Covid Vaccines

[cldlhd]

and yet I love Fargo (the movie, not that crappy series)

You need to understand a basic point here, Australia (like much of the world) is inundated with American shows. I grew up on Gilligans Island, The Adams family, Gomer Pile, Beverly Hillbillies, 21 Jump Street ... locally produced content is essentially zero compared to the tsunami of American TV and Movie content. So if you think that Australians know as little about American culture as Americans know about yours I suggest you think about this more.

Even this locally produced Childrens Science Education program featured an American Physicist (apparently ours weren't good enough showmen)


Julius was an Icon in my childhood and I still quote him today.

PS he's a great fellow and his heart is in the right place

Yeah the movie Fargo was really good. The show, obviously, isn't this good but it's still watchable compared to a lot of what's out there. I think each year is a totally different storyline

 

[pellicle]

... even mad hermits aren't totally mad
https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2021-0...-gets-COVID-19-vaccine-12H72dc94Xe/index.html

 

[Mister_James]

The Big Lebowski is very American. It is hard to get it if you are not but truth be told the humor there is very infantile IMO but there's some moments of divine utterances.

 

[cldlhd]

The Big Lebowski is very American. It is hard to get it if you are not but truth be told the humor there is very infantile IMO but there's some moments of divine utterances.

Well.....that's just like your opinion....man
P..S. that was a line from the movie not a personal attack. Personally I consider infantile humor to be a typical Adam Sandler movie

 

[pellicle]

The Big Lebowski is very American. It is hard to get it if you are not but truth be told the humor there is very infantile IMO but there's some moments of divine utterances.

Maybe its more this

 

[cldlhd]

Maybe its more this

I like Stephen Fry and British (dry) comedy but obviously there's some generalizations there. I mean when he was talking about wise cracking comedians he could have been talking about Ricky Gervais. The country is too big, I know people here in the States who could watch Monty Python over and over......so not quite so monolithic. I don't frequent self help sections in book stores but the idea of optimism and improving yourself doesn't seem so bad though and constant dry sarcasm can get old after a bit.

 

[Kathmack]

Yep, amazingly good movie at so many levels

It’s indeed a very good movie. Where do you reside and I like the word pellicle even though I don’t know it’s meaning - but I’m probably not supposed to know the meaning!

 

[almost_hectic]

So third shot for vaccines has been approved in the US but I think its reserved for patients at high risk, like people who have had organ transplants and the like and may have compromised immune systems... at any rate, a family member asked me if I was going to get the third shot. I said I don't think its for me. I think she confused implant for transplant. But then I thought, I wonder, if they play loose with the rules, should I get the third shot if I can? I don't know...

 

[tom in MO]

Your coworker's situation does not justify new math. There is no question that the statistics are there to overwhelmingly support getting vaccinated for both 1) your individual self interest and 2) in the best interest of society.
Are there genuine medical exceptions? Of course. Not talking about that. Do some families have experiences that would make their decision not to vaccinate, due to fear not science, somewhat understandable? Perhaps. My oldest daughter had a real reaction to the MMR vaccine, and developed a condition known as ITP. This is a well documented side effect that occurs in 1/25,000 children from the MMR vaccine. With ITP the platelet count drops to life-threatening low levels. She developed bruises all over her body and we had to have her treated by a specialist who treats children with leukemia. Using drugs to raise the platelet count for such children, he was able to normalize her platelet count within about 4 weeks. Very scary time for us, as a bump to the head could have been fatal. Try keeping a hyper 2 year old from bumping her head for a month.
Would it have been understandable if my family developed an irrational fear of all vaccines from that experience? Perhaps. Would statistics be on my side to support this fear? No. Would it be debatable? No. At least not in the sense that there are two sides that have legitimate arguments. Unless you mean in the sense that everything is debatable, such as whether the Earth is round or flat.

There is nothing irrational about fearing vaccines if you have experienced horrible effects from one. Seems pretty rational to many.

Your belief in statistics is almost irrational, you mustn't know many statisticians. Probability is not certainty. Nobel laureate, physicist and chemist, discoverer of magnetic resonance, Izzie Rabi - You know that, according to quantum theory, if two particles collide with enough energy you can, in principle, with an infinitesimal probability, produce two grand pianos. The line between possible and probable shifts with each new data point, nothing is certain unless it's a "law". It's about relative risk and who you trust and what you fear or don't fear. Do you trust Faucci who has changed his tune over the months, no mask, mask, no mask and now mask again for the foreseeable future? Do you trust Biden and Trump who are not scientists, do you trust an infectious disease expert from Harvard more than one from the University of Maryland? Remember none of those people are statisticians...

 

[Keithl]

So third shot for vaccines has been approved in the US but I think its reserved for patients at high risk, like people who have had organ transplants and the like and may have compromised immune systems... at any rate, a family member asked me if I was going to get the third shot. I said I don't think its for me. I think she confused implant for transplant. But then I thought, I wonder, if they play loose with the rules, should I get the third shot if I can? I don't know...

It was approved for immuno-compromised people as they never built enough antibodies form the first 2 shots. Latest Pfizer data shows after 5 months the efficacy in general drops. I know 2 vaccinated people I that have had breakthrough Covid with symptoms, one went to ER. Also those over 60 are 3x more likely to get breakthrough Covid.


https://www.reuters.com/business/he...-breakthrough-odds-rise-with-time-2021-08-09/

My thinking now is October will be 6 months for me and I am 60 so whether FDA approves it or not I will likely get dose 3 around then. I wok in an office environment where maybe 10-20% of the people wear masks in common areas.

 

[Keithl]

There is nothing irrational about fearing vaccines if you have experienced horrible effects from one. Seems pretty rational to many.

Your belief in statistics is almost irrational, you mustn't know many statisticians. Probability is not certainty. Nobel laureate, physicist and chemist, discoverer of magnetic resonance, Izzie Rabi - You know that, according to quantum theory, if two particles collide with enough energy you can, in principle, with an infinitesimal probability, produce two grand pianos. The line between possible and probable shifts with each new data point, nothing is certain unless it's a "law". It's about relative risk and who you trust and what you fear or don't fear. Do you trust Faucci who has changed his tune over the months, no mask, mask, no mask and now mask again for the foreseeable future? Do you trust Biden and Trump who are not scientists, do you trust an infectious disease expert from Harvard more than one from the University of Maryland? Remember none of those people are statisticians...

While probability s not certainty it is guidance to wager my bet. When you see the percentages of people that get Covid and get serious on top of possible long term Covid (I believe Israel showed some long term covid in breakthrough cases)the safer gamble is the vaccine unless you have frailly history of reactions to vaccines.

CDC says 1 in 6 Covid cases will be severe yet vaccine deaths are fractions of a percent. Life is a gamble and statistics with odds, I know I am not betting person so when I am forced I will play the statistics/odds every time.

 

[cldlhd]

There is nothing irrational about fearing vaccines if you have experienced horrible effects from one. Seems pretty rational to many.

Your belief in statistics is almost irrational, you mustn't know many statisticians. Probability is not certainty. Nobel laureate, physicist and chemist, discoverer of magnetic resonance, Izzie Rabi - You know that, according to quantum theory, if two particles collide with enough energy you can, in principle, with an infinitesimal probability, produce two grand pianos. The line between possible and probable shifts with each new data point, nothing is certain unless it's a "law". It's about relative risk and who you trust and what you fear or don't fear. Do you trust Faucci who has changed his tune over the months, no mask, mask, no mask and now mask again for the foreseeable future? Do you trust Biden and Trump who are not scientists, do you trust an infectious disease expert from Harvard more than one from the University of Maryland? Remember none of those people are statisticians...

We all know why fauci so-called changed his tune regarding masks. First of all in the beginning it was in widespread enough to warrant it and culturally They knew that there's so many stupid rednecks in this country that would fight it tooth and nail even as they watched people they know die tbat it would be an uphill battle. It's been so well reported that I'm sure even in the sticks where you live and he also didn't propose masks in the beginning because he knew there would be a shortage for healthcare workers who are in contact with the infected everyday all day. This has been explained slowly and patiently so even the most thick headed amongst us would understand it, or at least you would think so. I can almost understand somebody being skeptical of a new vaccine but coming out against masks or even mentioning it shows your true colors. Don't get me wrong I don't like wearing one either, since I've been fully vaccinated I've rarely worn one, but the reason why they're calling for people to wear them now is because obviously the Delta variant is spreading like crazy and one of the reasons is because there are so many unvaccinated people who are going around maskless because you don't know who is vaccinated and who isn't. So us who did get vaccinated or going to be drug back into it because of you lot

 

[cldlhd]

There is nothing irrational about fearing vaccines if you have experienced horrible effects from one. Seems pretty rational to many.

Your belief in statistics is almost irrational, you mustn't know many statisticians. Probability is not certainty. Nobel laureate, physicist and chemist, discoverer of magnetic resonance, Izzie Rabi - You know that, according to quantum theory, if two particles collide with enough energy you can, in principle, with an infinitesimal probability, produce two grand pianos. The line between possible and probable shifts with each new data point, nothing is certain unless it's a "law". It's about relative risk and who you trust and what you fear or don't fear. Do you trust Faucci who has changed his tune over the months, no mask, mask, no mask and now mask again for the foreseeable future? Do you trust Biden and Trump who are not scientists, do you trust an infectious disease expert from Harvard more than one from the University of Maryland? Remember none of those people are statisticians...

I certainly trust Biden on it more than Trump because Biden repeatedly refers to the experts. Trump just talked out of his ass as usual, garbage about how it'll just magically go away when the Easter Bunny comes etc etc. So I would not take medical advice off of either but I prefer a politician who says trust the medical experts over the shyster buffoon who says I'm the only one who knows what's what and is actually mental enough to believe he could suggest possible treatments for the experts to look into even though he has less medical training than my dog

 

[Chuck C]

Probability is not certainty.

Now your creating a straw man argument. Of course probability is not certainty and I never claimed it was. But, understanding probability is crucial to determining risk vs reward. And if one has no clue about probability, best to just follow the advice of the experts, which are all saying "Get vaccinated", well, unless we want to start going down the quack watch list and pretend that they are experts, in which case you can find just about any opinion under the sun.

There is nothing irrational about fearing vaccines if you have experienced horrible effects from one. Seems pretty rational to many.

It certainly can be irrational. If the fear is not based on science, but based on emotion, that would fit the definition of irrational. As I shared, my daughter had a bad reaction to the MMR vaccine, which led to ITP. If the family then avoided vaccines based our emotions, rather than science, this would be irrational- which by definition means not logical or reasonable. But, as I noted, perhaps understandable if a family in such circumstances did let their emotions get the better of them.

People are choosing not to get the vaccine, due to fears which are either imaginary, or emotionally amplified, and in doing so, they are putting themselves at significant risk. But to see this it does require either trusting the experts or having about an 8th grade level of math comprehension, so that one can read the studies and understand the statistics.

 

[pellicle]

... Where do you reside

Queensland, Australia

and I like the word pellicle even qthough I don’t know it’s meaning - but I’m probably not supposed to know the meaning!

It's got a few meanings relevant to my life

1
: a thin skin or film: such as. a : an outer membrane of some protozoans (such as euglenoids or paramecia)

2

apart from liking that camera I felt that the idea of a pellicle mirror was interesting because partly it transmits what on the other side of it and partly it reflects the vision of the looker back to themselves.
Best Wishes

 

[pellicle]

but obviously there's some generalizations there. I

Your answer seems quite binary in thinking and black and white. Of course it's generalised, without a dissertation what else can be said of a population of over 300 million?

 

[Chuck C]

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/vaccine-side-effects-vs-covid-19-damage-theres-no-comparison

 

[cldlhd]

Your answer seems quite binary in thinking and black and white. Of course it's generalised, without a dissertation what else can be said of a population of over 300 million?

Well then maybe preface it by saying it's a generalization. Like you said you and a lot of the world has been bombarded by US media for so long I'm sure there's a certain percentage of it, maybe even subconscious, that's a resentment.
I mean I would consider Stephen Fry making broad generalizations saying things like "American comedians are like this" is an example of binary thinking or maybe the person using it as an example is......
I merely pointed it out

 

[pellicle]

Well then maybe preface it by saying it's a generalization.

he did, also he's a comedian and so its not a socio-political dissertation. Its like all things that come out of peoples mouths, its their opinion. I happened to find it well phrased.

 

[cldlhd]

he did, also he's a comedian and so its not a socio-political dissertation. Its like all things that come out of peoples mouths, its their opinion. I happened to find it well phrased.

Oh I'm not all butt hurt or angry about it just having a friendly little banter. I get where he's coming from -the Brits lost their empire and they're good at that sort of contradictory love of The class system they kind of can't let go of and also enjoying making fun of it.