Dental clean after Valve Replacement

[cldlhd]

They use terms like 'guidelines' and 'recommendations' so that if things go wrong they can turn around and say 'it was ultimately up to the clinician'. It's a status symbol to these arseholes to get on these committees, because it means they're 'eminent' in their field. In this case, I don't think they'd have the balls to refrain from antibiotics, if their own welfare was on the line. Coward's work. There are people like that everywhere. For NICE to say it's a consensus is an outright lie, unless of course they meant it was a consensus amongst the people that formed the committee.

This is true. It's why at work I write things up using phrases like " it appears to be" or " I believe" . No commitment.

 

[Agian]

.... But you don't demand your opinion be treated like holy scripture, because some petty bureaucrat thinks you're important enough to sit around a table and churn out some bullshit document. We're talking about national health guidelines, based on the opinions of a small group of people.

I talk **** for free. I don't expect people's taxes to pay for it.

 

[cldlhd]

.... But you don't demand your opinion be treated like holy scripture, because some petty bureaucrat thinks you're important enough to sit around a table and churn out some bullshit document. We're talking about national health guidelines, based on the opinions of a small group of people.

I talk **** for free. I don't expect people's taxes to pay for it.

No not at all. I only do it at work because there are a couple people who like to crucify you if you're wrong so if you put it in writing it's best to be intentionally vague. Actually at this place you're better off playing stupid and not having your opinion count at all.

 

[dick0236]

Dental antibiotics are very cheap insurance.....but, like most things, it's your choice. For the first twentyfive years after my surgery there where no guidelines suggesting dental antibiotics and I never took them and had no problem......for the last twentyfive years I've taken antibiotics and I've had no problem. I prefer, and my dentist agrees, continuing antibiotics before invasive dental work is a smart idea.

 

[Agian]

And I bet the people who like to 'crucify' you are a waste of space. You're better off playing stupid, so you're not seen as a threat.

 

[cldlhd]

And I bet the people who like to 'crucify' you are a waste of space. You're better off playing stupid, so you're not seen as a threat.

They are petty bureaucrats,, on a local level. We have one guy who is the absolute best at everything he's ever done and likes to reinforce that belief by shitting on others. I just laugh at him. Humor and satire are often the best weapons,

 

[pellicle]

Hey Dick

... For the first twentyfive years after my surgery there where no guidelines suggesting dental antibiotics and I never took them and had no problem......for the last twentyfive years I've taken antibiotics and I've had no problem. I prefer, and my dentist agrees, continuing antibiotics before invasive dental work is a smart idea.

I think that (like yourself) when I had my first OHS it was over 40 years ago and so little was known as so little experience had been had. Over time observations were made (probably due to deaths or acute endo) and "ahhh ..." moments occurred outside of the specific plumbing operations required for OHS.

Like you noone even mentioned it when I was a kid nor even when I was 28 (that I recall). It wasn't till a few years later when I changed my dentist from an old guy I'd gone to since youth to a new younger guy that he freaked out mid procedure when he observed my scar that he drove me to the pharmacy right after we'd finished to make sure I got and took antibiotics. He was quite adamant about it.

Since then my experience has broadened to outside of my own and I learned more from others and other Drs at my checkup times that perhaps I'd been lucky, that perhaps having a Homograft (noted for lower rates of endo) had saved me.

None the less after winning at craps for decades I have no intentions of shooting again and have walked away from the casino with my winnings.

I just hope that threads like this bring awareness to even the causal guest browsers an perhaps saves someone from death or worse. While the subject comes up now and then I think its good to bring it up now and then because it gets buried in the mounds of other conversations and obscured.

 

[cldlhd]

My uncle had dental surgery and very soon after died from an infection in his brain that they said was a direct result of the surgery. The idea of either have healthy teeth or a healthy heart doesn't seem like advice I want to follow. I try to keep my teeth clean on a daily basis then get them cleaned every 6 months with as little bloodshed as possible AND while on antibiotics. My dentist is aware of my surgery ,agrees with the antibiotic use and I avoid the dental hygenist that reminds me of Sir Lawrence Olivier in 'The Marathon Man' with her technique.

 

[pellicle]

... and I avoid the dental hygenist that reminds me of Sir Lawrence Olivier in 'The Marathon Man' with her technique.

but they'll offer Oil of Cloves to numb the pain (for a few minutes).

Gosh I'd not thought about that movie for years.

 

[cldlhd]

but they'll offer Oil of Cloves to numb the pain (for a few minutes).

Gosh I'd not thought about that movie for years.

Ya I saw that when I was a kid. It was on TV one night and the old man was watching it. I guess that scene left an impression on my young mind.

 

[charlieecho]

I'm no expert and am not a big fan of taking antibiotics just because a doctor tells me (I'm in the USA). AB are so overused here it is sickening. I for one choose not to take antibiotics before my cleanings because I really feel like the research is not there. It's a very blanket statement. Meaning I see a need for some and I don't for others. If you are a somewhat healthy individual and have good dental hygiene then I really see a lack of support for antibiotic use for those of us with mechanical valves. I'm not here to argue those who do and I'm glad that I have a choice. I personally believe that antibiotics are not good for the body unless they are truly needed. I could go on for days but I think most get the point I'm trying to make. The choice is always yours and always do your homework while getting multiple professional opinions (and not all in the medical field I.e. holistic approaches as well).

 

[cldlhd]

I'm no expert and am not a big fan of taking antibiotics just because a doctor tells me (I'm in the USA). AB are so overused here it is sickening. I for one choose not to take antibiotics before my cleanings because I really feel like the research is not there. It's a very blanket statement. Meaning I see a need for some and I don't for others. If you are a somewhat healthy individual and have good dental hygiene then I really see a lack of support for antibiotic use for those of us with mechanical valves. I'm not here to argue those who do and I'm glad that I have a choice. I personally believe that antibiotics are not good for the body unless they are truly needed. I could go on for days but I think most get the point I'm trying to make. The choice is always yours and always do your homework while getting multiple professional opinions (and not all in the medical field I.e. holistic approaches as well).

I see your point but I think there's a difference between a one time dose and being put on them permanently for no good reason or if you have a sniffle.

 

[charlieecho]

I see your point but I think there's a difference between a one time dose and being put on them permanently for no good reason or if you have a sniffle.

A one time dose every 6 months you mean ? I'm not necessarily arguing the fact you should or shouldn't take them before a regular cleaning but it's worth researching on how long it takes your gut to recover after a round of antibiotics saying that it doesn't leave permanent damage.

 

[cldlhd]

I drink some of that probiotic stuff now and then but ,,and this is just my personal feeling, I' rather risk my gut flora a bit rather than risk endocarditis.

 

[pellicle]

I'm not necessarily arguing the fact you should or shouldn't take them before a regular cleaning but it's worth researching on how long it takes your gut to recover after a round of antibiotics saying that it doesn't leave permanent damage.

Have you ever found any evidence (not including from sites which sell probiotic yoghurt or health food shops) that a dose of antibiotics does permananent damage to your gut flora? I haven't.

be cautious which "things you read" you give credence to.

Anyway, to my mind two points are key:

• the primary issue that NICE seems to have against antibiotics are for those people who didn't know they were allergic and are harmed in some way by that
• especially in the case where your valve has not fully endotheliased (covered with your living cells) there is then a place for bacteria to attach to and make a home (giving you endo)

of course its not deterministic in advance who. If I gave you a revolver and said there was only one bullet would you play russian roulette with it? I mean there is a 5 / 6 chance that you won't hear anything more than a click.

I'm a big fan of holistic, but to me holistic means the incorporation of more sciences into the diagnosis, not the typical highly specialised application of distinct and non interrelated sciences.

A problem that medicine is currently working towards solving is to bring interdisciplinary to reality ... because the past has been isolated specialised silos of knowledge.

 

[charlieecho]

Have you ever found any evidence (not including from sites which sell probiotic yoghurt or health food shops) that a dose of antibiotics does permananent damage to your gut flora? I haven't.

be cautious which "things you read" you give credence to.

Anyway, to my mind two points are key:

• the primary issue that NICE seems to have against antibiotics are for those people who didn't know they were allergic and are harmed in some way by that
• especially in the case where your valve has not fully endotheliased (covered with your living cells) there is then a place for bacteria to attach to and make a home (giving you endo)

of course its not deterministic in advance who. If I gave you a revolver and said there was only one bullet would you play russian roulette with it? I mean there is a 5 / 6 chance that you won't hear anything more than a click.

I'm a big fan of holistic, but to me holistic means the incorporation of more sciences into the diagnosis, not the typical highly specialised application of distinct and non interrelated sciences.

A problem that medicine is currently working towards solving is to bring interdisciplinary to reality ... because the past has been isolated specialised silos of knowledge.

Have you ever found any evidence that says you do not suffer from permanent damage from one time use (even though in this sense I was talking about taking them every 6 months as the other person was quoting and it's not a site pushed by big pharm) so let's call it twice a year right ?

I think equally we have to be careful just because the FDA or the Mayo clinic calls it safe it should be in our best interest to always explore all options and make the most educated choices based off of knowledge we obtain from these studies and from medical professionals.

Once again, I'm not trying to say that it does cause permanent damage but do we really know that it doesnt ?
There is plenty of quick Google searches that seem to support both sides (yes, even outside of the holistic sites trying to sell you a probiotic).

Once again I truly believe it's situational with each individual person and it's currently a very blanket statement to say every heart patient needs an antibiotic before a cleaning. Question your doctors, your dentist, your chiropractor, and make them tell you why you should or should not take it.

 

[pellicle]

Have you ever found any evidence that says you do not suffer from permanent damage from one time use (even though in this sense I was talking about taking them every 6 months as the other person was quoting and it's not a site pushed by big pharm) so let's call it twice a year right ?

Sorry, I wasn't clear ... a one time use every six months / half year is what I meant. As distinct from a course of antibiotics 3 times daily for months at a time ... indeed I've been on antibiotics 500mg 3 times daily for the last 4 years and my poo is still fine and my gut flora (if the smell and appearance of my **** is anthing to go by) returned to normal in weeks of being on them.

To answer your question plenty ... there are some studies which suggest that there is an effect in the short term, and some to suggest some bacteria are effected long term. For instance

http://www.microbiologyresearch.org/...F5F8573FD43F98

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0109081145.htm

[FONT=&quot]Changes in gut bacteria[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The biodiversity of the bacteria that form the gut microbiota, according to the results, decreases during the treatment to the point of reaching its minimum 11 days after the beginning. However, at the end of the treatment, the situation is reversed and the patient presents a bacterial population similar to the first.[/FONT]

my underline

I think one needs to be prudent in the analysis of the actual contribution towards creating super bugs by over use of antibiotics and balance that against the facts that:
* we are only talking about a tiny fraction of the population who are at risk and thus taking them
* the fantasticly large amount (tonnes of it in fact) regularly used in animal feed for agriculture (this one is the elephant in the room)


Still, I'm keen to read your studies which show permanent damage ... of course each to their own. I myself would prefer to have some slight alteration to my gut flora (which seems to be harmless in my instance) over endo.

Once again I truly believe it's situational with each individual person and it's currently a very blanket statement to say every heart patient needs an antibiotic before a cleaning. Question your doctors, your dentist, your chiropractor, and make them tell you why you should or should not take it.

agreed ... but also know enough to know that you don't understand the answers and if you don't understand the answer then either educate yourself further or eventually trust the experts

Science works and we are all here because it does. I recommend you read up on the topics in reliable Peer Reviewd Journals not natural news dot com or blogs by people selling something. If New Age medicine was so great we'd all be attending New Age heart clinics and all this OHS wouldn't be needed ...

 

[Agian]

Mass murder of gut bacteria. Slay the beasts.

 

[cldlhd]

endotheliased (covered with your living cells) there is then a place for bacteria to attach to and make a home (giving you endo)
Is there a way of knowing if it's been fully covered by your endothelial cells post surgery?

 

[pellicle]

endotheliased (covered with your living cells) there is then a place for bacteria to attach to and make a home (giving you endo)
Is there a way of knowing if it's been fully covered by your endothelial cells post surgery?

Not that I know of