Use of Naturopathic & Homoeopathic Remedies

[William McQueen]

I am preparing for two valve replacements on January 28. And of course I will have to use warfarin (coumadin). I saw in my drugstore a large poster of counter-indicated supplements/vitamins near the vitamin section by the warfarin manufacturer FARO.

I have been a homoeopathic patient for more than 30 years and a naturopathic patient for the past four years.

In my research so far, I have been struck by three things initially about taking warfarin:

1. Warfarin excelerates calcification of the vessels and valves;
2. Warfarin depletes Co-Enzyme Q10, an essential for healthy hearts;
3. Depletes Vitamin K (which most westerners do not get enough of in their diet).

While Mies Vermeer in Holland believes that Vitamin K can reverse vessel and valve calcification, it is still not well enough established, and my time is too short, to wait for more studies. (Several short-term studies indicates his conclusions. Life Extension Foundation also indicated in a recent article the values of Vitamin K, and of course, Vitamin K is a standard treatment for osteoporosis in Japan.)

I have asked several times of my cardiologist for a consult with someone who knows naturopathy and who can help me navigate though these times. This has not yet happened, although I expect that at the preop seminar there will be passing mention only.

What is the collective wisdom hereabouts in regard to eating healthy and using naturopathic supplements as we advance into our "senior" years supporting a long and healthy life which the valve replacements are designed to offer?

How do YOU manage your diet in regard to INR measurement/management?

Thanks for listening.

 

[Granbonny]

Alternative medicines

Alternative medicines

One of our members is a R.N.......who knows a lot about alternative medicines, vitamins. Look her up as AZPAM under our members......She receives Private E-mails...I'm sure she can answer these questions. Bonnie

 

[Nancy]

Hi William-

My husband has been on Coumadin for 25 years, and it's the LEAST of his worries. He gets tested, takes what they tell him, then forgets about it until the next test. For him, it's a non-issue.

He pretty much eats what he wants, except he's very low sodium.

By the way, he's in the hospital, and they give him greens all the time.

We have a wonderful brilliant member, allodwick who manages a Coumadin clinic. Visit his site warfarinfo.com. There's a ton of info. there.

 

[LA_Cruiser]

William McQueen, et al....

William McQueen, et al....

..we 'could use' an alternative medicine AND Nancy's suggested 'medical tips' in this forum or at the very least 'specific' threads on each subject.

--Nancy, William, are your ear plugs on?

O.K. then, let's start the Medical Tips AND Alternative Medicines thread 'till we get a permanent classification (we can always 'transfer' accumulated info).

William's ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE, and Nancy's MEDICAL TIPS treads should be up and running within 24 hours.

I suggest the 'Small Talk' classification as the most appropriate for now although Small Talk is NOT consistent with the results possible from non-medical treatments that are lifesavers.

I?ll be ?one of your first customers? as I have one ?reply? for each thread.

Get on your mark, get set??.

God Bless all

 

[Rain]

Yooo hooo.... AZPAM..... where are you?

Yooo hooo.... AZPAM..... where are you?

Not only do I eat what I want... mostly salads... but the muli-vitamin I take has vitamin K in it too.

But don't 'private message AZPAM' I wanna hear what she has to say too!!

 

[Blanche]

William:
I, too, would be interested in receiving information about Coumadin and calcification. I have never heard of this before and neither has our doctor.

With regard to Vitamin K, Coumadin/warfarin is a Vitamin K antagonist. The reason for taking anticoagulants is to conteract Vitamin K, which is a coagulant. There are many supplements, such as Vitamins E and C, as well as other "natural remedies" that interact with Coumadin and must be avoided. People on anticoagulants avoid foods high in Vitamin K, such as green leafy vegetables-- especially kale, brussel sprouts, spinach--- in order to maintain a stable INR. You may want to do some net searches. I will look for some links for you and I'm sure others will too.

My husband has been on Coumadin for 12 years. He eats whatever he likes, but does moderate his intake of foods high in Vitamin K. He does have osteoporosis, but then, I do too and I do not take anticoagulants.

 

[Herb M]

Many foods, medications and supplements are reported to interfere with Coumadin. AS long as a person stays on about the same same diet and does not vary the supplemenents, the routine blood tests (INR) will enable your physician to make adjustments in medication to correspond to your diet and supplements.

I take numerous supplements that are reported to interfere with Coumadin. My doesage stays fairly constant.

 

[azpam]

Azpam here. i did email william mcqueen separately. not sure how to "swing" that email info to here. so will type approx. what i told him: any homeopathy is good for anyone! does not interact with coumadin and can't overdose on true homeopathy. however many say homeopathy and put in same catagory as vitamins and herbs. a whole different ballgame! herbs to stay away from while on coumadin:feverfew,devils claw, garlic(in large amounts),ginkgo,ginseng,angelica,bilberry,dong quai,ginger, flaxseed,guarana(caffeine),white and black willow,red clover,dandelion,ma huang,aloe,horse chestnut,st.john wort,green tea,and turmeric. now green tea,and garlic are good for you but i would say only in small amounts occasionally if you choose too. also good for you are vit.E, vit.C supplements and vit.K foods. however with consist use, you could adjust your coumadin dose to your daily supplement needs of E,C, and K foods(broccoli,cabbage,greens,etc). but with consistancy and common sense. not all of above were all herbs. also co-enzyme Q10 is very good heart health,however those on coumadin should use caution with it unfortunately. i say unfortunately because i really like co-enzyme Q10 but use caution. a book i really like for drug info is Dangerous Drug Interactions by Joe Graedon. (the peoples pharmacy). i of course have a LONG list of drugs to be wary with coumadin. if needed let me know and i will type them out. most of you know most of them anyway.hope this helps someone!

 

[LA_Cruiser]

azpam............

azpam............

...either post them here or email them to me and I will arrange them and host them on my website for others to download or print-out.

You can write them in 'word' and email me the document 'as is.'

THX for your help and God Bless all

 

[William McQueen]

Interactions

Interactions

Here is the information on Warfarin interaction provided to me by the manufacturer of Warfarin, FARO:

The textbook is titled Natural Medicines Comprehensive Database. It is
published yearly and compiled by the editors of Pharmacist's
Letter/Prescriber's Letter. The 2002 edition is the fourth edition. The
website for this database is www.naturaldatabase.com and access requires a
yearly subscription fee.

Our natural health products poster was developed with the help of Heather
Boon. She is the co-author of another book that you might want to look
at. It is called The Botanical Pharmacy. The Pharmacology of 47 Common
Herbs. This text was published in 1999, copyright The Institute of
Naturopathic Education and Research.

Things are quite hectic, but more information to come as I am able and can find time before the operation.

 

[Blanche]

Drug Interactions and Coumadin

Drug Interactions and Coumadin

Thank you, Pam, for the very instructive list. I hope the following will save you from having to type a very long list of drug interactions. Try this http://www.fpnotebook.com/HEM164.htm
This is from the site www.familypracticenotebook.com and under Hematology and Oncology. This site is good for many things relating to the heart, as well as most medical general topice. It's easy to navigate too. Let me know if this doesn't work.

 

[Guest]

I would like to see the methodology of the study that showed warfarin damages heart valves. Specifically was it double-blinded and placebo controlled and randomized from the start. Also did it include enough people and follow-up for enough years to have the power to prove what it claims. If it was less than 1,000 people for less than 5 years, it probably did not have to power to prove the claim.

To illustrate what I mean about too small a sample. I have been in London when it was 92 degrees and I have been in Tucson when it was snowing. If those two days were my only sample then my conclusion would be that Tucson is much colder than London. But we all know that if I had 1,000 observations then that would not be my conclusion.

Warfarin has been on the market for over 50 years. The pharmaceutical companies have surely looked everywhere for an alternative. The best conclusion is that aspirin is second best and you give up about 80% of the protection of warfarin to take it. So rest assured that anything else means that you have given up more than 80% of the protection to get a natural product.

Lets suppose that the arguments about warfarin that started this thread were true. However, they must occur slowly or there would be only a few members of vr.com left. We also know that anyone with a mechanical heart valve who goes without warfarin will be lucky to live a year. If the natural product affords 15% of the protection of warfarin then you would be lucky to live 14 months (15% is better than nothing). So the question becomes, would your choice be to live 14 months and be true to the natural way of life or live 20 to 30 years taking a horrible chemical?

 

[LUVMyBirman]

Nicely put as usual AL.

Think I will take my chances with the 'rat poison'. Even with the fact that I had a very very close call ...on the border of fatal. How's about an INR of 14. If I were any older at the time of my hemorrhage..... I would not be writing this today. Few things by my side the good Lord, youth and frozen plasma.

 

[Blanche]

Al, can you help this person

Al, can you help this person

William McQueen is preparing for dual valve surgery on January 28 and he has questions about warfarin. Can you help him out by addressing his needs at this time, please? I'm sure that many here, and me especially (you did suggest that someone nominate me for membership in the American College of Clinical Pharmacy) would like, yes, yearn for information about homeopathic methods and valve replacement. Mind you, I know there is no substitute for warfarin/coumadin, but would like your expert opinion on how to incorporate homeopathic medicine with accepted anticoagulation methods. It appears to me that this person is coming from square one an could certainly benefit from a hand-up from you on the issues involved in anticoagulation therapy. Appreciate your assistance.

Regarding double-blind and placebo controlled and randomized studies (experimental studies), I would suggest that these are not possible if you are talking about people with mechanical valves. In order to have such a study, you would have to withold anticoagulation from the control group, and we both know that this is not medically appropriate. I did, however, find one recent article by wallin, R., Wajih, N., Greenwood, GT., and Sane, DC of wakeforets University of Medicine, entitled "Arterial Calcification;A Review of Mechanisms, Animal Modes, and Prosepcts for Theory" that might be of interest to you. I hope you can find it at hhtp:www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uido-11410932&dept=Abstract

As always, I appreciate you and the assistance you give here to those of us who wish to be informed, pro-active patients. I value you more than I can say.

Kind regards,
Blanche

 

[Guest]

Blanche,

Your point is well put about not being able to do a placebo-controlled study because it would be unethical.

But, I'll stick to the part about the small sample size.

Shortly after President Nixon went to China in 1972 and Americans subsequently became interested in Eastern methods such as accupuncture, I was working with a doctor who had gone to medical school in Hanoi in the 1940s. I thought surely he would know how accupuncture worked, so I asked. His reply was that when he went to school most of his class thought that the accupuncturists were a bunch of goofy old men and he did not take that class.

Today, I'm sorry to say that I am now about the age that Dr. Chu was in 1973 and I must admit to a similar bias about homeopathy.

It will have to default to someone who understands it more than me to explain it.

 

[epstns]

I'm no expert here, but as a newly diagnosed member I've been reading a LOT (wife says too much!). I thought I remembered that there were citations in articles that in Europe there is much less use of anticoagulants after aortic valve replacement (mech) than in the US. They felt that the volume and velocity of the flow made clotting on the artificial valve almost a non-issue.

Anyone else remember this? Any value here? (Of course, if I receive a mechanical, I will do exactly as my care team directs -- I'm just curious.)

SteveE

 

[Nancy]

Clotting on the valve is most certainly an issue. I don't think there is a responsible heart doctor or surgeon in the US who would recommend no anticoagulation. Of course, if someone wants to experiment with his/her life---

Right now there are no other choices. It's Coumadin or Warfarin. There might be something in the future, but right now that's it.

It's really not that much of an issue. In time it will be just another part of your life. You will learn to cope with it. We can all adjust to little inconveniences in life.

Husband has been on it for 25 years.

 

[Granbonny]

Steve

Steve

Please go back and read the 12th post on this thread..from..Al..Last paragraph.Bonnie

 

[wlaldridge]

My surgeon set my INR target low from the get go. He set it at 2.0 to 3.0 rather than 2.5 to 3.5. He and I talked about it and he pointed out that mechanicals in the aortic position see high velocities and volumes with low likelyhood of clotting. And he pointed out that some places they just don't anticoagulate these valves.

That said, he was not being irresponsible, rather he didn't want me obsessing about the mechanical valve and warfarin being such a big deal. He and I both agreed that further reducing the likelyhood of a clot made sense.

My cardiologist concurred. I now take 81 mg asprin with my warfarin dose and, of course, try for consistancy in my exercise and diet. I don't obsess about the INR as long as it is close to the theraputic range. I test every 4 weeks or so and unless there is a lifestyle change or medication change won't be testing at shorter intervals. So far so good

 

[joy]

THe only problem I have with the coumadin,is the lady who takes my blood always just jams the needle right in my arm and it hurts...bad. It's also sort of hard for me to get to the lab to get my INR tested, but I hae always gone as they tell me to. I just do what my coumadin nurse tells me to and realize that even though the people with mechanical valves will be on coumadin for life, I am only on it for a couple of months. Take care guys, and as for you Marco...just take your coumadin! It's not that big of a deal, you should have thought about it before you chose the mechanical valve. Quit screwing around and asking stupid questions and just take it! The doctors in the US are some of the best in the world, they know what they are talking about, so now it's on you.