considered and discussed with doctors before you take the risk of inoculation with an experimental serum for which neither the manufacturer assumes responsibility.
As for my vaccination, 40 years ago, about a year after I made a "mandatory" vaccine at the time, the symptoms of something that turned out to be Hodgkin's lymphoma appeared. This disease was also cured with the help of a strong and extensive irradiation that later destroyed my thyroid and the aortic valve. The ascending Aorta almost became a "porcelain aorta" and drove out the first team of cardiovascular surgeons.
So I'm very reluctant to hear about "vaccines".

 

[Keithl]

I'm afraid that such a study is neither sufficient nor convincing. Pre-existing health problems should be considered and discussed with doctors before you take the risk of inoculation with an experimental serum for which neither the manufacturer assumes responsibility.
As for my vaccination, 40 years ago, about a year after I made a "mandatory" vaccine at the time, the symptoms of something that turned out to be Hodgkin's lymphoma appeared. This disease was also cured with the help of a strong and extensive irradiation that later destroyed my thyroid and the aortic valve. The ascending Aorta almost became a "porcelain aorta" and drove out the first team of cardiovascular surgeons.
So I'm very reluctant to hear about "vaccines".

While you may have a valid case, many of the people refusing the vaccine do not. Statistically when you are mass vaccinating people other diseases and illnesses will occur with or without the vaccine. Too many people are lumping proximity based health issues into a direct correlation from the vaccine. That is why the medical community tries to research these events to see is there is a common side effect. J&J looks like clotting is a legit low possibility. While I am skeptical that 30K trial patients is enough I am sure they arrive at this numbers due to statistical probabilities. In the end every medicine and/or medial procedure comes with risk. People are blowing the risk out of proportion and just jumping on the political camp that fits them to avoid the vaccine. .

 

[cldlhd]

Not a Trump fan, but I do know some very intelligent folks that while they did not think he was the best president ever, they liked what he was doing. Seems many people will discard corruptness, moral failures and just being an *** if they get what they want. To me that is so what a reflection on the type of person they are that they are about themselves more than the greater good. I do understand the dilemma at times. My congressional district has always been choosing the better of 2 evils, I have hated both candidates and wind up selecting the one less bad because she aligns with my political view more. So I can see how some intelligent people vote for Trump. What I think we saw in 2020 was moderates that discarded some of his failings and voted for him because he aligned with their views more than Biden, decided his 4 years pushed them the other way. What I hope, but am not convinced, is if he runs in 24 that even more moderate s will abandon him after his denial and lies on the election as well as how he handled Jan. 6.

There's a difference between voting for someone because you don't like either, which some did with Trump, and ludicrously stating he's the best president ever. I mean I guess the supposed wall that Mexico paid for, oh wait the wall didn't happen nor did Mexico paying for it, or the great infrastructure rebuilding of America makes him the best, oh wait that didn't happen either. I guess the tremendous trade deal with China that he signed makes him the best Oh wait a minute that didn't happen either. He did fall in love with Kim jong-il though that is something I never saw happening..... Now it isn't strictly a regional thing because I know very intelligent people from the south and I know idiots from up here where I'm at but it does seem like you had to be a first class rube to believe all that nonsense. Anybody with any sense knew it was all BS from the start, his entire life has run on two things: Daddy's money and BS , most people from the New York area have known this for a long time that's why his nickname was Don the con, it's sort of reminds me of those old carpet baggers and showman who would go down south and con people out of their money. He clearly has contempt for his own base, he wants to be hanging out with the Tom Hanks of the world but as they despise him he's forced to seek the applause of those that he would run over on the way out of the rally towards the airport without thinking twice about it..... The only thing he did is what any other Republican would have done, a big tax cut for the wealthy and for corporations. So yes I can understand somebody who's well off Maybe voting for him out of the room best interests thinking they will get a few percentages off their tax bill none of those people think he was the best president.

 

[cldlhd]

I'm afraid that such a study is neither sufficient nor convincing. Pre-existing health problems should be considered and discussed with doctors before you take the risk of inoculation with an experimental serum for which neither the manufacturer assumes responsibility.
As for my vaccination, 40 years ago, about a year after I made a "mandatory" vaccine at the time, the symptoms of something that turned out to be Hodgkin's lymphoma appeared. This disease was also cured with the help of a strong and extensive irradiation that later destroyed my thyroid and the aortic valve. The ascending Aorta almost became a "porcelain aorta" and drove out the first team of cardiovascular surgeons.
So I'm very reluctant to hear about "vaccines".

"Experimental serum"? So which vaccine that you received on a mandatory basis caused that issue? What year was it? Assuming that's what actually caused it things do move on technologically wise. That's what is called anecdotal. Even if what happened to you is true and a result from a vaccine that doesn't mean that vaccines in general are no good.