Newly Diagnosed- Bodybuilding and Exertion

[Paleowoman]

Well, Arnold Schwarzenegger was also born with bicuspid aortic valve. We all know he did very serious body building/strength training. From what I remember he had his first heart surgery when he was fifty with the Ross procedure. He’s had two more heart surgeries since then.

 

[tommyboy14]

Well, Arnold Schwarzenegger was also born with bicuspid aortic valve. We all know he did very serious body building/strength training. From what I remember he had his first heart surgery when he was fifty with the Ross procedure. He’s had two more heart surgeries since then.

Depending on how we count heart surgeries you could say he has had 4:

1. Ross Procedure in 1997 at 47

2. Reop for failed autograft two days later (We dont know if the fixed the autograft or needed to replace)

3. Attempted transcather pulmonary valve replacement, which converted to OHS in 2018.

4. TAVR for aortic valve in 2020 (this time successfull).

I would note that this is a lot of procedures to rack up for someone over only 20 years. I do wonder if would have been better off even with a bio valve, he could have avoided at least one surgery. Clearly had he gone mechanical he would have just done one OHS, but then I suppose he wouldnt be able to do action movies anymore, so perhaps in his case it is understandable why he wanted to avoid warfarin....

 

[Paleowoman]

I wonder, in view of the question in YoungSauce's post at the start of this thread about lifting hard and heavy, how much Schwarzenegger's hard and heavy weight lifting affected his bicuspid aortic valve.

Depending on how we count heart surgeries you could say he has had 4:

1. Ross Procedure in 1997 at 47

2. Reop for failed autograft two days later (We dont know if the fixed the autograft or needed to replace)

3. Attempted transcather pulmonary valve replacement, which converted to OHS in 2018.

4. TAVR for aortic valve in 2020 (this time successfull).

I would note that this is a lot of procedures to rack up for someone over only 20 years. I do wonder if would have been better off even with a bio valve, he could have avoided at least one surgery. Clearly had he gone mechanical he would have just done one OHS, but then I suppose he wouldnt be able to do action movies anymore, so perhaps in his case it is understandable why he wanted to avoid warfarin....

 

[pellicle]

how much Schwarzenegger's hard and heavy weight lifting affected his bicuspid aortic valve.

its a good question and one which we will never really have a definitive answer for.

I prefer to take the precautionary principle and make the assessment of:
"aneurysm is known to be caused by connective tissue disorder, BAV is evidence of connective tissue disorder, we know that pipes which take pressure need to be re-enforced not weaker or they'll get a bulge and pop."

Why wouldn't you apply that to yourself?

My own views on that question would be a mixture of denial (won't happen to me) and ignorance.

 

[Paleowoman]

its a good question and one which we will never really have a definitive answer for.

I know...and possibly Schwarzenegger didn't know he had a bicuspid aortic valve when he was younger, it wasn't until he was 47 that he had the Ross procedure. I read a biography, or maybe it was an autobiography, of him some years ago and it wasn't obvious when he found out he had BAV.

I think that doctors pick up the murmur of bicuspid aortic valve better these days as stethoscopes and echocardiograms are better, eg mine was picked up by a regular doctor in France when I was 25 when I consulted him because I had a chest infection, but other doctors had listened to my chest before and not heard anything whereas the French doctor was very surprised I didn't know about it.

 

[Rixtory]

YoungSauce,
I'm 63 now. I was diagnosed with BAV when I surprisingly failed my annual Army flight physical 42 years ago. I became a bodybuilder and used anabolic steroids for a few years. Probably one of the worst things I could do, besides forget to pre-treat for dental work.
Now, 40 years and 4 aortic valve replacements later, and very lucky to be alive, here are my thoughts.
- I would suggest staying away from monster weights. You can still get ripped and build muscle with less massive weights - Benching Sets of 10-15 with 225#-250# and squatting with not more than 250# - even better to stay around 185#-225#. You can still build decent muscle at these weights.
- Always pre-treat with antibiotics - It seems like there wasn't as much info or focus on this stuff 40 years ago. With the internet now, there is a lot of information available.
- If you can, try to stave off your first AVR (aortic valve replacement) until at least your 40's. This is not always possible, but I still believe it is better to have an early AVR and preserve heart function rather than waiting and having an enlarged heart. Think of partially blowing up a balloon and look at the elasticity as you squeeze it. vs blowing up a balloon and leaving it for a day and letting most the air out - and the stretched-out lack of elasticity.
If I were doing it again, I would opt for a Minimally Invasive surgery with a porcine valve and try to avoid a lifetime of blood thinners. Please See my profile and introduction for my experiences with mechanical valves.
I wish you the best.

 

[pellicle]

Hi

If you can, try to stave off your first AVR (aortic valve replacement) until at least your 40's. This is not always possible, but I still believe it is better to have an early AVR and preserve heart function rather than waiting and having an enlarged heart.

little confused here by what appears to be diametrically opposed views. Is your final position "have surgery slightly before the surgeons say "you'd better have it or the risk you'll die from it is grater than the risks you'll die from sugery" (which is how it was in the 70's).

If I were doing it again, I would opt for a Minimally Invasive surgery with a porcine valve and try to avoid a lifetime of blood thinners

can I guess from this that you have had difficulty in management of INR?

I know when I was 28 (I'm nearing 60 now) my surgeon said to me "we don't want you on warfarin just yet" and we put a homograft in. Since then warfarin management has improved leaps and bounds (perhaps not in the USA) with the encouragement to self test and either get guidance from a clinic or self manage. Many developed countries even give you a Coaguchek (basically) for free and some even make the strips free.

I really hope that my upcoming book on INR self management helps someone out there, but right now I fell on a bit of a downer in that direction. I know its simple but you can't make something foolproof.

Best Wishes

 

[Lucker]

little confused here by what appears to be diametrically opposed views. Is your final position "have surgery slightly before the surgeons say "you'd better have it or the risk you'll die from it is grater than the risks you'll die from sugery" (which is how it was in the 70's).

I think the idea is to do what you can to delay the indications for surgery as far as possible, but when the surgery is close and imminent, to have it soon.

 

[Brian B]

Hi from a slightly frosty south west(erly) Queensland



that's a wise choice. There's nothing good that comes from that. At 23 you won't see that, but at 53 you'll sorta wish you hadn't. So its good you aren't anymore. My view is that its like alcohol, very easy to slip from "basic use" to mis-use over years and in the face of issues. BTW I used to drink and like a drink but basically now since I developed an arrhythmia I can't (long story right there).

https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/steroids

The misuse of anabolic steroids can cause long-term side effects. These can include cardiovascular complications, liver disease, reproductive organ damage and severe mood swings. Support is available for anabolic steroid users who want to change their dependence on these drugs.​

You're now aware that you are already pre-disposed to an existing cardiovascular complication so use of that toxic stuff will just increase your chances of making it worse.

I guess I'll start by saying that you now know you have not only BAV but all of what goes with BAV. BAV comes as a host of problems (and its genetic) which may or may not manifest immediately, but will be sort of like a dice roll for the future, this includes aneurysm of the aortic artery (which leads to sudden death if not monitored). So you now know you'll need to go in for regular monitoring, which is likely to be just an echo every other year unless more things are found. Some details (which are not applicable to you yet) are found here:

https://www.racgp.org.au/afp/2013/june/aortic-aneurysms
I include this because my goal is to inform you and lead you away from the darkness of "ignorance led anxiety". The more you know the more you can make informed decisions.

Myself I was diagnosed at about 5 and monitored yearly up at Chermside hospital (in Brisbane, Queensland) until I needed my first surgery at about 10yo (essentially a repair). I had another one to replace the valve at 28 (*a homograft) and my 3rd (last one) at about 48 to replace that valve (with a mechanical) and repair an aneurysm (using a synthetic fiber tube). I continue to be about normally active since then. I have lived OS a lot and spent the majority of my time in Finland (where I enjoy XC skiing).

So surgery is just like fixing a part that is broken or defective and the car still works.



hard to give you clarification on that, because your cardio should do that as they have the data. But the heart block may mean you need an intervention in time. If I was you I'd scale back the exersize to "normal" not "try to be Arnie" or Ravinder Malik.

I'll out myself here and say to me exersize and training should be for some reason (mine was general health cycling and Aikido). I've done weight training (not in a body building way) since I was in my late teens, but its always been for making me healthy.

If something you are doing is not healthy then my view is "stop doing it". So in your case YOU need to work our your appropriate level of exercise that helps you health not harms it. Its an individual thing and something that you will work out over time with other considerations and measurements to guide you.



what he means by heart block

I get that, so next time I recommend you ask "can I record this" and do that.



I myself don't pretend to be a cardiologist and don't really dig into those things ...

unwise unless you happen to have the genetics to support it, which evidence suggests you don't (also I dislike qualitative, and prefer quantitative): so how many Kg and details. There are people here who are weight lifters (a few come to mind) and they'll be better placed to advise on that, but even they'll say aneurysm makes things different.



agree with that. So, solid but honest point relating to upsetting: would you rather be dead?

Everyone "wanted to be something" ... what are you willing to pay to be that for a short time?

I've been lots of things, my goals changed over time. Sometimes I changed them, sometimes the world changed them. For instance I've changed career 3 times (at least) because of external economic forces. Did biochemistry, then electronics engineering, then computing then environmental science, went back to computing.

Evolution dictates that we adapt to reality or fail as I see it. If that sounds harsh, the grand experiment of life is harsher.


probably



well firstly normal people don't body build. So you should return to training for health and personal fitness within your limits. Body building isn't actually healthy.



yep

https://www.newsweek.com/my-turn-climbing-everest-bionic-heart-99749
That woman probably has more endurance than you and fitter than you (or any other body builder) and had a mechanical valve and still climbed Mt Everest ...



don't conflate endurance with peak strength.



you already know ... I'd suggest you're already heading towards abuse of steroids in your future because giving it up seems so hard.



lastly I'll say learn properly don't just read junk conspiracy, only read peer reviewed journals and go in knowing it'll take you at least a year of solid background before you actually can start really grappling with the subject. If you failed school and failed science its going to be hard to learn more and you'll have to accept some things at face value. If you have to choose who to trust: trust science.

http://cjeastwd.blogspot.com/2021/07/done-my-research.html
Take you're time, you've got your whole life to learn.

Feel free to reach out with a PM if you want to discuss anything.


Best Wishes

Who says bodybuilding is not healthy.

 

[pellicle]

Who says bodybuilding is not healthy.

it can be, but its not always (hint: if it involves steroids its not). Further if its causing your heart problems then its not.

PS:

https://www.aedleader.com/why-bodybuilders-get-heart-attacks/
https://scalaprecisionhealth.com/sudden-death-in-bodybuilders-and-endurance-athletes/
old saying: everything in moderation

 

[tom in MO]

Who says bodybuilding is not healthy.

It's not the best exercise for long term health. Try swimming

 

[SatoriFound]

NVM. I need to check dates on this stuff.

 

[SatoriFound]

Taking steroids for recreational purposes is no more a lifestyle than taking heroin.

Your steroid use could be the cause of your low testosterone. A quick search with Dr. Google gives this:

Anabolic steroids may severely, and even permanently, impair testosterone production and fertility, new research suggests.Mar 1, 2021

How long do fertility and testosterone take to recover from ...​

YES!. I LOVED drinking alcohol, I still miss it. Sometimes we have to find new things to love. My drinking has to be partially responsible for the problems I am having now, even though I quit years before I was diagnosed.