Magnesium supplements

[Mary]

What do you think?

What do you think?

I went out and purchased Magnesium Oxide ( 500mg) today in capsule form. I bought this one particularly since it's a capsule, and sometimes I have trouble swallowing tablets.
I know the 500mg is just a tad high. Should I stick to taking one capsule a day or reduce the amount by shaking a little out like my son suggests?
Mary

 

[Gemma]

Well, Jim hasn't asked his doctor about the magnesium yet - he saw the phlebotomist on Monday who doesn't have a computer in her room, rather than the nurse he usually sees, and didn't ask if they could find out about it for him (is this a guy thing??? - not wanting to ask people to go out of their way???). He said he'll ask the doctor next time he goes to see him.
BUT, following Al's suggestion he hasn't eaten any chocolate all week, and has not had any noticeable ectopic beats either So, although the answer wasn't what I'd expected, the problem seems to be solved . Thank you Al!!
I'll be keeping everything crossed until November (next cardio appointment) that things stay that way and we can maybe even convince the cardio to stop the sotalol and ramipril. Hey, everybody's got to have a goal .
Gemma.

 

[surfsparky]

Hi Gemma,
I've been reading this thread with much interest as everthing Jim is going through, pretty much mirrors what my husband Chris is going through. Thanks for all of your info, it's been great. For the past few days we have been eliminating caffeine, chocolate (although I think he's sneaking it on the side!) and including more foods in his diet that are high in magnesium. It's made a big difference in just a few days .. the "ectopic" episodes are much less frequent. So although you were posting for Jim and yourself, you've also helped us (and I'm sure many others) along the way..thanks!
Glad to hear Jim's ectopic episodes are improving too...keep us posted.
Yolanda

 

[Gemma]

Hi Yolanda,
I'm glad this has helped Chris and yourself as well. I think it's great that we can all share experiences here and that something like chocolate can be suggested as the possible culprit for causing ectopic beats and turn out to be true for more than one person is amazing when you think about it. I bet that's not something a lot of doctors would consider even asking about if you were to ask them why these weird beats were happening.
I notice Chris has "SVT" in his signature line - I take it that's supraventricular tachycardia. Is it something that's under control now, and does he take medication for it? Just asking as Jim was admitted to hospital with SVT 1 month post-op and was then put on the sotalol, which we think may now be contributing to the ectopic beats. I can't really find any information relating to long-term treatment of SVT (ie whether it's necessary or not), but as he had no problems before that one bout, and has had no SVT-type symptoms for months, I've no idea if the sotalol's controlling it or it just isn't there to be controlled and the sotalol is doing the same as it would if you gave it to someone with no arrythmia issues!!
Gemma.

 

[surfsparky]

Hi Gemma,
Our cardio said that with SVT, it will come and go through out Chris' life. There will be times where it rears it's ugly head (like now) and there will be months where he won't experience it at all. Lately it has worsened to the point that it's happening frequently, and thus stopping Chris from pursuing his passions - the main one being surfing. So he was prescribed Atenolol, but after researching the side effects of the this medication, it's prompted us to look for alternative methods (hence why I was rapt to see your post). Rush20's post on Toprol was good to read too, especially Rob's information. So we are going to give the conservative methods a try for the next couple of months, before Chris goes on the beta blockers. Apparently if the SVT worsens there is a procedure where they burn the site where the electrical impulses are "getting confused". However, for a VR patient, the risks are a little higher than for patients with no VR history. We are also cautious of Atenolol because in Chris' line of work (electrician) he really can't afford to be feeling "groggy" when he working with wires!
Good on you for doing so much research for Jim and learning so much about Valve Replacements and related issues...your knowledge is amazing.
Yolanda

 

[alok]

Ectopics

Ectopics

Hi , I get ectopics once in a while and it really bothers me. My cardio has prescribed a very small dose of Beta blocker called Nebicard, a new generation of drugs which generally helps in my ectopics. However, unlike others my ectopics gets trigerred by exertion and i get very anxious though my heart rate rarely goes beyond 130 even after playing 4 hours of golf. Its been over 18 months since my surgery and i am also on eltroxin for thyroid.

My INR fluctuates like crazy.. does anybody have similar problems???? Does magnesium interfere with Coumarin?

Valve replacment, carbo medics
england

 

[Gemma]

Hi Alok,
I think ectopics happen in different people for different reasons - some are triggered by exercise, others (like Jim) get them at rest. I think thyroid problems can also cause palpitations sometimes - could this be anything to do with it?
I don't believe magnesium interferes with warfarin, but I have read that warfarin can affect the way your body absorbs magnesium.
Jim finally went back to his doctor a couple of weeks ago!! Apparently they don't test magnesium levels as it isn't considered "interesting" enough (to paraphrase his GP!) But as Jim asked about it, he's now testing for that, as well as calcium, electrolytes, and various other stuff. Had the test last Wednesday, got a call from the hospital on Monday to say they had messed up the tests so now he's had to go in again this morning for ANOTHER blood draw . Still got the bruise from the test last week in one arm, now he'll have one to match in the other.
Just hope they get it right this time and we actually get to the bottom of this at last!!!

 

[tobagotwo]

I suspect that a magnesium supplement wouldn't be a bad idea, even if he doesn't come up low. The recommmended amounts are only to avoid an actual deficit that causes harm, not to say how much you really should have. With your cardio's permission, you might want to go ahead with it anyway. Truthfully, cardios don't seem to care at all about magnesium supplements, and you likely won't even get a rise out of him with it. Same-same with many other supplements.

The only biases I have about it are that I like to take a mix, because I don't know which magnesium compound my body will process best, and I don't like the calcium/magnesium combo pills, as I have read that the two bind to each other, rendering them harmless, but also pointless. That would include the coral calciums. However, there are many very divergent opinions regarding that (including a lot of nonsense marketing on US TV), so I may well not have the only flashlight to the truth on this.

Good luck with this. Addition of a moderate amount of magnesium should be a no-brainer, with the exception of any specific drugs that it may block, and that can be controlled by when you take it.

Best wishes,

 

[Dirk]

An extremely good nutrition agianst arrhythmias is to take fish oil.

It has been proven that its effect compares with quite strong other medication.

If you take fishoil, see that you get capsules with a big content of Omega-3-Fatty Acids.
The leading brand here is Omacor.

Another cheaper possibility is
Twinlab Mega Twin Epa,


Greetings


Dirk

 

[alok]

What about Jim's INR . does it fluctuate a lot ? mine drops to as low as 1.5 and then shoots up to 6, on the same doseage of warfarin. How often do you test bfor INR?

 

[tobagotwo]

I also take the virgin salmon oil capsules for their Omega 3 fatty acids, which I do believe are helpful to the heart. Yet I believe the magnesium is more strongly tied to arrhythmias.

Best wishes,

 

[Gemma]

Bob, I think you're right - I'm sure Jim's cardio wouldn't bat an eyelid if we mentioned magnesium supplements (although he'd probably force another drug on him as well as he's that kind of person ). Still waiting for the results - expecting them some time towards the middle of next week, but I think Jim's going to see his GP to discuss them so maybe not until Thursday or Friday - depends when he can make an appointment. It's a bit complicated at his surgery as the doctors rotate around 3 different surgeries so are not at his local one all day every day, and he has to ring in the morning of the day he wants the appointment to book it. Supposed to reduce the number of no-shows apparently.
The only thing that seems to stop Jim getting ectopic beats at the moment has been walking 4 miles up and 4 miles down a mountain. So we either need to do that every day or the answer is in the amount of exercise needed to make his resting heart rate normal - my money's still on the sotalol working too well...
Alok - Jim's INR has been pretty stable. As time has progressed since his operation his dosage has increased, but he hasn't had fluctuations like you describe. The clinic has him on an 8-week test interval now, but he tests every 2-3 weeks himself and is staying in range. Could it be something to do with your diet or what you drink? I'm sure everyone here would agree consistency is the key. Maybe you could post your question in the Coumadin forum (that's the American name for warfarin) and see if Al Lodwick has any suggestions.
Gemma.

 

[tobagotwo]

Actually, Gemma, you make an excellent point. That is another response to arrhythmia that we often overlook. Exercise tends to even out the heart rate. It's not a solo cure, but it can definitely help. The heart seems to naturally go into a more standard rhythm when you are walking or running at a steady pace.

That doesn't mean that when you get palpitations, you leap up and do jumping jacks. That would probably be inappropriate It means that you keep at regular exercise like Jim, and you will likely experience fewer arrhythmias, as long as you don't greatly overdo.

Of course, if you exercise heavily regularly, your chance of overdoing should become less as well.

I found that when I slacked on the exercise, I experienced more of the "crappiness" effect, and now take it as a signal to pursue physical activities with renewed zeal.

Best wishes,

 

[ALCapshaw2]

MAGNESIUM and ARRHYTHMIAS

MAGNESIUM and ARRHYTHMIAS

I have talked with 3 Doctors (an Internist, a Cardiologist, and and an Electro-Physiologist) about the effects of Magnesium on suppressing arrhythmias.

The all AGREE that a LOW Magnesium Level can cause arrhythmias to be more prevalent. BUT, they also all agree that IF your magnesium level is 'normal' they do not see any benefit to additional magnesium supplements and point out that there are NO scientific studies supporting that for the general population.

They just shrug their shoulders when I tell them of the VR.com members who report that magnesium supplements stopped their arrhythmias. They did not discount that "SOME" people may benefit from additional supplements but that is likely a small percentage (and presumably not of interest to the medical community on a large scale basis).

SO, does anyone know of any STUDIES supporting Magnesium Supplements for patients whose magnesium levels are typically in the 'normal' range?

I've been on Sotalol for 6 weeks now and while the headaches have subsided for the most part, I still notice that I become Short of Breath more easily than before Sotalol (and before my A-fib became more of a nuisance). It sure would be nice to go back to a low dose of Toprol which I tolerated quite well and perhaps a magnesium supplement IF that would do the job. So far none of my Doc's recommends that approach...

'AL'

 

[JimChicago]

What is 'normal'?

One problem with their definition of normal range is that some persons require more than others. An ill persons needs more Vit C than a healthy person - etc.

Also - magnesium cannot be patented so it is unlikely that the Pharma companies will fund or promote a lot of publicity or studies about it.

From:
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/feb2004_itn_01.htm
>>>>
Greater intake of magnesium appears to lower one?s risk of developing coronary heart disease, according to a study recently published in the American Journal of Cardiology.1

Researchers analyzed data for more than 7,000 male participants in the Honolulu Heart Program, which began in the mid-1960s. Nearly 1,500 of these men developed coronary heart disease during the 30-year study period.

The researchers discovered that the more magnesium the men consumed, the lower their risk of developing heart disease. The men who consumed the lowest amounts of magnesium were approximately twice as likely to develop coronary heart disease as those men who consumed the highest.

The researchers noted that these findings are consistent with those of other studies such as the Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities Study2 and the National Health and Nutrition Exam Survey,3 in which higher blood levels of magnesium were associated with lower coronary heart disease risk.

?Magnesium deficiency is believed to have adverse cardiovascular consequences, including broad and complex effects on hypertension, diabetes, cardiac arrhythmias, atherosclerosis, and sudden cardiac death,? the researchers concluded.

References
1. Abbott RD, Ando F, Masaki KH, et al. Dietary magnesium intake and the future risk of coronary heart disease (the Honolulu Heart Program). Am J Cardiol. 2003 Sep 15;92(6):665-9.

2. Liao F, Folsom AR, Brancati FL. Is low mag- nesium concentration a risk factor for coronary heart disease? The Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities (ARIC) Study. Am Heart J. 1998 Sep;136(3):480-90.

3. Gartside PS, Glueck CJ. The important role of modifiable dietary and behavioral characteristics in the causation and prevention of coronary heart dis- ease hospitalization and mortality: the Prospective NHANES I Follow-up Study. J Am Coll Nutr. 1995 Feb;14(1):71-9.
>>>>

 

[tobagotwo]

Nice reference material, Jim. I had no idea there were sources that good out there for magnesium use.

There a lot of mentions about magnesium in the forums. Entering "magnesium" in search generates a lot of traffic.

Gemma's point about many magnesium-rich foods being also high in vitamin K (and thus generally avoided by many warfarin users) is also salient, and should be considered particularly by mechanical valve owners.

Again, the government's MDR for magnesium (and all other vitamins and minerals) is not based on what you should have to be healthy, but on how much you need to have in order to avoid developing actual symptoms caused by a deficit of it.

As such, a doctor may be well aware from government MDR studies of what happens when there is a low magnesium count, as it's in his/her training. But that doctor may well not have been exposed to resources that indicate benefits (or lack of benefits) derived from higher amounts of magnesium or other vitamin and mineral compounds. My experience is that worse, they tend to get their vitamin tips only from cardiology-related sources, rather than the more eclectic reading material pursued outside of the discipline.

I also agree with Jim about the lack of interest because of a lack of patentability and potential profit.

As an example, the magnesium capsules I take, 400mg, with three different magnesium compounds to help ensure absorption, are $2.69 for 100 capsules at Swansons Vitamins (checked today), and are likely similarly priced at other places. So, at less than $3.00 for an over-3-month supply for a "fancy" variety, not a lot of people are going to get rich on magnesium.

Lack of profit potential also makes for a low interest in doing studies, as they can be expensive. Return On Investment does figure greatly in directing the topics and resources of studies.

I'm sure magnesium won't do it for everyone, and it is likely to be a part of a compound answer when it does work. However, it may help in any given individual, it's cheap, and it's basically harmless. The only caveat I have seen is that it shouldn't be taken simultaneously with a small percentage of drugs. Offsetting the time the magnesium is taken seems to satisfy even that issue, though. If you run it by your cardio and/or pharmacist, and they have no issue, it would just seem like a prudent thing to take.

Best wishes,

 

[Stitch]

GemmaJ and Surfsparky,

I have taken Mg for a number of years (10). I don't think it helped me much with SVT (I started taking it for cramps and now to keep my bp down). I did all the stuff you guys are doing eliminating different foods, coffee, and quiting smoking. The biggest thing that helped me was staying away from carbs, but I still had more and more trouble as I got older. SVT happened to me at very inconvenient times. The times I had to go to the emergency room to get it to stop were very inconvenient. In the end I had 2 Ablations that have ended my SVT problems. I also had a Ross Procedure and still have missed beats now and then. I have also taken Atenolol for quite a while. I either break the pill in half or take it before I go to bed. I worked every angle I could find to get the SVT to stop (numerous times a week) in the end the Ablations fixed the problem.

 

[surfsparky]

Hey Stitch, thanks for your response. It was great to hear from another "Rosser"!
Well I finally decided to go on to the antenolol, after trying some more conservative methods over the lst couple of months. I haven't had any adverse side effects and my arrythmia has completely stopped. Now I'm hoping that the cardio will tell me at my next appointment that I can resume surfing!
Gemma, how's Jim going? Any success with trying to stop the ectopic beats/ arrythmia?
Regards, Chris

 

[Gemma]

Hi Chris,
Glad you got your arrhythmia under control. Sounds like there shouldn't be any reason you can't go back to surfing .
Jim's going to find out his blood test results (finally) on Monday when he goes for his flu ***, but we're not expecting much light-shedding from them. Still having ectopic beats every night, unless as I said before he does some extreme exercise during the day. Just isn't possible to walk up a mountain every day or go for a 3 hour bike ride unfortunately!!
I have a theory... since January when he was hospitalised over night with SVT, and prescribed sotalol, Jim's had about 3 occasions where he's said his heartbeat has increased for a few beats, and felt the same as when the SVT started. My theory is that on those 3 occasions (about 30 seconds in total, at the most), the sotalol has kept his heart in sinus rhythm, but the rest of the time (8 1/2 months minus 30 seconds ) all it's doing is slowing him down and possibly causing the ectopic beats at night. Well, I'm pretty convinced the nighttime ectopics are a result of the slow heartrate, as when he moves and his HR increases even a few beats, it goes regular again. Whether we'll be able to convince the cardio of that of course is a totally different matter.
It has been suggested by the rehab nurses that the sotalol could be working too well and atenolol would be better, but Jim's GP won't change his meds without the cardio's say-so. Of course he won't ask the cardio either . I have also read that some arrhythmias which only occur occasionally (paroxysmal SVT, etc) can be treated by just taking a pill when the arrhythmia starts up, rather than taking drugs continually... Jim's going to TRY to find out what exact type he had, although I think his GP's being a bit hazy on details, to try to ascertain whether he may be a candidate for that type of treatment.
I've reached the point where I'm trying to not think about it much until we see the cardio again on Nov 2nd. Obviously nothing we can do about it until we're face-to-face with him again.
I'll keep you posted though.
Gemma.

 

[Debrinha GT]

Living and learning!

Living and learning!

What an interesting topic this is! Just in time for me to ask my surgeon since I'll be seeing him next Friday. The thing about chocolate does make a lot of sense to me because I've eaten plenty of it for a while. Yet I wonder, how can it be good and bad for arrhythmias at the same time? How do we know how much of it we can eat? If a person is tested for magnesium and is getting enough of it, should he or she still take supplements? And regarding the calcification process of a tissue valve, can it speed things up, if you get what I mean?I hope to hear from you and if you have any additional comments to make, feel free. Thanks,

Débora