Use of Naturopathic & Homoeopathic Remedies

[epstns]

Don't get me wrong. . .

Don't get me wrong. . .

I did read Al's (very informative, thank you) post, and fully concur. I was just mentioning the info, probably the same anecdotal info Bill's surgeon brought up, as a contrast to the type of conservative yet leading edge care we get in the US. If I end up with a mechanical (and at the present, that would be my choice, I think) I will definitely follow all of the instructions to the letter. I have no intention of betting my life on an unproven theory.

Just brainstorming -- maybe they will be able to develop less burdensome stuff for those with artificial aortic valves sooner than for the other lower velocity applications.

SteveE

 

[terry40]

My doctors didn't give me a choice...

My doctors didn't give me a choice...

and no aspirin, tylenol, advil, or any pain reliever or anti-inflamatory.

Just trying to sabilize the coumadin dose/PT INR has been a journey. I've only been in therapeutic range for 2 weeks since 10/24/03.

I am helping the matter by drinking a cup of green tea everyday, 1/2 cup of red grape juice and a low dose of vitamin E, they all tend to thin the blood in the natural way.

I've included greens now, but one serving everyday, I've always been a veggy eater, I'm taking a senior multi vitamin which has a very low dose of Vitamin K, which I hoping the Vitamin E will conteract, but AZPAM, I had no idea flaxseed/compatable with omega 3 fish oils, should not be taken with coumadin/warfarin, I was going to start taking that again, like I was pre-surgery, just to help keep those arteries clear.

Thanks for the info, just keep it coming,

Terry40

 

[Nancy]

Hi Terry-

I think green tea has a lot of Vitamin K in it. It doesn't thin the blood, just the opposite.

 

[Guest]

Green tea is a good source of vitamin K -- you will need more warfarin because of it. You get a real whop of vit K if you eat the leaves after drinking the tea. Some Asian cultures do that.

What was the part about the flaxseed or fish oil and warfarin? I've never heard of that one before.

If you have been in range only two weeks since October, something is amiss. Either you are not being consistent or the person making your warfarin dosage changes doesn't understand how warfarin works. Maybe both.

 

[azpam]

Hi Terry40. yes green tea decreases clotting tendency in the blood. learned about the flaxseed/coumadin idea from a naturopathic doctor. they tend to be very knowledgable about natural things so tend to believe her on this. Prescription for Nutritional Healing book says of flaxseed:lowers blood cholesterol/triglycerides, and helps reduce the hardening effects of cholesterol on cell membranes. so with that concept, maybe it reams out arteries good and therefore coumadin metabolises faster. not as much junk in the arteries so platelet don't stick?? just thinking of the theory behind it. but she did say flaxseed/coumadin interact. maybe can be combined but watch INR's for potential change in coumadin dose?

 

[MarkU]

Whoa! Think that we're heading for a train wreck here! From what I've read, (and I think Allodwick confirms) green tea INCREASES the clotting of tendency of the blood, not the opposite! The high vitamin K content of the tea is working AGAINST the Coumadin/Warfarin. Therefore as Al says, you will need a higher dose of Warfarin to counteract it to stay in range.

Mark

 

[Blanche]

Please seek your doctor's advice

Please seek your doctor's advice

Terry:
First, and most important, if your INR has been in range for only two weeks out of the last 10 weeks or so, you are having a problem and most likely need an adjustment in your Coumadin/Warfarin dose. You need to contact your cardiologist and the person who regulates your medication. Please listen to Lodwick, as he is an expert on anticoagulation and runs an anticoagulation clinic that does thousands of protime tests. You need to be proactive and get on this at once.

Terry, I say this with care and concern in my heart for you. This is not the time for you to be experimenting with trying to balance your INR with supplements, herbs, and foods that either have a blood thinning effect or have Vitamin K. Right now, you MUST get in range and become stable. Later, if you want to add supplements, herbs, and the like you can do it with the help of your anticoagulation people and AFTER you have done some solid research and have a through understanding of the interactions. I seem to remember that you are a nurse. With your training, you should be able to develop a deep understanding of the issues so that you don't make serious errors and....., well, you know.

For now, at least, you should avoid green tea. It has vitamin K. Coumadin or Warfarin, the anticoagulant you take, is a Vitamin K antagonist. Coumadin inhibits the action of Vitamin K. Flaxseed Oil and Omega 3 oils do just the opposite. They potentiate the effects of Coumadin. You could think of it this way. Vitamin K is a blood thickener and flaxseed oil and Omega 3 oils are blood thinners. (This may not be the correct terminology, but it makes it easier to visualize.) The problem is that you don't know how much of either one you should use..... Either way, Vitamin K, which is contained in green tea does NOT decrease the clotting tendency of the blood. Vitamin K can decrease the clotting time of your blood, thus lowering (decreasing) your INR. And, an INR that is too low can cause serious problems including blood clots.

Whn you've sorted this out with your doctor and you are stable on your anticoagulants, I would be glad to suggest some sites on the net that might be of assistance to you. These would be sites that reliable and respected. There's a whole lot of JUNK and misinformation out there. Don't trust anyone, any site, or even me without reliable written back-up from a recognized authority.
Question everyone. I will back-up just a bit and say, you can bank on Al Lodwick, for he is a recognized, national expert. And, the written information is on www.warfarinfo.com (There is a section on green tea there too.)

Please let us know what you're up to. There are a lot of us here who are concerned about you.

 

[Granbonny]

AMEN. Blanche

AMEN. Blanche

Anyone who is JUST 3 months post-surgery should be worrying more about their walking, breathing, clearing their minds..getting back to a normal family life...Why be concerned with what vitamins or herbs should you be taking...You just had Major surgery...Heal first (by the way..count on at least 6 months)..Get your 6 month echo and then you can think about the other parts of your body. Bonnie

 

[Guest]

Platelets and warfarin are two different parts of the clotting mechanism. They have very little to do with each other. Stickiness of platelets is affected by aspirin and Plavix but certainly not warfarin. Warfarin works on the thrombin portion of the clotting mechanism.

When you take flaxseed with water it swells to a tremendous surface area. If you took the warfarin at the same time as this combination, the warfarin might get bound up on the surface of the flaxseed and be transported through the bowel without getting absorbed into the bloodstream. But if you do not take them at the same time, there should be no problem. Since flaxseed is not absorbed it should have no effect in the body.

The gastrointestinal tract is really just a tube that passes through your body. As long as something stays in the tube it can do little but cause constipation, diarrhea, or irritation.

Other medications that are binding agents can do the same thing.

 

[azpam]

Terry40. I agree with the others that you need to concentrate on getting stability on your INR before you mess around with other "things" in your life. then whatever you decide, start SLOW and with 1 product at a time. As for the green tea difference of opinion, i again was quoting the book Prescription for Nutritional Healing. page 44 that it decreased clotting tendency. there are many things this forum has discussed that one person will take a particular product and their INR goes up and then another will take the product and their INR goes down???? go figure!! While i would again agree Terry needs to not do anything till stabilzation, when ready he should start slow and see how he reacts. I would because of allodwick's experience tend to believe him over the book as he has more hands on experience with coumadin and patients knowing how "most" react to it. Enjoyed Blanches theory on flaxseed oil. Thanks for the input!!

 

[terry40]

Not to worry...

Not to worry...

I went to al's site, warfarinfo.com, saw the green tea info and it's is now history as far as I'm concern, I wasn't very fond of it anyway, just to let you all know in the coumadin book they sent me home with it was listed as a LOW source of vitamin K.

Believe me I have been concerned with therapeutic leveling of my INR, it's been the pass, now 3 weeks, that it has been stable, the pass 3 weeks I've also added green veggies to my diet, started taking a multi vitamin (and I did read about the best choice, I just have to watch the iron content in my multi, I need 0 amount) and drinking greentea, figure that, maybe now I'll be able to lower my dose now

Thanks for all the info and concern,

Terry40

 

[joy]

Hey guys, as I said in a different thread in small talk, I do not believe in homeopathic remedies. Green tea is a high source of vitamin K, the greener the vegetable, the more vitamin K it has in it. avoid it if you are on coumadin. I am quoting my coumadin nurse here. Not a book that is trying to sell natural stuff, but a nurse who is an expert at this. My cardio actually calls me and talks to me at length about my concerns. I remember one time, my husband got a cold, and he went to his house because his mom had this crap that was supposed to be a "miracle thing" and get rid of his cold, and it didn't work! THat was before we got married. Like I said before, if God intended me to take natural homeopathic "remedies" I wouldn't have heart disease!

 

[LUVMyBirman]

With the tea I am almost certain you would have to eat the raw leaf or drink a ton of it for it to have a major effect on your INR.
About iron, does it effect ones INR? The moment I was placed on chronic iron therapy was the day my INR leveled out.

 

[Guest]

Iron has nothing to do with the clotting cascade, so it will not affect the INR.

 

[Blanche]

What is "homeopathic" anyway?

What is "homeopathic" anyway?

Homeopathic has become a pejorative term that incites people and conjures up visions of mysterious herbs and potions--voodo medicine. I'm not quite sure what it means myself. I like the term that Dr. Andrew Weil (graduate of Harvard College and Harvard Medical School, and Clinical Professor of Medicine at the University of Arizona) uses--Integrative Medicine. As I understand it, it is the incorporation of natural and traditional medicine. It has to do with providing the body with what it needs to heal. For example, many years ago I had severe problems with ear infections. When ever I got congested, and it was often in cold, rainy Buffalo, New York, I would get an ear infection. A new doctor (MD) told me to gargle with saltwater. He also suggested that snorting saltwater would ward off sinus infections, another problem for me. In the 40 years since then, I've had one ear infection. Interestingly enough, the drug companies now produce saline solution (saltwater) in small inhaler bottles for $2.89. Vinegar is great for sunburn, and if you suspect food poisoning, it sure helps until you can get medical care. Yogurt is great for constipation (increased water intake also helps) and it is great for diarrhea, especially if the diarrhea is caused by antibiotics. I've been fortunate to have doctors who are not quick to prescribe medications, but rather look for other, simple ways to treat my ailments first. My nutritionist friend would argue that nutrition is a science. She may be right.

In the last several years, the medical journals have been featuring many research based articles dealing with the effects of foods, herbs, vitamins, and the like. One of the latest shows the positive effects of almonds on cholesterol. Even the American Heart Association has endorsed fish oils (Omega3 oils). People on anticoagulants must evaluate these and other dietary items for their effect on the blood. Omega 3 oils, for example, have been said to have platelet aggregation inhibitors, so people who take Plavix or asprin might want to exercise care. For me, it still boils down to being knowledgeable and making good decisions.

Perhaps information on the vitamin K content of foods can help.
Bristol Meyers Squib has a lits of common foods on their site.

http:www.coumadin.com/Consumer INT_vitaminK1.asp#top

It's interesting to note that 3.5oz of potato chips (l5), Popcorn popped in oil (20), 1/2 cup pumpkin (16), and 3.5oz of pistacio nuts (70) contain more vitamin K than a small avacado (14), a cup of cucumber slices (2.2) 2/3 cup mature raw onion (0.3). If you like Kale (817), amaranth (ll04), swiss chard (830), or brussels sprouts-5 sprouts (289), you might want to forgo them and choose 3/4 cup of boiled green beans (l6), 1/2 cup califlower (20), or even 5 iceberg lettuce leaves (31). And, much to my astonishment, the chart shows that 3.5oz of brewed green tea contains 0.03. And Al and Gina were right. Green tea leaves (l00 grams) contain 1428.

Regards,
Blanche

 

[deborahj]

Ihave been very interested in the process of calcification and what causes it, and was interested to read in the new advancements forum about statins and one possible effect of these drugs being a slowing down of calcification.
I found a weblink to a site about nanobacteria, which looks interesting...
http://nanobaclabs.com/nanobaclabs-nanobacteria-treatments.asp
This site suggests that bacterial infection and inflammation even on a microscopic level can give rise to valvular calcification.
A herbalist would probably suggest echinacea and hawthorn, the first being an antibiotic and anti inflammatory herb and hawthorn (from which the potent heart drug digitalis comes) as a heart function support; hawthorn (Cratageus) is contraindicated to be taken with Coumadin because it has a possible effect on coumadin although it may be that a gradual introduction may give one's requirements for coumadin a chance to settle.
iIam no doctor or herbalist, but am very interested in naturopathy, homeopathy, accupuncture and nutrition, especially mineral supplements such as magnesium, which seems to be necessary for the heart's good function, and magnesiums relationship to both potassium and calcium levels in the blood and in the cells of the body.
I'd be interested in a homeopaths suggestion of what might prevent calcification.
When I had my valve replaced a homeopath suggested arnica and symphtum as support remedies for recovery.i also took coenzyme 10.
Hope this helps

 

[deborahj]

just found this site about statins and coenzyme Q10...I wish I knew a good biochemist who could tell me if any of this stuff is likely or evidenced!
http://www.epic4health.com/coqandstatdr.html

 

[joy]

I'm not saying that vitamins are bad, I am just saying that with our heart problems and the heart diseases that a lot of us have, we need to talk to a physician and a coumadin expert before going to any lengths in just taking something that will hurt us.

 

[Guest]

Sorry deborahj it does not help but further muddies the waters.

If echinacea is an antibiotic, its activity is so small as to be negligible.

Digoxin and digitalis are not from hawthorn. They came from digitalis purpurea (Foxglove).

Coenzyme Q-10 has a chemical structure similar to vitamin K. If it does anything, it causes peoiple to have to take more warfarin to get a therapeutic INR.

A while back I refused to comment on homeopathy, hoping that someone else would shed some light on it. But since nobody else has, I'll try to get the discussion started.

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THIS THEORY WAS STARTED BEFORE THERE WERE POTENT AND SPECIFIC DRUGS. SIR WILLIAM OUSLER, A FAMED BRITISH PHYSICIAN OF THE TIME, SAID THAT THE PRACTICE OF MEDICINE WAS MERELY TO AMUSE THE PATIENT UNTIL THE BODY HEALED ITSELF. THE LEADERS OF THE TIME REALIZED THAT THERE WERE NO MEDICATIONS WHICH REALLY DID ANYTHING.

Homo means similar. This is where homeopathy comes from. The idea is that like cures like. So if you have a heart rate that is too slow, then you would give digoxin which will slow it even more. Obviously if you gave enough of this, you would kill the person, so homeopathic remedies are diluted -- the more dilute the better.
The theory is that there is some essence of the drug which gets more potent as it is diluted. So 1 part of drug in 100 of alcohol is not as effective as 1 part in 1,000 of alcohol.

Now think this through using alcohol as an example. One person drings a pint of 100 proof (50% alcohol) whiskey. The next person drinks a pint of half whiskey and half water. The next person drinks a pint of 1/4 whiskey and 3/4 water. And you keep diluting until one person gets just one molecule of alcohol and all the rest is water. Who is the most drunk? According to the homeopathic theory the person who gets only the one molucule. The guy who drinks the whiskey straight never would get drunk.

Homoepathic and naturopathic are not the same thing. The naturoapath treats things with natural remedies.

I have met, and I'm sure MATXR knew, some doctors who treated people with sulfa for an infection back in the 1930's. They were amazed to see the patient get better. It was the first time they had ever seen something that they gave to a patient cause the infection to go away in a matter of hours.

Then why are we going back to this old-time stuff today? I think it is a response to the rapid increase of technology. People long for a simpler time. Why does it seem to work? Because your parents had you vaccinated against all sorts of dread diseases. These have bought you the time to let all sorts of "healers" amuse you until your body heals itself.

 

[Nancy]

In my own opinion, homeopathic remedies can be dangerous to use for people like those here. The people on this board have chronic and serious conditions. They have to be managed very carefully with medications which are highly controlled both with dosages, and in the quality control of the manufacturer.

I'm going to give just one example. Joe was hospitalized for quite a while when he had a very high temperature (106.7). He was put on antibiotics for a long time, and came down with diarrhea. It it were to be treated with just yogurt, he probably would have ended up with ulcerative colitis and would have had a serious bleed, and maybe would have had to have surgery. It turned out to be clostridium difficile. We found out what it was because he had a culture done. He was put on Flagyl. Even with that this situation kept coming back for about 3 months. It took a large dose of Flagyl and the addition of Questran to make it go away. I also gave him yogurt to help with the good bacteria. But in hind sight, I probably shouldn't have done even that, because yogurt has a lot of salt in it, at least more than Joe should be having because he has CHF.

I sometimes use some homeopathic remedies myself, if things aren't too bad. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, but psychologically they make me feel good. Most of my things resolve themselves in 7 days with remedies, or 7 days without them. Then I'm out of pocket for the expensive cost of these items.

Regarding sulfa, Al. Boy that hits home. Joe was put on sulfa for rheumatic fever when he was a teenager. He was in the hospital for a year. Obviously it didn't help him. Some of his buddies who got rheumatic fever, who came from wealth, were put on the "new" drug penicillin and they've never had the health problems that Joe has had.