Covid Vaccines

[cldlhd]

It's important to understand that as a larger and larger proportion of the population is vaccinated, a larger percentage of total cases will come from breakthrough cases. This does not mean that the vaccine is not preventing cases or lessening the effects. The vast majority of deaths and severe cases are from the unvaccinated population.

Exactly, obviously preventing further infection and spread of the virus which would also give us more chances for mutations is important but it's equally important to realize that even though there may be breakthrough cases it appears that 99% or so of all people in the hospital now with covid-19 are unvaccinated. I'm fully vaccinated and I feel fine but for all I know I could be covid19 positive right now. However if I suffer no ill effects and my immune system can battle it off largely due to my vaccination then that is a good outcome.

 

[cldlhd]

With respect, Chuck, I think that the low percentage of breakthrough case counts will be less true as Delta spreads. As a larger and larger proportion of the population is vaccinated, a larger percentage of total cases will come from breakthrough cases. There's no question, however that severity is lessened w/ the vaccine.

Well yes that is how it should logically work. I mean if 100% of the population is fully vaccinated then all cases would be breakthrough cases no? The fact that such a high percentage of the population is vaccinated and such a low percentage of known cases are breakthrough proves the effectiveness beyond reasonable doubt

 

[Michael O]

Agreed. I'm just seeing the "50% of cases are breakthrough cases" be twisted to "vaccines don't work", and it's frustrating.

 

[rich01]

Once again, hats off to Dick for an excellent point. I would venture a guess that most of us on this board owe our chance at a normal life span to medical and scientific advances. Wouldn’t we all like the luxury of a 20 or 30 year track record for the valves we choose and the medical procedures we undergo? The fact is, that more often than not we don’t have that luxury. Our choices are just to stark, trust the medical professionals or die.

Wouldn’t it be grand if we had time for Covid vaccines to have 10 or 20 years of study before we choose them? But we don’t. The choice is just to stark, trust the vaccine and the years of research behind it or risk getting covid, maybe dying. Maybe having long term health issues or passing it to someone we love who dies.

If someone has severe aortic stenosis, they will likely die if the valve is not replaced.

The chance of dying from Covid-19 is relatively low (case fatality rate under 2%) plus there are other options than just the vaccines to prevent Covid-19 and to strengthen your immune system against infection. Apples and oranges as they say.

What I don't understand is when it comes to exploring options for valve treatment, we look at different options, different hospitals, different doctors, different procedures, etc. We offer advice and support to each other.

But when it comes to the Covid-19 vaccine, some seem to believe they know what is best for everyone, won't look at other options, only believe the information put out by governments, and belittle people with different opinions.

I have thick skin and am comfortable making what I think is my best decision. I don't tell other people what they should do and I believe whether someone chooses to get vaccinated or not is their own private medical choice.

I take a daily regimen of supplements including a natural antiviral that strengthens my immune system and aids in fighting off any viruses I may come in contact with. I also take a weekly dose of Ivermectin which has proven to be preventative for Covid-19, is an antiviral, an antibiotic, and an anti-inflammatory.

I wash my hands after being out. I spend minimal time in stores and other closed areas where there are lots of people and, as much as possible, I have conversations outside in the fresh air. I also get a monthly antibodies test.

 

[Chuck C]

With respect, Chuck, I think that the low percentage of breakthrough case counts will be less true as Delta spreads. As a larger and larger proportion of the population is vaccinated, a larger percentage of total cases will come from breakthrough cases. There's no question, however that severity is lessened w/ the vaccine.

Yes, absolutely. There will be more breakthrough cases, as the vaccine is not as effective against Delta- I believe 88% vs 95%, although it varies by vaccine and differs slightly among studies- see link below. against the native virus. But, getting vaccinated is the best way to reduce the number of those infected by the Delta variant and the risk for those unvaccinated will remain astronomically higher than for the vaccinated.

https://www.healthline.com/health-n...-the-delta-variant#Vaccines-vs.-delta-variant

 

[Michael O]

. I also take a weekly dose of Ivermectin which has proven to be preventative for Covid-19, is an antiviral, an antibiotic, and an anti-inflammatory.

Wait? Ivermectin the anti-parasitic? You're kidding, right? Benefit of the doubt that you got the drug name wrong? (I hope)

Edit: I guess it is being studied, but I don't understand the logic of taking a drug that is only approved for study use but reject the "experimental" vaccine.

 

[Chuck C]

Agreed. I'm just seeing the "50% of cases are breakthrough cases" be twisted to "vaccines don't work", and it's frustrating.

Indeed. And mathematically, this should not be a surprising number, when the population in question, Israel, is highly vaccinated.

 

[Chuck C]

Wait? Ivermectin the anti-parasitic? You're kidding, right? Benefit of the doubt that you got the drug name wrong? (I hope)

That was not a typo on his part. One of the hot topics among the conspiracy crowd is that all the researches in the world, all the doctors and most of the governments are conspiring to hide the fact that Ivermectin cures Covid-19. Why would they do this? Well, take your pick from the looney bin of theories:
-to keep making billions from vaccine sales
-they need to get the nanites into our blood so that they can control us, so need to make people think there is no cure.

The truth is that there is not yet sufficient data on Ivermectin.

I'm editing to add the following:

If there was evidence that Ivermectin was a wonder drug for Covid-19, the company that would have the most to benefit financially from this information, Merck, the manufacturer of Ivermectin, should be very excited about it. But, please read the statement by Merck regarding Ivermectin on their website:

"It is important to note that, to-date, our analysis has identified:

• No scientific basis for a potential therapeutic effect against COVID-19 from pre-clinical studies;
• No meaningful evidence for clinical activity or clinical efficacy in patients with COVID-19 disease, and;
• A concerning lack of safety data in the majority of studies."

https://www.merck.com/news/merck-statement-on-ivermectin-use-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/
Currently, the data on Ivermectin is far from convincing. As there are ongoing studies, that may change in time.

 

[rich01]

I hate to trouble you with factual information but the fact that some of them tested positive for covid isn't proof that the vaccine doesn't work. In other words I don't know what cave you live in but I have heard over and over again that you can still catch covid being vaccinated just prevents you , at a 90 some percent rate, from getting sick enough to go into the hospital or die. So in other words if you could get vaccinated, catch covid-19, and be sick with what would amount to a mild cold or catch it unvaccinated and end up in an ICU or dead these are not similar outcomes.
Second of all how do you know they spread it to others?
Finally the Delta variant is clearly more contagious which is all the more reason to get vaccinated

I didn't say the vaccine didn't work. You are creating a strawman argument.

You Posted - experts say that while not impossible, COVID-19 transmission by fully vaccinated people is unlikely. "

I simply pointed out that it appears a Pelosi aid and a WH aid were infected by the fully vaccinated Texas Democrats.

Vaccinated Staffers for Pelosi, WH Test COVID Positive After Texas Democrats Gathering

 

[Michael O]

@Chuck C Yup - shame on me for jumping to conclusions. It sounds like it's worth studying, but the early studies have been withdrawn by the authors/journals. Again, I guess I don't understand the value of not getting the vaccine because it's "experimental", but taking a drug that has 3500 data points (as long as the study wasn't faked). Huge study supporting ivermectin as Covid treatment withdrawn over ethical concerns

 

[rich01]

Agreed. I'm just seeing the "50% of cases are breakthrough cases" be twisted to "vaccines don't work", and it's frustrating.

Who twisted it? 50% of new delta cases in Israel are breakthrough cases is a fact.

 

[Michael O]

Who twisted it?

Not you, that I've seen in this thread.

 

[rich01]

Yup - shame on me for jumping to conclusions. It sounds like it's worth studying, but the early studies have been withdrawn by the authors/journals. Again, I guess I don't understand the value of not getting the vaccine because it's "experimental", but taking a drug that has 3500 data points (as long as the study wasn't faked). Huge study supporting ivermectin as Covid treatment withdrawn over ethical concerns

The study you linked to was an abomination. There are good studies out there for anyone who wants to find them, but the way search engines work these days, the bad studies always appear first. There are doctors successfully using Ivermectin and HCQ in the US and all over the world. I don't care if you don't want to read studies for yourself and just rely on headlines. I don't care if you take Ivermectin or not. I don't care if you get vaccinated or not.

 

[cldlhd]

If someone has severe aortic stenosis, they will likely die if the valve is not replaced.

The chance of dying from Covid-19 is relatively low (case fatality rate under 2%) plus there are other options than just the vaccines to prevent Covid-19 and to strengthen your immune system against infection. Apples and oranges as they say.

What I don't understand is when it comes to exploring options for valve treatment, we look at different options, different hospitals, different doctors, different procedures, etc. We offer advice and support to each other.

But when it comes to the Covid-19 vaccine, some seem to believe they know what is best for everyone, won't look at other options, only believe the information put out by governments, and belittle people with different opinions.

I have thick skin and am comfortable making what I think is my best decision. I don't tell other people what they should do and I believe whether someone chooses to get vaccinated or not is their own private medical choice.

I take a daily regimen of supplements including a natural antiviral that strengthens my immune system and aids in fighting off any viruses I may come in contact with. I also take a weekly dose of Ivermectin which has proven to be preventative for Covid-19, is an antiviral, an antibiotic, and an anti-inflammatory.

I wash my hands after being out. I spend minimal time in stores and other closed areas where there are lots of people and, as much as possible, I have conversations outside in the fresh air. I also get a monthly antibodies test.

You can eat well, take care if yourself to boost your immune system AND take a vaccine. They're not mutually exclusive

 

[cldlhd]

I didn't say the vaccine didn't work. You are creating a strawman argument.

You Posted - experts say that while not impossible, COVID-19 transmission by fully vaccinated people is unlikely. "

I simply pointed out that it appears a Pelosi aid and a WH aid were infected by the fully vaccinated Texas Democrats.

Vaccinated Staffers for Pelosi, WH Test COVID Positive After Texas Democrats Gathering

How do you know where they got infected? You're the one being disingenuous by suggesting that if the vaccine isn't 100% effective it's not worth taking.
The link you provided merely said that they were positive after the meeting. They might have caught it at a restaurant two days before the meeting or they might have caught it at a bar that night or they might have caught it from a loved one or a friend or somebody on the subway......

 

[Lynn]

Rich, you stated that “believe whether someone chooses to get vaccinated or not is their own private medical choice.” And so it is.

I just plain don’t understand the choice of those that choose not to get vaccinated knowing that it’s not a choice that just impacts them. I know by being vaccinated I am doing my part to prevent spreading it to others who may get very sick or die.

I felt an obligation to get vaccinated. I don’t live in a bubble nor do I want to. What I do affects others.

It effects people like my daughter and son in law, both first responders, valuable members of the community, who are both immunocompromised. They are vaccinated, but because of their health (MS and kidney transplant) they remain vulnerable. It effects my grandchildren who have to yet been vaccinated. It effects business owners who may be shut down if there is an outbreak in there place of business. It impacts countries all over the world that have not yet had access to enough vaccines. It impacts people waiting for heart surgery when hospitals are maxed out treaty covid patients. It’s not just about us.

 

[Chuck C]

It’s not just about us.

Absolutely, it is not just about us! Well said Lynn.

I care for my 78 year old mother who has dementia. She is vulnerable. While I may have a little higher risk, due to my artificial valve, she is definitely at higher risk and I could not imagine not getting vaccinated for her sake.

 

[pellicle]

The study you linked to was an abomination.

its worse than that. Today I was in a shop and people said to me there is not need to get vaccinated because you just need to take worming tablets.

I was incredulous and wondered where the hell they got that idea from ... so now I read that "The Guardian" link and see:

The preprint study on the efficacy and safety of ivermectin – a drug used against parasites such as worms and headlice – in treating Covid-19, led by Dr Ahmed Elgazzar from Benha University in Egypt, was published on the Research Square website in November. ​

for the love of Gawd. You may as well believe this:

https://english.alaraby.co.uk/news/applying-essential-oil-anus-cures-coronavirus-iranian-cleric

A local cleric from the Iranian city of Qom has suggested a novel cure for the new coronavirus - the pre-bedtime rectal administration of violet leaf oil.

Users on Twitter describe how the Ayatollah Tabrizian has publicly denounced Western medicine as "un-Islamic".​

In a post to over 120,000 followers on the social messaging service Telegram, Tabrizian, a purveyor of traditional Islam medicine, listed several alternative techniques for fighting the spread of the contagious disease, known as Covid-19.​

 

[Chuck C]

Ivermectin- is it effective in fighting Covid-19?

Answer: Has not yet been conclusively determined. It appears more data is needed.

In this video, uploaded July 14, Dr. Perry Wilson of Yale School of Medicine discusses the studies to date for Ivermectin as a treatment for Covid-19.

As he notes in the video, the evidence showing a favorable result for Ivermectin rests on two studies, neither of which have yet been peer reviewed. One of the studies is from Egypt and the other is from Iran, both of which have serious issues, which Dr. Wilson covers. Dr. Wilson uploaded this video 7 days ago on July 14. It should be noted that since then, evidence for fraud in the Egyptian study has emerged and the study has been retracted, please see link below. If these two studies are removed from the meta-analysis discussed in his video, the apparent protective effect of Ivermectin to treat Covid-19 disappears.

Dr. Perry Wilson video- 8 minutes:




Retraction of Egyptian study.

A study showing promising evidence of ivermectin for Covid-19 retracted amid ‘ethical concerns’ | Health24

Does this mean that Ivermectin will not eventually be shown to be effective? Not at all. There are several studies underway which should shed more light on its efficacy. But, as of now, there is not enough evidence. Certainly not enough evidence to bank one’s life on and forego the vaccine, which has proven highly effective at reducing Covid-19 and saving lives.

 

[cldlhd]

its worse than that. Today I was in a shop and people said to me there is not need to get vaccinated because you just need to take worming tablets.

I was incredulous and wondered where the hell they got that idea from ... so now I read that "The Guardian" link and see:

The preprint study on the efficacy and safety of ivermectin – a drug used against parasites such as worms and headlice – in treating Covid-19, led by Dr Ahmed Elgazzar from Benha University in Egypt, was published on the Research Square website in November. ​

for the love of Gawd. You may as well believe this:

https://english.alaraby.co.uk/news/applying-essential-oil-anus-cures-coronavirus-iranian-cleric

A local cleric from the Iranian city of Qom has suggested a novel cure for the new coronavirus - the pre-bedtime rectal administration of violet leaf oil.

Users on Twitter describe how the Ayatollah Tabrizian has publicly denounced Western medicine as "un-Islamic".​

In a post to over 120,000 followers on the social messaging service Telegram, Tabrizian, a purveyor of traditional Islam medicine, listed several alternative techniques for fighting the spread of the contagious disease, known as Covid-19.​

Well at least the Iranian one could be interesting.. .