Warfarin, Vit. K, Healthy Bones and Arteries

[Janet]

Of course, you can check with your doctor or a pharmacist -- or, perhaps, a nutritionist. From what I understand, though, our bodies NEED Vitamin(s) K - and eliminating or avoiding them in order to get control of our INRs is NOT the right way to go.

I totally agree! I eat my greens and get my supply of K1 that way, I imagine. The research seems to be saying that I may need more of K2 than I get from food. Older people don't absorb their nutrients that well from food. I am an older person.

 

[Protimenow]

Older than what?

I think we're all a bit older than our kids (?).

 

[Lynlw]

I totally agree! I eat my greens and get my supply of K1 that way, I imagine. The research seems to be saying that I may need more of K2 than I get from food. Older people don't absorb their nutrients that well from food. I am an older person.

I'm mostly done with this thread. but wanted to suggest if you are really concerned about if you are getting the benefits of vit K2 You could ask about getting tested for The concentration of the circulating biochemical markers matrix-Gla protein and osteocalcin in their active form (carboxylated form) and their inactive form (undercarboxylated form). to see if a "normal" amount is being carboxylated which is the step that depends on Vitamin K K2. At least you could probably find out if this is something you should be concerned about or is being effected.

I dont know if these are tests most labs do. but if you are really interested, you could check out the various trials going or or just completed at the gov site with Vitamen K, bones, calcification, Coumadin ect , even if you didn't qualify for any, its a good place to see what they are working on and what tests can be done etc. plus they all have names and contact info for the doctors running them..they might be able to point you in the right direction at least. I know Walter Reed has been doing some work Coumadin and calcification for example

heres the link to the gov site http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?term=coumadin when I did a search for just coumadin, not vit K

 

[Protimenow]

I don't know if most of us get enough Vitamin K1 or K2 (or other forms?) in our diets. I suspect that, even if we take MORE than we actually need (and get the positive effects of these Vitamin Ks), and adjust our warfarin to maintain an INR that's in range, this may be the healthiest way to go. As long as we're fairly consistent with our K intake (and this could be anywhere from lots of greens, to drinking Ensure or one of the other drinks that are high in K, to supplements that happen to contain Vitamin K), we should be able to adjust our Warfarin doses to keep ourselves in range, while taking advantage of the other benefits provided by Vitamin K.

 

[Lynlw]

I don't know if most of us get enough Vitamin K1 or K2 (or other forms?) in our diets. I suspect that, even if we take MORE than we actually need (and get the positive effects of these Vitamin Ks), and adjust our warfarin to maintain an INR that's in range, this may be the healthiest way to go. As long as we're fairly consistent with our K intake (and this could be anywhere from lots of greens, to drinking Ensure or one of the other drinks that are high in K, to supplements that happen to contain Vitamin K), we should be able to adjust our Warfarin doses to keep ourselves in range, while taking advantage of the other benefits provided by Vitamin K.

Is this just what you think or know for fact? That you will get the benefits of vitmain K even tho Coumadin inhibits it from doing it's jobs? Because earlier you said it only works on the anticoagulant and not the other important things that depend on vitamin K

 

[Janet]

Older than what?

I think we're all a bit older than our kids (?).

Older than seventy.

 

[Janet]

I'm mostly done with this thread. but wanted to suggest if you are really concerned about if you are getting the benefits of vit K2 You could ask about getting tested for The concentration of the circulating biochemical markers matrix-Gla protein and osteocalcin in their active form (carboxylated form) and their inactive form (undercarboxylated form). to see if a "normal" amount is being carboxylated which is the step that depends on Vitamin K K2. At least you could probably find out if this is something you should be concerned about or is being effected.

I dont know if these are tests most labs do. but if you are really interested, you could check out the various trials going or or just completed at the gov site with Vitamen K, bones, calcification, Coumadin ect , even if you didn't qualify for any, its a good place to see what they are working on and what tests can be done etc. plus they all have names and contact info for the doctors running them..they might be able to point you in the right direction at least. I know Walter Reed has been doing some work Coumadin and calcification for example

heres the link to the gov site http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?term=coumadin when I did a search for just coumadin, not vit K

Excellent suggestions. Thank you so much for these, Lyn!

 

[Janet]

I don't know if most of us get enough Vitamin K1 or K2 (or other forms?) in our diets. I suspect that, even if we take MORE than we actually need (and get the positive effects of these Vitamin Ks), and adjust our warfarin to maintain an INR that's in range, this may be the healthiest way to go. As long as we're fairly consistent with our K intake (and this could be anywhere from lots of greens, to drinking Ensure or one of the other drinks that are high in K, to supplements that happen to contain Vitamin K), we should be able to adjust our Warfarin doses to keep ourselves in range, while taking advantage of the other benefits provided by Vitamin K.

. . . the vitamin K we get from greens and supplements is K1, I think. From what I've read, it's K2 that we need to prevent vascular calcification and to build bones. Whether or not we can get enough or any at all (from food or supplements) while on coumadin is what we need to know. And also, whether current dietary recommendations are enough to do the job I'm after. Will keep checking for further research.

 

[Lynlw]

. . . the vitamin K we get from greens and supplements is K1, I think. From what I've read, it's K2 that we need to prevent vascular calcification and to build bones. Whether or not we can get enough or any at all (from food or supplements) while on coumadin is what we need to know. And also, whether current dietary recommendations are enough to do the job I'm after. Will keep checking for further research.

I think part of what makes it even more confusing, or hard to figure out , is most people are NOT deficieant in Vitamin K, they get most of the K from diet, but most of the K2 is made by bacteria in the intestines. The problem is I believe (but not saying it is a fact) alot of the vitain K2 that the bacteria make is by converting K1 into K2. So how does the action of Coumadin effect that or even can K1 that coumadin inhibits or blocks be made into k2 and then of course coumadin also inhibits the K2 anyways.

BTW the reason most babies (in the uS at least) are given vitamin K shortly after birth is because they dont have the bacteria in their intestines yet needed to make Vitamin K. So before the shots some babies either bleed to death or had bad brain bleeds.

Then to make it even more confusing, one of the best sources of vit k2 is a japanese food natto that is slimy and disgusting so most people wont eat. but there also is an substance in natto nattokinase, that breaks up clots..I dont know how much of the enzyme is in 1 serving of natto or what effectt it has on the overall help to vitamin K eating the slime is for.

 

[sarahsunshine]

I did a huge mount of research on this a couple years ago and came to the conclusion:
a) no doctors or cardiologists (or the INR clinic that we work with) that I spoke to knew enough about the K2 research to be able to have a conversatio with. They looked at me like I was nuts.
b) that no doctor or cardiologist that I spoke to was willing to advocate for giving K2. Even two naturopathic doctors that I spoke to said "I wouldn't go there"
c) my interpretation of the research at the time was that the food natto was good at reversing the effects of calcification of the arteries, in a relatively short period
d) that the half life of vit K2 was 3x that of K1. K1 (if I remember correctly) stays in your body about 24 hours, whereas K2 was more like 72 hours. Hence, you need 1/3 as much K2 as K1 for the same dose of warfarin.
d) my interpretation of the research was that basically Warfarin would go up, as K2 increased. That this would make K2 virtually ineffective. Furthermore, that K2 was really expensive. The outcome: Lots of very expensive urine (increase in warfarin and K2 costs).

Now, I do know more research has happened since then, and I hope to be wrong.

My thoughts from this research were that - if there is indeed a quick reversal, that if it was possible to take a short "break" from warfarin, that therapy using K2 could be very effective. My thinking then was that if you could be on heparin for a week or so, that it may be possible for people to change and realize the benefits of K2 in reversing arterial calcification (particularly for kids who grow up taking the stuff from 9 days of age, like my step son).

On the other hand, now that Pradaxa is available, perhaps that solves the arterial calcification and vitamin K issues related to warfarin? Who knows, however, what long term problems it brings.