Covid Vaccines

[pellicle]

There was no smug putdown. Several members made it clear I was wrong and they were right.

well it sure looked like it ... was I one of those members?

Lastly why do you think that some of the best minds in immunology and virology have a view which you dismiss and what is it you know that they don't? Can you at least lay down your qualifications since you are going against the mainstream in science?

 

[pellicle]

We each have our sources. I trust mine. I don't think there is anything left to discuss.

this is not science, this is an expression of faith.

It is not ONLY about the trust you have in the source, its about the veracity of their claims and the ability of others to repeat findings in the claims.

THAT is science.

One person saying "I found this" is not proof, its cause for further examination.

 

[cldlhd]

We each have our sources. I trust mine. I don't think there is anything left to discuss.

Bahahaha

 

[cldlhd]

I never said I was against vaccination. I said if I had it to do over, I probably would not get vaccinated. I believe by taking Ivermectin, I am better protected against Covid-19 than I would be by any of the vaccines and with no side effects.

Which side effects did you get from the vaccines?

 

[cldlhd]

There was no smug putdown. Several members made it clear I was wrong and they were right. I was addressing those members who made it clear they were not open to any meaningful discussion.

But you're doing the exact same thing

 

[Chuck C]

We each have our sources. I trust mine. I don't think there is anything left to discuss.

I do hope that the ivermectin that you are taking is not the the dosage meant for 1,500 pound horses. There has been a run on ivermectin at equestrian supply stores because many are doing this. I live in a neighborhood zoned for horses and many are unable to get ivermectin for their horses due to this.

 

[rich01]

ok ... to me they are the same ...


ok ... so what do you based that on (using the same criteria I laid out above).

Why should I have to use your criteria? There are multiple ways to evaluate information and the source of information. I am comfortable that I have done the best I can to find reliable sources backed up by scientific studies and by the professional credentials of those presenting the information.

 

[Michael O]

See, the thing is that we've been through this before. I was not front line, but worked as a maintenance guy in a NYC hospice for AIDS victims in the late 90s. The gay community had what were called bugchasers - non-HIV positive people who actively courted risky activity in the deliberate attempt to catch HIV. There wasn't a lot of good data on the group, and in general, mainstream media and opinion viewed them as insane or pathetic or both. There's a fair amount of debate about how common the practice was, and how much was simply posturing, but there's no question that it was a real issue for public health policymakers and LGTB+ advocates at the time.

More information has been gathered on this group since then, and broadly speaking, a lot of interview data indicates that the impetus for this nihilistic behavior was complex. Some significant piece was that chasing the virus was an expression of gayness. It became **who they were**, as opposed to just a choice about what, to outsiders, was a simple and obvious medical decision.

I see a lot of similarities in current vaccine resistance. For as furious and disgusted as I am about the resistors, it's a profoundly sad thing to have to live through this kind of thing a second time.

 

[rich01]

But you're doing the exact same thing

I don't believe so. I was more than willing to discuss, debate, trade sources, etc, but quickly found out no one else was. Everything I said was wrong and it didn't matter what sources I provided or what studies I quoted. Eventually, I'm afraid, a few people got to me and I started giving back what I was getting. A couple of times people asked for a source, only to ridicule it when I presented it. There was no attempt at civil discussion by several people here. I don't think you will find a single time I called someone a name or was abusive. The worst I did was suggest someone look up the definition of perfect and imperfect vaccines, as I had already provided it.

As I said more than once, I have no dog in this fight. I don't care if someone gets vaccinated or not. I believe every adult should be able to make their own best decision. What I have been trying to do is share what I think is important information. Ivermectin, and to a lesser degree HCQ, are currently being used with success to treat Covid-19 in many parts of the world. Several poorer countries that were late getting vaccines have used Ivermectin extensively. Ivermectin has also been proven to work prophylactically.

I think it may have been on a podcast where Dr. Kory and Dr. Marik were on with Dr. Bean (Dr. Mobeen Syed) where they went through exactly how Ivermectin works against Covid-19. And I mean they were inside the cell explaining exactly what it did and how it did it. Recently Dr. Kory was on with Dr. Been and Dr. Marik called Dr. Kory, not knowing he was live with Dr. Bean. They put him on the air and the 3 of them discussed the report Dr. Marik had called about. These guys are sharp. I certainly don't understand everything they discuss, but I get a general idea.

The FLCC, with support from other experts, has developed these Covid-19 protocols:

• I-MASS Protocol - for generalized distribution during mass outbreaks and in low-resource countries
• I-MASK+ Prevention & Early Outpatient Treatment Protocol for COVID-19
• MATH+ Hospital Treatment Protocol for COVID-19
• I-RECOVER Management Protocol for Long Haul COVID-19 Syndrome (LHCS)

They are not making a penny from this, in fact, Dr. Kory is likely losing a great deal of money. When things were hot in NYC, he left his job and went back to NYC to help. Plus they are putting their professional careers and reputations on the line. These doctors are acting like a supercomputer by combining their brainpower and experience to try to stop Covid-19. They pioneered the use of corticosteroids in the treatment of Covid-19. They pioneered the use of intravenous vitamin c in treating Covid-19. They expect it won't be long before ivermectin will also be recognized as a standard treatment for Covid-19.

These are the core members who make up the FLCCC.

• Paul E. Marik – MD, FCCM, FCCP
  Endowed Professor of Medicine
  Chief, Div. of Pulmonary & Critical Care Medicine
  Eastern Virginia Medical School, Norfolk, VA
• Pierre Kory – MD, MPA
  Pulmonary and Critical Care Specialist
  President, Frontline COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance (FLCCC Alliance)
• G. Umberto Meduri – MD
  Professor of Medicine, University of Tennessee Health Science Center
  Pulmonary, Critical Care & Sleep Medicine and Research Services
  Memphis V.A. Medical Center
• Joseph Varon – MD, FCCP, FCCM
  Chief of Staff & Chief of Critical Care
  United Memorial Medical Center, Houston, TX
• Jose Iglesias – DO
  Assoc. Prof., Hackensack Meridian School of Medicine at Seton Hall
  Dept. of Nephrology & Critical Care, Community Medical Center
  Dept. of Nephrology, Jersey Shore University Medical Center; Neptune, NJ
• Keith Berkowitz – MD, MBA
  Medical Director, Center for Balanced Health
  Voluntary Attending Physician, Lenox Hill Hosp. New York, NY
• Howard Kornfeld – MD
  Board Certified: Emergency Med., Pain Med., Addiction Med.
  President, Pharmacology Policy Institute, Clinical Faculty
  Pain Fellowship Program, Univ. of California, San Francisco (UCSF) School of Medicine
  Founder & Medical Director, Recovery Without Walls; Mill Valley, California
• Fred Wagshul – MD
  Pulmonologist & Med. Dir., Lung Center of America
  Clinical Instructor, Wright State University School of Medicine, Dayton, Ohio
• Scott Mitchell – MRCS
  Associate Specialist, Emergency Department
  Princess Elizabeth Hospital, States of Guernsey
• Eivind H. Vinjevoll – MD
  Senior Consultant Anesthesiologist
  Intensive Care, Emergency Medicine, Anesthesia; Volda, Norway

 

[Chuck C]

What I find so sad is to observe people who have had every opportunity to be vaccinated, but refuse based on misinformation, on their deathbeds or, more often, for them to deal with their parents on their deathbed. With 99.2 % of the deaths from Covid-19 occurring among the unvaccinated, we can confidently say this is unnecessary suffering.
Everyone seems to have their own “experts” whom they follow, without the slightest bit of training in how to evaluate who really is an expert

 

[pellicle]

There are multiple ways to evaluate information and the source of information.

yes, you can evaluate them scientifically with veracity or you can evaluate them emotionally.

One is the basis of everything in the world that works.

 

[pellicle]

. I was more than willing to discuss, debate, trade sources, etc, but quickly found out no one else was.

I see ... when I asked for discussion I got a closed door.

As I said more than once, I have no dog in this fight. I don't care if someone gets vaccinated or not

however you do have a dog in this fight, you are putting your weight behind something which is not shown to work.

These are the core members who make up the FLCCC.

I'm a bit lost, are these people involved with the science behind Ivermectin ?

 

[pellicle]

@rich01
I drilled down to examine one "study"

https://c19ivermectin.com/chowdhury.html
it is not something which would pass a proper review

Study cited: Chowdhury et al., 7/14/2020, Randomized Controlled Trial, Bangladesh

Not published in a journal and little to no information on methods. No information on the peers chosen (could just be mates) so since its not published by a recognised journal you have to simply take it as anecdotal. No information on the ages of the people in the study ... its just a mess. The authors have no previous history in research in this area and the study is only found on that web site.

It is the sort of stuff someone who is not critical of what it says but wants validation of their position would produce.

Its something which may impress a non academic person.

 

[pellicle]

Oops
https://ebm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/05/26/bmjebm-2021-111678

 

[Chuck C]

There appears to be documented interaction between ivermectin and warfarin. Proceed with caution.

A Case of Ivermectin-Induced Warfarin Toxicity: First Published Report

“Examples of drugs that can cause interactions with ivermectin are listed below.

Warfarin

Warfarin is a drug used to thin your blood. Taking warfarin with ivermectin can thin your blood too much and cause dangerous bleeding.”

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/ivermectin-oral-tablet#interactions

 

[pellicle]

for those interested and not 'locked into their way of thinking'
(the title is a link)

The effect of early treatment with ivermectin on viral load, symptoms and humoral response in patients with non-severe COVID-19: A pilot, double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized clinical trial

Findings
All patients recruited completed the trial (median age, 26 [IQR 19–36 in the ivermectin and 21–44 in the controls] years; 12 [50%] women; 100% had symptoms at recruitment, 70% reported headache, 62% reported fever, 50% reported general malaise and 25% reported cough). At day 7, there was no difference in the proportion of PCR positive patients (RR 0·92, 95% CI: 0·77–1·09, p = 1·0). The ivermectin group had non-statistically significant lower viral loads at day 4 (p = 0·24 for gene E; p = 0·18 for gene N) and day 7 (p = 0·16 for gene E; p = 0·18 for gene N) post treatment as well as lower IgG titers at day 21 post treatment (p = 0·24). Patients in the ivermectin group recovered earlier from hyposmia/anosmia (76 vs 158 patient-days; p < 0.001).

the only things worthy of mention I underlined.

In the fields of Science its entirely appropriate to ask questions (which of course leads to directions for "further research"; so

• it appears there was only 24 people of which only 12 were given invermectin (small sample)
• what difference did ages of 19 - 36 VS 21-44 make to the outcomes
• how important is the recovery time of loss of smell (anosmia) in this (and what about other aspects?)

 

[rich01]

well it sure looked like it ... was I one of those members?

Lastly why do you think that some of the best minds in immunology and virology have a view which you dismiss and what is it you know that they don't? Can you at least lay down your qualifications since you are going against the mainstream in science?

I didn't realize if something was mainstream that meant it was true and could not be challenged. I didn't know that was how science worked.

Maybe you would like to examine the clinical trials behind remdesivir and examine how successful the drug actually is. Compare the scientific justification for remdesivir as compared to Ivermectin.

Ivermectin for Prevention and Treatment of COVID-19 Infection: A Systematic Review, Meta-analysis, and Trial Sequential Analysis to Inform Clinical Guidelines
Bryant, Andrew MSc1,*; Lawrie, Theresa A. MBBCh, PhD2; Dowswell, Therese PhD2; Fordham, Edmund J. PhD2; Mitchell, Scott MBChB, MRCS3; Hill, Sarah R. PhD1; Tham, Tony C. MD, FRCP4

https://journals.lww.com/americanth...mectin_for_Prevention_and_Treatment_of.7.aspx
I believe Dr. Lawrie has said the meta-analysis included the Egyptian study, and that removal of that study did not change the results.

The British Ivermectin Recommendation Development Group (BIRD) is a truly grassroots initiative bringing together clinicians, health researchers and patient representatives from all around the world to advocate for the use of ivermectin against covid-19.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of doctors associated with FLCCC, BIRD, and other associations around the world that support the use of Ivermectin for treating Covid-19. These are primarily doctors who are treating Covid-19 patients and have first-hand knowledge of Ivermectin working. I believe the people in the trenches over desk jockies, especially when Lawrie et al meta-analysis is included.

 

[cldlhd]

Maybe there's something wrong with me but I'm enjoying this back and forth a bit. Maybe it's part of that normal human feeling of enjoying people that you generally like agreeing with you? However I have a feeling there won't be a resolution. I also think there's a thing going on, maybe it is a name for it, where people like to believe that 98% of the general public is being fooled but they're one of the small percentage who know the real deal. I guess there's something satisfactory about that feeling.

 

[rich01]

Maybe there's something wrong with me but I'm enjoying this back and forth a bit. Maybe it's part of that normal human feeling of enjoying people that you generally like agreeing with you? However I have a feeling there won't be a resolution. I also think there's a thing going on, maybe it is a name for it, where people like to believe that 98% of the general public is being fooled but they're one of the small percentage who know the real deal. I guess there's something satisfactory about that feeling.

I think it is closer to 30% to 20% with the other 50% not paying attention. I looked at who is not vaccinated and who should be targeted. it turned out to be a black, male republican without a college degree. Once we get that .05% of the population, we are golden!

This has been made political when it is not. There is an election coming up and this plays to both sides.

The biggest problem still is the high-risk minorities who have not been vaccinated, but you don't read much about that.

 

[cldlhd]

I think it is closer to 30% to 20% with the other 50% not paying attention. I looked at who is not vaccinated and who should be targeted. it turned out to be a black, male republican without a college degree. Once we get that .05% of the population, we are golden!

This has been made political when it is not. There is an election coming up and this plays to both sides.

The biggest problem still is the high-risk minorities who have not been vaccinated, but you don't read much about that.

I don't know I live in the suburbs of Philadelphia and there has been a lot on the news here about high minority population neighborhoods, although if you want to be specific they would be the majority in those neighborhoods but I digress, and how vaccine uptake has been lower than they would like. So at least I'm hearing about it. I think there's not much point in the conversation at this point, I'm just looking at the numbers and what percentage of people in the hospital are vaccinated and that information combined with advice from experts I trust that for me getting me and my family vaccinated was the right call