Argh! Why can't anything ever be easy?

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gijanet

Well-known member
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
1,767
Location
Arlington, Tx.
:( I do not know where to post this, so will start here. The dental saga continues………..AND we will be adding a hospital visit - hopefully, outpatient. If you don't have time for my rhetoric (as some people accuse me of being long-winded, then please skip down to my questions).

Katie had her pediatric dental consult today. The pediatric dentist she was supposed to see was performing oral surgery at the hospital (don’t even get me started on that one…….if it was an emergency, fine! If it was pre-scheduled…………….grrrrr! :mad: ), so a very young (26) associate dentist saw her. I’ll spare you the drama, but she confirmed that Katie does indeed have a huge cavity that will have to be addressed, and yes, she will have to be put under to do it, so they want to do it at Cook Children’s hospital…………….sigh! The dentist who will perform the procedure was the one who was doing oral surgery, so we got virtually no information today other than.........yep! It's a huge cavity..........duh! He’s supposed to get with Katie’s PC and the hospital’s anesthesiology department and get back to us in a few days, which I’m sure means sometime next week. IN the meantime, my mind is racing. :confused:

I know the fact that Katie is on coumadin should be a non-issue in this. It’s a filling for gosh sakes! However, since Katie had such severe arrhythmia problems (heart was in JET for many days) and developed heparin-induced thrombocytopenia after her last surgery(ies), putting her under becomes more complicated. As usual, I want to be armed with information, so when the dentist calls, I can interrogate him properly. I am hoping some of you can help. I am new to both arrythmias and HIT, and know just enough to know that I don’t know diddly squat. We have never had to worry about these issues before.

1st) Can just being under anesthesia bring on or back arrhythmia problems? Katie is NOT having arrhythmia problems now and has not had any since she finally got back into sinus rhythm several days post-surgery. But is she at higher risk now?

2nd) How is anesthesia administered? I know IV. Duh! But what kind of solution is it administered in? Hopefully, not heparin. If so, is there an alternative solution? Could it be administered with saline? We know we will have to use saline flushes, instead of heparin………although that was a constant battle in Michigan as I am sure some of you will remember……….. I wouldn't think we would have to do argatroban as she is not being taken off of her coumadin ( at least common sense says she wouldn't be).

I know these probably sound like dumb questions to some, but I would rather display my ignorance to y’all and sound knowledgeable next week when the dentist calls.

So the dental saga continues……………sigh! Katie’s gag reflex is so strong, she almost threw up in the dentist’s office when they tried to take x-rays, so we didn’t even get those. Guess we will do those, fill the cavity, and clean her teeth…………..all at the hospital………………..geez! Just what I needed was another hospital bill………………another sigh! Thanks for any insight or input you can provide. Many hugs. J.
 
Hi Janet...


I shall start the answers rolling with a hug and sympathy...


I too have enormous difficulty at the ole dentists...I have found a lovely chap who gives me IV sedation now cos those needles do didly squat for me... and I have not had any dramas heart-wise that I have noticed...although I am quite a different sort of heart-patient to young Katie.

It really annoys the "*&^%" outta me too when they stuff you around on a pre-booked appointment...

here hoping she gets this cavity filled,,,what a shame to need a filling in her baby tooth is it ?

That GAG reflex of katies I know how strong they can be...I do it while brushing my teeth if i accidentally bump the back of my tounge or brush he back teeth too vigorously...lol...gets me by surprise too...

All the best for an uneventful boring trip to the dentist next week Katie and Janet!...
 
Hi Janet

Hi Janet

Hi there,
Sorry to her that the saga continues........
Just a thought with regards to the anaesthetic,have you spoken to the dentist about the possibility of Katie being put under with gas ? When Natasha had her grommets done many years ago at the age of 4 , that is what they used.
Its not like they have to have her out of things for a long time to do the filling
etc ?
Anyway,,we are all thinking of you all and sending our very best wishes
Ernie Wendy & fam.
 
Janet,

The first thing when I saw the title of your thread I said "OH NO!!!":eek: Can't help with the dental questions but I'm sure someone in the know will be here shortly. I will say a prayer for Katie, you and the rest of the family that this will turn out to be nothing to be concerned about. Just make sure EVERYONE is aware what OUR little girl has been thru and over 2600 feet will STOMP ON THEM IF THEY AIN'T CAREFUL!!!!! I got the bus warmed up.

Good luck and,

May God Bless,

Danny
 
Thank you.....

Thank you.....

aussigal said:
I shall start the answers rolling with a hug and sympathy...!...

I definitely appreciate those................:D Thanks.

aussigal said:
here hoping she gets this cavity filled,,,what a shame to need a filling in her baby tooth is it ? !...
Yes, it is a baby tooth. That's what I thought, too..........all this for a baby tooth, and Katie claims it doesn't even hurt, but she has a pretty high pain tolerance. My dentist who saw her first, though, felt that the there is so much decay that she is at greater risk of endocarditis. Definitely don't need that


aussigal said:
All the best for an uneventful boring trip to the dentist next week Katie and Janet!...
Thank you again so much. Hugs. J.
 
Thanks, Wendy..........

Thanks, Wendy..........

WendyD said:
Hi there,
Sorry to her that the saga continues........
Just a thought with regards to the anaesthetic,have you spoken to the dentist about the possibility of Katie being put under with gas ? When Natasha had her grommets done many years ago at the age of 4 , that is what they used.
Its not like they have to have her out of things for a long time to do the filling
etc ?
Anyway,,we are all thinking of you all and sending our very best wishes
Ernie Wendy & fam.

Ya know, I was wondering the same thing.........well, sorta, it popped into my head at one point and got lost in the grand canyon up there somewhere........:D I'm definitely old enough to remember being gassed myself.........not the same as having gas, that's for sure. :D

Did it put Natasha out, though? I don't remember ever being completely out of it. I don't know if gas would be enough to keep Katie still through the procedure. I guess it is some sort of post-traumatic stress thing, but since her surgery, she does not want anyone - in a labcoat or anything else - messing with her. Don said they could barely get a look in her mouth today, and you know my "Fun and Games at the Dentist's" adventure...........sigh!

Let me know when you get a chance. Thanks and hugs. Love ya. J. P.S.. Not to hijack my own thead, but when are you gonna update us on Ernie? Hint, hint!
 
Sorry, Danny!

Sorry, Danny!

gadgetman said:
Janet,

The first thing when I saw the title of your thread I said "OH NO!!!":eek: Can't help with the dental questions but I'm sure someone in the know will be here shortly. I will say a prayer for Katie, you and the rest of the family that this will turn out to be nothing to be concerned about. Just make sure EVERYONE is aware what OUR little girl has been thru and over 2600 feet will STOMP ON THEM IF THEY AIN'T CAREFUL!!!!! I got the bus warmed up.

Good luck and,May God Bless,

Danny

Didn't mean to scare you........it's just sometimes I get so frustrated - and scared.............this should be an easy thing. Kid has a cavity. Ya go to the dentist and get it filled, right? WRONG! At least in our case. What was your definition of normal again?

And you bet I will let them know. THat's why I'm trying to build my arsenal now. Got to keep her in shape for her e-bay auction. :D Problem is nobody around here in the pediatric world knows much about HIT as they just don't encounter it. And how many ped dentists have to worry about arrythmias in their patients?

Anyway, I do appreciate the good thoughts and your concern. I really needed a laugh tonight, and the mental picture of you loading up that bus did the trick. Many hugs. J.
 
Hi Janet,
Natasha was out completely while the grommets were being done, and she had them done 3 times over a period of a few years as she grew,
The procedure wasnt too long if I remember correctly, it was a long time ago,
(the dry rot & memory loss is gradually taking over , with the grey hairs !!!! )
Pester the dentist to explore all the anaesthesia options.Tell him there is an whakko woman in NZ that will stalk him if he doesn't !!!!
All the best and lots of hugs ((((( )))))
Wendy
 
Hey - if things were easy we might never hear from you.;) :D ;)

When I had my ER visit last month, they put in a IV line. It was flushed with saline. The nurse said they don't use heparin to flush IV lines unless they are in very long term so you should be OK if Katie needs a line.

I agree that maybe gas is the answer. Even nitrous oxide might be enough to get the job done and it has never had an effect on my heart rate (and I am very sensitive).

If Katie needs a local for numbing, be sure and tell the dentist not to use the kind with epenephrine. That really messes up my heart rate. Dentists like to use it because it lasts longer.

Hope things go easy. I am a major dental problem patient as I get panicky with tubes and stuff in my mouth. I think it brings back breathing tube memories and I freak out.
 
When our younger son, Dave, was six he also had a huge cavity along with "dental fear issues." We were also hustled to the pediatric dentist. He was given a little cup of grape juice laced with demerol and some laughing gas to top it off. He was never unconscious, just a little woozy and feeling no pain. It did not seem like too big a deal at the time, and he was feeling completely normal after the (fairly quick) filling. Here's to your experience being just as easy! Good luck, little sweetheart!!
 
When I went under general anesthesia for wisdom teeth extraction last November, one concern my dentist had with the anesthesia was that it could induce or aggravate arrhythmia for someone who has it. The procedure lasted for about 40 minutes (all 4 teeth had to come out?), and I didn?t have problems. But as everyone has already said, if Katie could get the procedure with just gas, that?s probably for the better. Hope things work out well for all of you:)
 
I was also thinking of conscious sedation

I was also thinking of conscious sedation

My child's dentist also works with individuals with special needs, so when my neighbor's child needed a tooth filled they went to him. He used conscious sedation so that while the child was not active, he was not asleep.

Better still, come out and use our dentist - he's excellent, easy on the eyes, and right across from Children's Hospital so you all would feel secure. It was 80 degrees here in San Diego today and I have 3 couches, a futon, and twin bed unused. Katie and I can compare scars :)

Kristi
mitral repair 11/30/0
 
Thank you all so much ...........

Thank you all so much ...........

for your input, your anecdotes, your experiences, your good wishes and your prayers. Thanks, too, for the laughs. (Kristi, our insurance company won't pay travel expenses to Michigan for Katie's heart surgeries. I am just envisioning the response to our request that they pay travel expenses to California........... for a filling! heehee! :D 'Course knowing that insurance companies do not apply common sense when considering payment, they just might approve it! Besides you are still recovering yourself. Even if she IS sedated, you are not ready for Katie!)

Wendy, WHAT is a grommet? I have been dying to ask. I keep thinking of Wallace and Grommet..........those animated cartoon characters. Grommet is the dog..............heehee!:D

Yes, Gina, but I would like to post far fewer battle cries for help!

Okay, now serious stuff. I am to read into all of this so far that anesthesia does pose a risk of arrythmias, albeit a minor one due to the short time she should be under????

I will ask about the gas.

Gina, when you mention a local for numbing, does that mean a shot or ??? Appreciate the info on the saline. As we have never had short term IVs, sad to say, I was unaware that heparin was only used on long term IVs.

I have more questions, but my mind is too befuddled tonight to work properly, so will ask tomorrow. In the meantime, thank you all so very, very much. Many hugs.J.
 
I'm confused Gina.

WHY exactly is anasthesia being proposed for a FILLING?
Is it simply because of emotional / anxiety / uncooperativeness issues or is there some medical reason?

Anyone with arrhythmias definitely needs to avoid epenephrine which is used in most local anesthetics. I found that I have NO reaction to CARBOCAINE. The downside of Carbocaine is that it does not last as long and may require 'refreshing' during a long procedure.

IF the reason for anesthesia is emotional / anxiety / stubbornness, why can't they use "conscious sedation" (VERSED along with Demerol for pain relief) which is the typical protocol for GI procedures and Heart Catheterizations? Yes, these drugs are administered through an IV.

Good Luck,

'AL Capshaw'
 
Hmmm...

I am wondering if they won't do the local w/sedation because little kids desaturate their oxygen very fast, and when they are sedated, they very often sleep hard, and it is necessary to give continual puffs with the ambu bag and oxygen, with their head and jaw held back. This would probably get in the way with what the doc needs to be doing. But I have never been on a dental case with a child, just ENT cases, tonsils and such, so I am not sure how they handle teeth.

Make sure you tell the anesthesia dept all of these concerns with heparin.
 
Al

Al

ALCapshaw2 said:
I'm confused Gina.

WHY exactly is anasthesia being proposed for a FILLING?
Is it simply because of emotional / anxiety / uncooperativeness issues or is there some medical reason?

Anyone with arrhythmias definitely needs to avoid epenephrine which is used in most local anesthetics. I found that I have NO reaction to CARBOCAINE. The downside of Carbocaine is that it does not last as long and may require 'refreshing' during a long procedure.

IF the reason for anesthesia is emotional / anxiety / stubbornness, why can't they use "conscious sedation" (VERSED along with Demerol for pain relief) which is the typical protocol for GI procedures and Heart Catheterizations? Yes, these drugs are administered through an IV.

Good Luck,
'AL Capshaw'

Yep, it's the emotional/traumatic reason. Katie is just too traumatized to sit there and let them do anything to her. I think the strong gag reflex has a lot to do with it as she will sit through echoes and ekgs now. Katie has a strong immunity to versed as one echo tech and RN found out when she was younger..............but that's another long saga.........

What's Carbocain? Is it IV admininstered? Tell me more please. Hugs. JANET
 
sounds like........

sounds like........

Natanni said:
Hmmm...

I am wondering if they won't do the local w/sedation because little kids desaturate their oxygen very fast, and when they are sedated, they very often sleep hard, and it is necessary to give continual puffs with the ambu bag and oxygen, with their head and jaw held back. This would probably get in the way with what the doc needs to be doing. But I have never been on a dental case with a child, just ENT cases, tonsils and such, so I am not sure how they handle teeth.

Make sure you tell the anesthesia dept all of these concerns with heparin.

good rationale to me. Thanks for your input. Many hugs. J.
 
How great is the risk of endocarditis?

How great is the risk of endocarditis?

Well, if anyone is still checking this..............:D

The dental office called to say that they were prescribing amoxicillin for Katie and she is to stay on it until the cavity is taken care of. They do not want to risk an abcess. How great is our risk of endocarditis right now? :eek: And, yes, we are taking it.

She was also prescribed tylenol with codeine, but we haven't given it to her as we want to clear it through her PC first. As all of this came about Friday, we haven't had the opportunity to do that. Does anyone know of any risks associated with codeine?

Last, some people have e-mailed me and asked why don't we just get this tooth pulled? I was kind of wondering the same thing. But this tooth is middle lower left and I don't expect a replacement tooth would come in for quite some time. Would this place us at greater risk of endocarditis, especiallly since Katie will take longer to heal on the coumadin (I'm assuming????) :confused:

Any more thoughts out there. Will work on trying to get some answers this week, but your input is valued. Much love. J.
 
Janet,

The local I was referring to is an injection into the gum near where the tooth is located.
Can't answer about the codeine as I am allergic to it.
The amoxicillin is probably a good idea since a cavity is a hole that could build up bacteria. However, I think short term, the risk of endocarditis is small. I could be wrong but there's been a couple of times when I had a tooth infection without taking antibiotics (because I didn't know about the infection) and haven't contracted endocarditis.


Al,

I always have anesthetic for fillings. I am not brave and my teeth are way too sensitive to try and do a filling without numbing. Carbocaine does ring a bell as to what my dentist uses, I just couldn't remember the name. And, you are right, it never lasts as long as whatever procedure is being done.:mad: :mad: :rolleyes:
 
Yes, but............

Yes, but............

geebee said:
Janet,

The local I was referring to is an injection into the gum near where the tooth is located.
Can't answer about the codeine as I am allergic to it.
The amoxicillin is probably a good idea since a cavity is a hole that could build up bacteria. However, I think short term, the risk of endocarditis is small. I could be wrong but there's been a couple of times when I had a tooth infection without taking antibiotics (because I didn't know about the infection) and haven't contracted endocarditis.

:
to do a local, they would have to hogtie her to the chair..............dunno!Thanks so much for the info, though, Gina.

I am so frustrated.............trying to hand the reins over to Don since he is leading the life of leisure........for another week anyway, til he starts school. Anyway, we have yet to hear a gameplan. We have left messages since last Friday with Katie's new PC and she has yet to return our calls...............grrrr! Oh, how I miss Dr. Wienecke. He ALWAYS returned my calls...........even if it meant calling me at 6:30 in the evening from his cell as he was driving home................sigh!

Anyway, we did get an estimated bill from the dentist in the mail. We have yet to meet with him face-to-face, but we get his bill!!! He is NOT ranking very high in my book so far. His part will be $500 with our dental insurance discount..............and that doesn't include any of the hospital bills or the anesthesiologist's bill................sigh! I can't believe we get an estimated cost when we can't even get anyone to give us the gameplan or answer my very long list of questions. I'm gonna really start PMSing here................and it ain't even that time of the month............grrrr!

Many hugs. J.
 
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