Covid Vaccines

[rich01]

And these doctors you listen to, ostensibly in the trenches, are encouraging people not to get vaccinated because the vaccine causes variants? There’s a name for that: We call them quacks.

I never said any such thing.

 

[jcgtok17]

Hot topic for sure. I'm convinced C-19 would make a bee-line for my heart so I'm glad to have both Moderna shots (May 19th and July 4th). This is a blog I write for on occasion under the moniker @firehorsecaper. Tongue in cheek, but covers a lot of ground for a short snippet. There Aren’t Any Victims, Just Volunteers - Trading with The Fly

 

[Chuck C]

“Misinformation poses an imminent and insidious threat to our nation’s health,” Murthy said “

Indeed.

And

“While some groups that push health misinformation do so for profit or other motives, many Americans may be spreading false information without realizing it, according to the advisory.”

Finally

“Teachers, he said, should expand lessons on media literacy and critical thinking.”

Yes, please.

https://apnews.com/article/technolo...sinformation-50d081bad2f76f097b6de57356ef8ab0

 

[rich01]

Rich, India’s reduction in cases seems to coincide with state lock downs (not national but state lock downs- most states it appears have locked down to varying degrees) that starting in mid April and May. States are just beginning to re-open now. These lock downs to curtail the mobility and gathering of people coupled with the effort to vaccinate are what Indian Doctors and scientists are crediting with the decline in cases.

Secondly, I wonder why US deaths might be declining? Maybe vaccines have something to do with it?

What’s they saying, “don’t let the prefect be the enemy of the good”

I think if you search the literature you will find all but 1 state in India implemented a policy of treating patients with Ivermectin with a corresponding decline in the number of cases.

Science is not done by consensus, but by debate and discussion. Science is proven, not dictated. The fact that government, media, and big tech are all censoring thoughtful and serious discussion should alarm everyone. Why are people and especially the government afraid of debate?

All I want is the very best practices used to end this pandemic with the fewest people possible becoming sick and/or dying. That is done by listening to the people in the trenches who try things and know what works, when it works, and what doesn't work. Doctors all over the world are doing their best to run trials that aren't always perfect. During a pandemic is not the time to delay therapies because big pharma has expensive drugs they hope to sell in the future.

 

[vitdoc]

The right wing wingnuts don't want anything to succeed in the US while they are not in power. The anti Fauci sentiment is laughable. That goes along with not losing the presidential election to Q anon etc.. Sure, early on Fauci made some mistakes about a variety of issues but these errors were based on the information available at the time. He corrected himself and in my mind has been nearly spot on the entire time. The last great leader was very informative about pushing Hydroxychloroquine , lack of mask wearing, exposing his Secret Service to his active infection and his musings on using cleaning agents internally.

The death rate currently has gone up but since many of the currently infected are younger it is not going up as fast as the case rate. As mentioned a variety of times those who are dying are nearly all non vaccinated. A significant number of those infected will have long term issues.

Why does the government of the US want to have people vaccinated? It is a nefarious scheme to kill them? Control them? Plant things in their brains?
Maybe the government wants to have the pandemic under control so we can get back to a relatively normal existence.
The jump in cases when masks were removed and indoor activity was restarted was not a surprise. I saw very few people masked up and I am sure that many were unvaccinated. So now all of us vaccinated and unvaccinated will have to deal with masks somewhat longer due to our friendly unvaccinated neighbors.

And yes vaccines don't cause variants. Variants develop from populations of viruses that MUTATE. The more active virus the more mutations. So it is primarily in the UNVACCINATED population that the variants are occurring.

If one recalls the surge in cases in India occurred shortly after there were a number of political and religious rallies across India. When India (or parts of) reduced gatherings and shut down the case rates started to drop. I know several Indian physicians that lost relatives in India to Covid. Not just a media event.

So please everyone get vaccinated so we can get on with our lives. Stop watching Tucker Carlson or at least believing anything he says.

 

[Chuck C]

I never said any such thing.

You've been carrying on for several posts to try to support your position that the vaccines are causing the variants and that there are better alternatives than getting vaccinated.

You then said: " Fauci has out and out lied to the American people on more than one occasion and has actually admitted to it. The doctors I listen to and believe are the ones down in the trenches treating Covid-19 patients and keeping them alive, not bureaucrats who haven't seen a patient in decades. "

So, if you were not making the case that the doctors that you listen to promote the positions that you have taken above, what is it that they are saying that is contrary to what Fauci is saying? Please clarify because I don't understand why you made that comment in the context of the current discussion.

 

[cldlhd]

A Perfect vaccine means that if you are vaccinated, you will not get the disease and will not pass it on. I included a link that explained that. If the vaccine was perfect, the current world strategy would likely work.

With up to 25% of those vaccinated infecting others, they can obviously infect both those who are and are not vaccinated. To blame all the new infections on the unvaccinated is to ignore the fact that the vaccines are not perfect.

The article I linked to also explains how an imperfect vaccine can result in mutations that the vaccines are less effective on as we are seeing now with the delta variant. In other words, the variants that escape the vaccine are those the vaccine is not as effective at killing. Unless governments get their act together, we will likely see Covid-19 with us for years to come with a yearly vaccine or booster as we have with influenza.

Nonsense. Explains how " it can" . Not in reference to this virus or this vaccine. So what's more likely to get you sick being vaccinated or not?

 

[cldlhd]

For every so-called expert you quote, I can quote a different one who says the opposite.

Is it not true that we are seeing variants for which the vaccines are not as effective as they were for the first 2 or 3 strains? Is it not true that there was a collapse in new cases in India right when the media and WHO were predicting a disaster?

The government is as guilty of misinformation as any other source. They have a vaccine agenda and nothing is going to get in their way, even something as simple as vitamin d. Remember, these are authorized only for emergency use. The emergency must continue. No treatment options will be approved because if they are there is no emergency.

You're spreading anti vaxx propaganda and should be removed from the site.
So are you saying it would be better if there were no vaccines and more infected would die therefore less mutations?
You're a wack job conspiracy theorist. Your suggesting that they won't approve treatment options because then the vaccine would be unnecessary? Why would they do that? Later

 

[cldlhd]

All but 1 province in India started using Ivermectin. It correlates closely with the steep decline in cases.

Unless things have changed dramatically in the last few weeks, almost all the deaths (by percentage) in US are over 50 years of age. If current deaths are being blamed on not being vaccinated, why isn't the government targeting those over 50? Why target children under 18 who almost never die from Covid-19? I just ask these questions because it doesn't seem to me that the government's actions match their stated objective. When you do a cost-benefit analysis of vaccinating children, it says don't vaccinate unless there is a specific health reason for doing so. The risks are greater than the benefits.

Because the ones who get it and don't get very sick it for spread it to those who do

 

[rich01]

The right wing wingnuts don't want anything to succeed in the US while they are not in power. The anti Fauci sentiment is laughable. That goes along with not losing the presidential election to Q anon etc.. Sure, early on Fauci made some mistakes about a variety of issues but these errors were based on the information available at the time. He corrected himself and in my mind has been nearly spot on the entire time. The last great leader was very informative about pushing Hydroxychloroquine , lack of mask wearing, exposing his Secret Service to his active infection and his musings on using cleaning agents internally.

The death rate currently has gone up but since many of the currently infected are younger it is not going up as fast as the case rate. As mentioned a variety of times those who are dying are nearly all non vaccinated. A significant number of those infected will have long term issues.

Why does the government of the US want to have people vaccinated? It is a nefarious scheme to kill them? Control them? Plant things in their brains?
Maybe the government wants to have the pandemic under control so we can get back to a relatively normal existence.
The jump in cases when masks were removed and indoor activity was restarted was not a surprise. I saw very few people masked up and I am sure that many were unvaccinated. So now all of us vaccinated and unvaccinated will have to deal with masks somewhat longer due to our friendly unvaccinated neighbors.

And yes vaccines don't cause variants. Variants develop from populations of viruses that MUTATE. The more active virus the more mutations. So it is primarily in the UNVACCINATED population that the variants are occurring.

If one recalls the surge in cases in India occurred shortly after there were a number of political and religious rallies across India. When India (or parts of) reduced gatherings and shut down the case rates started to drop. I know several Indian physicians that lost relatives in India to Covid. Not just a media event.

So please everyone get vaccinated so we can get on with our lives. Stop watching Tucker Carlson or at least believing anything he says.

Please tell me you are not really a doc.

 

[rich01]

You've been carrying on for several posts to try to support your position that the vaccines are causing the variants and that there are better alternatives than getting vaccinated.

You then said: " Fauci has out and out lied to the American people on more than one occasion and has actually admitted to it. The doctors I listen to and believe are the ones down in the trenches treating Covid-19 patients and keeping them alive, not bureaucrats who haven't seen a patient in decades. "

So, if you were not making the case that the doctors that you listen to promote the positions that you have taken above, what is it that they are saying that is contrary to what Fauci is saying? Please clarify because I don't understand why you made that comment in the context of the current discussion.

Fauci lied when he said we shouldn't wear masks. His reasoning was we were short on PPE, so he would lie to the American people. 7/15/20

Herd immunity was accepted to be 70-75%. When polls showed only about 60% were willing to get vaccinated, Fauci suddenly claimed herd immunity was 80-85% to try to trick people into getting vaccinated. 12/21/20

There are several more Fauci lies, but you get the point.

You understand my points exactly. You just disagree with them and I'm fine with that. I have no need to prove myself right or to prove you wrong.

 

[rich01]

Nonsense. Explains how " it can" . Not in reference to this virus or this vaccine. So what's more likely to get you sick being vaccinated or not?

Being old and having comorbidities. If you are under 50, your chance of dying from Covid-19 is tiny whether you are vaccinated or not.

 

[rich01]

You're spreading anti vaxx propaganda and should be removed from the site.
So are you saying it would be better if there were no vaccines and more infected would die therefore less mutations?
You're a wack job conspiracy theorist. Your suggesting that they won't approve treatment options because then the vaccine would be unnecessary? Why would they do that? Later

Why make things up? I'm sure I must have written something you could actually quote.

I am saying that the current vaccines will most likely not get rid of Covid-19, that it will be with us for years like influenza is. We will likely have to get a yearly vaccine for the new variants. That the government policy for outpatient treatment is non-existent. That the government has no policy or plan for dealing with people who cannot be vaccinated for medical or religious reasons. The only thing they are offering is a vaccine that does not prevent infection and never claimed to.

I am also saying that I do not know of a single doctor who has used Ivermectin to treat patients who has reported it to be ineffective. There may be some, but if there are they are a very tiny minority. Why is any discussion of Ivermectin or HCQ censored when both have proven to be effective treatments when given early?

July 24th is World Ivermectin Day

On July 24, 2021, people of the world will come together to celebrate ivermectin for a day focused on unity, love, and gratitude for this precious gift from Mother Earth. Ivermectin is the key and has already brought immeasurable benefit to humanity. It’s time to celebrate and let the world know that it’s going to be ok!​

 

[rich01]

Because the ones who get it and don't get very sick it for spread it to those who do

But you are vaccinated. You are protected. You might get Covid-19, but it is unlikely you will become critically ill or die. And if you do catch the virus, you are probably just as likely to catch it from someone who was vaccinated as someone who wasn't.

 

[dick0236]

I think General George Patton.....for you younguns or others who don't remember WW2, General Patton was one of the USA heroes of that war.....reportedly was quoted saying "GOD, how I love war". That reminds me of where this thread is heading. A similar thread, several years back, created animosity that destroyed the original forum......and this one is headed down that road. I was in the middle of that fight because, like Patton, I love to fight......but it resolved nothing......that said, if you want to keep going LETS HAVE AT IT

 

[Lynn]

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/e...t-covid-19-outside-randomised-clinical-trials
https://www.albertahealthservices.c...-in-treatment-and-prevention-rapid-review.pdf
https://www.indiatoday.in/coronavir...cycline-in-covid-treatment-1811809-2021-06-07

 

[cldlhd]

But you are vaccinated. You are protected. You might get Covid-19, but it is unlikely you will become critically ill or die. And if you do catch the virus, you are probably just as likely to catch it from someone who was vaccinated as someone who wasn't.

Not true. Give evidence

 

[cldlhd]

Why make things up? I'm sure I must have written something you could actually quote.

I am saying that the current vaccines will most likely not get rid of Covid-19, that it will be with us for years like influenza is. We will likely have to get a yearly vaccine for the new variants. That the government policy for outpatient treatment is non-existent. That the government has no policy or plan for dealing with people who cannot be vaccinated for medical or religious reasons. The only thing they are offering is a vaccine that does not prevent infection and never claimed to.

I am also saying that I do not know of a single doctor who has used Ivermectin to treat patients who has reported it to be ineffective. There may be some, but if there are they are a very tiny minority. Why is any discussion of Ivermectin or HCQ censored when both have proven to be effective treatments when given early?

July 24th is World Ivermectin Day

On July 24, 2021, people of the world will come together to celebrate ivermectin for a day focused on unity, love, and gratitude for this precious gift from Mother Earth. Ivermectin is the key and has already brought immeasurable benefit to humanity. It’s time to celebrate and let the world know that it’s going to be ok!​

Yes it'll likely be with us because of people like you

 

[cldlhd]

Why make things up? I'm sure I must have written something you could actually quote.

I am saying that the current vaccines will most likely not get rid of Covid-19, that it will be with us for years like influenza is. We will likely have to get a yearly vaccine for the new variants. That the government policy for outpatient treatment is non-existent. That the government has no policy or plan for dealing with people who cannot be vaccinated for medical or religious reasons. The only thing they are offering is a vaccine that does not prevent infection and never claimed to.

I am also saying that I do not know of a single doctor who has used Ivermectin to treat patients who has reported it to be ineffective. There may be some, but if there are they are a very tiny minority. Why is any discussion of Ivermectin or HCQ censored when both have proven to be effective treatments when given early?

July 24th is World Ivermectin Day

On July 24, 2021, people of the world will come together to celebrate ivermectin for a day focused on unity, love, and gratitude for this precious gift from Mother Earth. Ivermectin is the key and has already brought immeasurable benefit to humanity. It’s time to celebrate and let the world know that it’s going to be ok!​

It's not that they "cannot" get vaccinated for religious reasons it's that they will not

 

[Chuck C]

And if you do catch the virus, you are probably just as likely to catch it from someone who was vaccinated as someone who wasn't.

Well, you're going to say that the experts don't really know, or they are purposefully lying to us, part of some insidious scheme, but here you go:

" vaccinated people who have contracted the coronavirus have much lower viral loads than unvaccinated people. "

" experts say that while not impossible, COVID-19 transmission by fully vaccinated people is unlikely. "

“The more virus you have, the better chance you have of spreading it,” Patterson told Healthline. “From what we know of wild COVID (the non-variant form of the novel coronavirus), people who are vaccinated are not carrying very much viral load, so the probability of them being infectious is very low.”

https://www.healthline.com/health-n...owingly-spreading-covid-19#Assessing-the-risk
And, that is on top of the fact that the vaccine is 90%+ effective, and there are relatively few breakthrough cases, even with the variants. So, no, not just as likely to get the virus from someone who is vaccinated as someone who is unvaccinated. That is conspiracy BS.