Apatitic Calcification - What I Think

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tobagotwo

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My belief is that most of the time, people get catastrophic endocarditis when they have a naturally weakened immune system, or when their immune system is battling something else, or just when rotten luck allows an entrepreneurial bacterium to colonize on some serendipitous backwater by the valve.

However, I think that people get valve-adjacent endocarditis, or at least the start of it, much more often than we think.

We are all often subjected to bacteremia (bacteria loose in the bloodstream), probably much more often from eating mishaps than from dental procedures. And there are bacteria from various cuts, scrapes and other everyday physical damages. While the blood is a relatively sterile environment at best, the body generally handles these incursions quite well, when we are healthy and active. After all, we're adapted to many of life's vicissitudes. But should we have a slight abnormality in the flow around a valve, or an infected gumline, throat, or other area that becomes a constant source of bacterial flow, we raise our chances of infections at internal sites, particularly in the heart or the bones.

I believe that most "senile" valve calcification (and maybe much of the other types) is caused by prior infection sites, where the body has successfully battled the infecting bacterium or virus, but has left scarred epithelium (skin) in its wake that attracts calcium, phosphorus, and the other building blocks of apatite (cardiolytic apatite, as the phrase was coined). Secondarily, consistently irritated spots, especially associated with damaged or bicuspid valves, can serve as the host site, as the epithelium is damaged there, as well.

This explanation makes so much sense to me, that I am at a loss to determine why I've never read it stated that way elsewhere. The closest I've seen is the theory that the damaged valve leaflets themselves attract the chemicals. Yet the bulk of the apatitic growth is at the base of the valve, and only later does it coat the damaged leaflets. Perhaps doctors are reluctant to believe that we can recover from any form of endocarditis without actual hospitalization, or they underestimate the value that effective antibiotics can bring in allowing us to recover unknowingly from these deep, internal infections.

Most of us won't ever face catastrophic endocarditis, where the valve needs to be replaced immediately from the infection. Some few of us on the site have truly faced it, and live with its aftermath (I have not). However, I believe many of us have had a close cousin to it, or a start to it that the body managed to snuff out early. Then we recovered, with collateral damage being the slow accumulation of protective calcific sheathing on the wound site.

One attempt to prove this would be to see if the number of calcified valves has increased since the advent of antibiotics. If these drugs are letting us live after these infections, then the later effects (calcification) would appear more often, as the hosts would not have died from the original disease state.

I haven't had time to pursue a proof for this yet, but I will eventually give it a try.

Best wishes,
 
That is interesting.

I had a bicuspid aortic valve, and mine needed to be replaced when I was 22yo. I know a lot of people have bicuspid valves that last a lot longer than that.

I also had a lot of ear infections as a child and had antibiotics for these. Perhaps the two are related?
 
I think what you have said makes a lot of sense. We can easily see the major things that the body has to battle, and see how healing takes place because we have to seek help for them. I agree with you that there are minor battles which are won and healed that we do not to seek help for because the symptoms are fleeting or non-existent.

That these little areas of healed collateral damage could be the root of many things is pretty plausible.

I wonder how many people here have had the experience of "incidental" findings when getting a report from a CAT scan or MRI, or even an ordinary x-ray.

I know that Joe did, and they were things that he never knew about that his body had dealt with and healed. Had he lived longer, might these damaged and healed areas have given him trouble, perhaps. One that I can think of was the discovery of multiple areas of infarction in his spleen. He was symptomatic for one, but there were others in various stages of healing. Would the healing areas go on to cause splenic problems at a later time, perhaps.

He also had some nodules in the mediastinal area discovered in an incidental way. These were never diagnosed, since he passed away before that could happen.

I think there is a lot more going on in the body day to day than we would ever dream of. And the body deals with them.
 
Sometimes I wonder if my valve becoming stenotic wasn't due so much to the fact that it was a bicuspid but more so to the several, severe illnesses I had as a child.

I was also subjected to (probably) high amounts of radiation. As the child of a doctor, who had easy access to the x-ray machine, I was checked frequently for TB.

And thirty years ago I had a very serious illness that I now believe was probably a moderate case of endocarditis. We hadn't been married long enough to afford medical insurance, and for three weeks I fought an unknown illness before consulting a doctor. He wasn't a very good doctor, but did prescribe a regiment of antibiotics that after a month of use, did bring me some relief.

So, I believe you're probably right, Tobago.

I will remember this post when someone in the medical field tries to lay claim to your theory. I'll write them and tell them to give credit where credit is due.:cool:
And I will keep my eyes peeled for any claims that might appear in a self-published book about valve replacement!;) :p :p
 
One point of clarification. The vast majority of endocarditis is caused by bacteria that live in the mouth, so that cuts, scrapes, etc, aren't necessarily feeding grounds for the bacteria that cause endocarditis. They can probably cause lots of other problems, but not every type of bacteremia causes endocarditis. For example, you could have necrotizing fasciitis - the flesh eating bacteria - and not get endocarditis.

If you are indeed experiencing bacteremia from one of the bacteria that causes endocarditis, and are treated with an broad spectrum antibiotic, the antibiotic you receive wouldn't necessarily knock out the bug. For instance, I was treated with antibiotics and still ended up with endocarditis because the antibiotic used wasn't effective on the bug causing my endocarditis. Also, it was the floppiness of my valve (mitral regurge) that caused the abnormal blood flow through the valve and trapped the bacteria there, causing the vegetation. My understanding is that normal people, with a normal valve, would have been able to have rid themselves of the bacteremia, because it wasn't getting trapped on an abnormally moving valve. In my case, it was the abnormality of the valve that caused the bacteria to say "hold up, I think we found a good home here."

So, yes, in theory, you could get and heal from bacterial endocarditis, damage your valve, and not know about it. But I, personally, without having done a smidgen of research, think this is highly unlikely, for the two reasons named above - you would have to either naturally overcome the infection (which many people can do if their valves are normal), or, if your valve isn't normal, you would need exactly the right antibiotic to treat the type of infection building up on your valve.
 
interesting theory

interesting theory

Hi all! It's been a while.

I believe it's possible that many infections (including viral infections in addition to bacterial) may weaken the heart, other than the ones we know about. I certainly cannot prove it. I generally push myself to the limit in many ways but I do know that whenever I get a cold, my heart rate goes up and I feel out of breath and have chest pain. I've been carrying around my own little theory that these "colds" somehow harm my heart, especially when a sore throat is involved. I had a real bad one two years ago that had me thinking my heart was failing again. (e.g., my HR was up about 20 beats/min through the illness (3 weeks) and I could barely get around). Have any of you who have had repairs experienced this also? Or am I, as my wife maintains, a crazy man.
 
The bacteria that cause endocarditis are not so much confined to the mouth. That's only the most often discussed source. The gums are only one source for bacteria that get into the blood, and only a few of the bacteria involved are only commonly found in the mouth. Most can be found in many places from a variety of causes. Strep throats are a common cause, and repetitive sinus infections as well. Bacterial introductions from colonoscopies, surgeries, other medical procedures, and yes, cuts and scrapes are others.

The fact that even an uninocculated person won't get tetanus every time he cuts himself doesn't mean that other germs don't get into the bloodstream from the skin break. Instead, the fact that he can get tetanus shows that germs can and do get into the bloodstream by that route.

After all, white blood cells are exactly that - blood cells - and they are in the blood for this very reason. They flow to wounds as neutrofils, monocytes (and after some changes, macrophages) to poison and/or engulf bacterial invaders and stimulate lymph and other immune system defenses to come to the area.

The myxomatous nature of your valve would not only cause a backwater that could encourage infection, but also probably had created an irritated area of less defensible epithelium to allow it to take a more determined hold. This is in line with what's stated in the original thread starter. In your case, the recovery wasn't fast enough to avoid catastophic damage to the valve, which is also mentioned in the thread starter, but not as senile calcification. It doesn't conflict with the thesis.

And consider: as you are alive now, I assume they did find an appropriate antibiotic for your infection, albeit too late. Had the order of antibiotics tried been different, or had another type of antibiotic been used in the beginning, the story might have been different. You might have gotten over the infection before it became bad enough to be recognized for what it was. Then there would have been the conditions for the slower calcific development that would have been similar to senile calcification, rather than the rapid deterioration of bacterial damage.

It's even possible that you may have already had an earlier recovered - and undiscovered - bout of beginning endocarditis in that same spot, which would have made the speed and severity of the calamitous infection you suffered even more understandable.

To say that a person with a normal valve would not have gotten the infection is a gross simplification on the doctor's part. Many people who have developed endocarditis had apparently normal valves to begin with. A known problem raises the risk potential, previous infection even moreso, but a risk does exist for everyone, regardless.

This also speaks to "normal." As we are such variable creations, there is no reason an apparently "normal" valve might not have a minute area of turbulence that might show up as a very minor murmur as a child (I had one - they always counsel that "he'll grow out of it"). Or maybe the turbulence is so slight that it isn't detected at all. After all, folks have had their children tested for inherited bicuspid valves, and the positive results couldn't be determined until an echo was done. Either way, a very slightly off-perfect valve seat could easily elicit no concerned response from a physician.

Regardless, that doesn't seem to me to take away from the plausibility of what's proposed. It's proposed that in senile calcification the healing does occur, and that it's the roughened epithelium left behind that eventually does the valve in by attracting the components of bodily apatite.

Note: To Jax3172's point, this is largely about bacterial endocarditis, but I also feel that there is no reason that viruses can't do some forms of harm as well. I blame mine on a virus I had many years ago. Whether it was the virus itself, or an opportunistic bacterium that advantaged itself of it, I don't have any way of knowing.

Best wishes,
 
Bob, a very interesting thread.
I blame mine on a virus I had many years ago. Whether it was the virus itself, or an opportunistic bacterium that advantaged itself of it, I don't have any way of knowing.

Dick suffered with strep throats for many years before he had his tonsils out at the age of 31. We weren't married at the time and I don't know how many of those incidents were treated with anitbiotics, but I do not doubt that they contributed to the calcification of his (not bicuspid) valve.
 
I agree that endocarditis can be caused by bacteria being introduced into your blood in a number of ways. Mine was born from chronic bronchitis that took 2 months to "clear up". Unfortunately the antibiotics used cleared up my bronchial infection but it didn't touch the bacteria pumping through the rest of my body by that time. Next came chronic prostatitis (what a great place for bacteria to hang out). There are many different bacteria that can enter your blood stream through a number of routes. But there are a limited number of bacteria that will set up shop on/in your valve...and most of these bacteremia are either resistant to most oral antibiotics and/or the antibiotic regimen is too short to kill the bacteria. Also...and I'm not sure...but once the bacteria forms vegetation there are only a few antibiotics that will eliminate the vegetation growth, and those usually need to be administered intravenously to be effective. My doctor had gone to Cipro 750mg twice a day and that still wasn't working (this is before he---read me---finally diagnosed the endocarditis). I ended up needing Rocephin (ceftriaxone) 2gm IV daily for 7 weeks to completely wipe out the vegetation. Sometimes they may use a combination of IV antibiotics like Ancef (cefazolin) and gentamicin to attack the vegetation. But IMO once you have progressed to colonies of vegetation on your valve the chances of your body alone or oral antibiotic therapy eliminating the vegetation are fairly low.

I do however buy into the fact that a mild case of endocarditis (if there is such a thing) can go undetected and resolve on its own or with oral antibiotics. I think the major factor is what type of valve deformities the individual has. Since I had a VSD, aortic insufficency, and aortic valve prolapse which was caused by the VSD and in turn caused the AI, my valve was a perfect breeding ground for a colony of vegetation to set up shop. That's partly why I decided on the Ross Procedure. The autograft is much more resistant to endocarditis (once healed) than a prosthetic valve.
 
Well, consider the statement that...
There are many different bacteria that can enter your blood stream through a number of routes. But there are a limited number of bacteria that will set up shop on/in your valve...and most of these bacteremia are either resistant to most oral antibiotics and/or the antibiotic regimen is too short to kill the bacteria.
Almost all of the cases of endocarditis that would last long enough to be discovered would be from bacteria that are resistant to oral antibiotics. Those that were from susceptible bacteria would mostly resolve and remain undiscovered. That's what antibiotics are for. By this logic, it becomes a practical application of the Heisenberg principle, where what they are measuring is affected by the way they measure it. They find what they already expected to find, and they stop looking.

Consider how many years it's taken for science to determine that ulcers are most commonly caused by helicobacter pylori infections. They look like infections, they act like infections, yet until only a couple of decades ago, they were believed to be the result of poor eating habits or excessive nervousness instead. It's not because doctors are stupid. It's because they found that changing the acidity of the stomach and the patients' eating habits allowed the ulcers to heal. Voila: they found that their treatment validated their assumptions of cause. And they stopped looking.

Best wishes,
 
antibiotics

antibiotics

At first blush, it would appear we should be taking antibiotics prophylacticly at the least sign of a sinus infection or sore throat. It makes sense to me.

But of course, the big question would be which drugs? And, if the problem is viral, then there wouldn't be much recourse. And by the time we were tested to identify the microbe, time would have passed and damage would have been done. I don't really see a clear approach here.
 
I don't know if this fits the subject exactly...

I don't know if this fits the subject exactly...

...but here's something I keep thinking about when I have looked at this thread... It's just my personal experience but I hope it's helpful to someone...

I remember reading some medical report recently that antibiotics don't do much good for most people's sinus infections. I don't know who the researchers were studying because that's the opposite of my experience and of many I know.

That said, however, when my doctor gives me antibiotics for either a sinus infection or a bronchitis, he always has me simultaneously take something to break up the congestion so the antibiotic can do its job. It seems to make a huge difference with me.

Also, in hindsight, I believe my cardiac/valve decline accelerated about ten-twelve years ago when I had a very bad cold that became a bronchitis and I just toughed it out at home for weeks before finally dragging my very ill and feverish self in to see my doctor. He immediately ran blood cultures for endocarditis which came back negative. But I can look back to around that time, and to some other bronchitis episodes through the next couple of years, and I believe that was a turning point for me.
 
Susan, not only sinus infections, but also the type of infections that generally remain in the gums are also largely unquenchable with antibiotics. They can be brought down to controlled levels, but in gums, they really can't be entirely eliminated (that last is from my endodontist, and I have no proof for it but his say-so). However, the lack of ability to treat these is more a function of the type of tissue and place they're in than the bugs themselves. Outside of their protected environments, they're fair game for antibiotics.

Ear infections can also be problematic that way, but by far most ear infections are viral, rather than bacterial (very, very, nasty, oozy when they're bacterial - once you've seen it, you would not mistake the two). Viral infections would be involved only if they were arrested by the body's own defenses. However, the body does do a lot of that.

A blood culture for endocarditis - how would they know an infection was from the heart, if an echo isn't involved? Is there a biological tag that goes with it that helps them determine it, or is it just a culture checking for certain bacteria? (Someone here will know that.) Again, this could be looking for what they're expecting to find.

Jack, the prophylactic doses we take wouldn't be enough to do anything to an established infection, which requires repeated exposure. They've been shown to be ineffective in prevention as well. As you point out, there is no clear path.

This would be more in line with the type of antibiotics we get when a cold or flu doesn't go away, or when they suspect a secondary infection. Or just the body catching up to the infection and doing it in.


Best wishes,
 
just a quick note

just a quick note

When the doctors have done blood cultures on me, checking for endocarditis, they have always drawn blood from both arms. I guess that's supposed to give them some idea as to if the infection has possibly traveled to the heart. I don't know if there is a specific "red flag" they may look for though.

-------------------------------------------------

[Edit - I found the following information at http://adam.about.com/encyclopedia/000657sym.htm :

"Culture-negative endocarditis - Alternative Names: Endocarditis (culture-negative)

Symptoms:
Fever, extreme fatigue and breathing difficulty are common symptoms of endocarditis.

Signs and tests:
Signs of endocarditis include:
Tachycardia (fast heart rate)
Fever
A new heart murmur on cardiac exam
The following tests may be requested:
An ECG and a chest x-ray.
A complete blood count (CBC).
Blood cultures: when certain bacteria called fastidious organisms (Bartonella, Coxiella, Mycobacterium, and germs of the HACEK group) cause the endocarditis, cultures may not grow germs. The identification of responsible germs must then be done with special culture conditions and prolonged incubation time. Often, the diagnosis can only be made based on serological or DNA studies.
An echocardiogram is used to picture the valves of the heart, to visualize any vegetations, and to evaluate heart function.
A transesophageal echocardiogram (TEE), a special echocardiogram done by introducing a small probe into the patient's mouth down the esophagus."
]
 
A blood culture for endocarditis - how would they know an infection was from the heart, if an echo isn't involved? Is there a biological tag that goes with it that helps them determine it, or is it just a culture checking for certain bacteria? (Someone here will know that.) Again, this could be looking for what they're expecting to find.

Bob,

A blood culture generally doesn't eliminate having an echo to confirm that there are vegetations present on the valve. A positive culture in someone who is having symptoms consistant with endocarditis would prompt an echo. As you know having an echo performed is not cheap, so a blood culture is a good way of determining whether or not an echo is needed. And yes, if you are on a antibiotic regimen when the cultures are taken there is a chance the cultures will come back negative and you could still have endocarditis.

I had (after insisting) cultures drawn on a Friday afternoon and my GP called me on Sunday morning to let me know they had already come back positive. :eek: I had an echo two days later and was admitted to the hospital shortly after the echo.
 
Endocarditis

Endocarditis

I had endocarditis for 9 months before I had tests that showed it up in a blood culture. I also never had any vegetation in my valve. After being unwell and on and off antibiotics for months the blood cultures were done (I had blood tests previously but not cultures). The cultures can back positive for Strep after a few days. The GP referred me to the hospital however in this time I had started oral antibiotics. When I was tested at the hospital they couldn't get a positive culture because the antibiotics had removed the infection from the blood however oral antibiotics are effective at removing it from the heart. I also had and echo at the hospital and this showed no vegetations only that the valve was severely regugitant. I was treated for endocarditis with 5 weeks of Ceftriaxone though a PICC line. The infectious diseases director at the hospital supervised the treatment. He was of the opinion that two sets of blood cultures should be done several days apart with no antibiotics being taken to positively identify endocarditis. This does several things it eliminates the likelihood of a contaminated sample and the concentration of the viridian should have increased in the time. The two usual viridians Strep and Staph are both common and a single sample can easily pick up contamination in extraction and handling.
When my AVR was done the valve looked so bad the surgeon suspected it still had a live infection so I was treated with a Vancomycin & Gentamicin combination post surgery while the valve was in the lab being cultured.
The valve came back negative after a week, however I had to have more blood cultures done several weeks after discharge from hospital just to be sure there was no live infection that could destroy my new valve.
I believe my endocarditis started with sinus infection that spread into bronchitis, I didn't get any antibiotics for these when they first started as sinus problems have been a normal part of spring each year for me. I have had the normal sinus problems this year as well, however now at the first sign of blockage turning into infection I am of to the doctor and on antibiotics.
 
I've read a bit about the calcification theory elsewhere (I can't cite publication credit but I think there was an article in a medical journal I read at my surgeon's office). My doctors and I have had some interesting discussions about reasons for my valve condition (which had manifested itself when I was 36 but due to my state of denial, remained undiagnosed, until I turned 40).

At 5 years old I had an abcessed baby tooth that was extracted and only treated with antibiotics until my mouth healed, a longer course wasn't determined as neccessary since I was well after the source of infection was gone. I had scarlet fever and scarlettina when I was around 5 or 6, my fever was over 105 at least once, since I've been told I'd had instances of delerium and possible convulsion.

After I had a cholestectomy at age 21, my doctors said that the size and number of large gall stones they found indicated I'd likely had gall bladder disease from my early teens, along with all the associated infections this can carry with it.

I've had blood clots (likely more than the one that put me on my back, in hospital for 2 weeks in the 80's... thankfully, they treat people differently and with better drugs now) and the maze of collateral blood vessel development in my abdomen is remarkable.

What this medical history shows is that I've been in the presence of the strep and staph bacteria that are known to be present in endocarditis often and for prolonged periods of time throughout my life. The micro-scarring on my already compromised congenital bicuspid, that must have resulted, likely did accelerate the inevitable calcification process.

Your ideas are sound, but yes, I think the medical community has begun to take notice and has been publishing about this for some time. The forensic statistics should be available if you wanted to present a study based on the connection between scarring, antibiotics and calc deposits though. I think it would be a worthwhile read.
 
There's a pretty fair chance that I'm not the first or only person to think similarly to this.

I've seen the medical community publish about these types of infections leading to catastrophic endocarditis (which is not what this is particularly about). I've seen some mentions about chronic infections elsewhere in the body (particularly the gums) being possibly tied "somehow" to valve disease (again, with the main emphasis on catastrophic endocarditis, which is easier to observe in its entire cycle), but no discussion of how that would happen in the more common varieties of valve encrustation. In none of these have I seen a mechanism described that would actually link them with slow, long-term, apatitic calcification.

There are people who manipulate the thinking of groups of doctors in ways that impede altrernate thinking. There is so much misguided information in the medical community that a statin drug manufacturer sponsored a full study of the use of statins to reduce calcification of natural and replacement valves. It was successful commercially, inthat the company gained over two years of off-label prescriptions from thousands of hopeful cardiologists, who thought they might be on the edge of a breakthrough.

Of course, the statin had no effect on valve calcification.

But why were these doctors so easily misguided? Valve apatite is nothing like what's found in atherosclerosis. While there can be some calcification evident within atheromas, it's usually found in quite advanced cases, and it's not in the same ratios or composition. The beginning and mainstay of the lesions are the dangerous, soft plaque formed with cholesterols and lipids as their base.

More obviously, there are many valve patients (particularly people with bicuspid valves) who show extensive calcification of their valves, but have no significant arterial disease noted elsewhere in their systems. If it were the same or similar mechanisms, the problems would reasonably be rampant, or at least notable in most cases of senile calcification.

Do I have a hotline to the truth? Or any answers for prevention or cure? No. Of course not. But I wouldn't have fallen for that one. The point is that there are a lot of needless misconceptions out there, and sometimes they hold people back from putting forward what they may really think.

Best wishes,
 
I don't know if this is related to your thinking, but since i read your first post about this, I think of justin. Not necessarily his valve problem, actually he didn't have a pulm valve at the time.He had a section of his conduit replacedwhen he was 10 then had subacute BE when he was 11, 6 weeks of vanco and gento, had a few echos valves fine ,when he was 12 his conduit started to get blocked right on the seam, which they opened w/ stents almost yearly for 5 years then replaced the conduit when he was 17. His first conduit lasted 9 years, the repaired part lasted less than 2, I always felt it was some how related to his BE. Since his problems were where he was sewn, it seems kind of like your valve theory
 
Actually, it does tie in to the general notion that curing BE is not the end of it. It can continue to cause damage through calcification of the damaged epithelium long after the infection is gone. The medical community accepts this in short-term cycles, and I think many doctors would agree with your thoughts that the BE was the instigator in the shortened life of the second tube. I certainly do, although I have no medical degree for authority.

It's the longer term calcifications that many seem reluctant to tie to BE, the ones that take years and years to develop. Like mine.

Look at some of the folks here who have spent years in the waiting room. They generally have bicuspid valves with various degrees of associated issues. But some of them develop apatite deposits and go quickly to needing surgery. Others simply go from year to year, with some disfunction, but never seeming to hit that downhill curve. Surely, simple damage to the valve can cause that downhill to happen on its own. But what separates those individuals who don't follow that unhappy path, who hang for years on the cusp instead?

Most of the time, apatite deposits are the biggest speedup to the need for replacement. They block leaflet movement and bloodflow, creating stenosis or regurgitation (or both), depending on their placement. They hamper the flexibility of the entire valve. They grow and change, vs. bicuspid valves that are not calcified, and continue to operate, albeit at a less efficient level for many years or a lifetime without replacement. I speak to bicuspid valves, as they are the ones that tend to be discovered and then linger. Tricuspid valves with problems are usually already calcified by the time they can be discovered by a physician through normal means.

If a common difference is the lack of a low-grade endocartitic infection to tip the scale, then that might make sense.

Best wishes,
 
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