Any effect of K2 MK7 on reversing calcification among forum members?

[windsurfer2]

I have an Edwards bovine tissue aortic valve for 10 years in October 2015 and now it has severe calcification. I recently became aware of a book published about 10 years ago that K2 MK7 may halt or even reverse calcification. Has any forum member tried K2 MK7 long enough to find out if it actually halted calcification and better reversed calcification. I'm 65 so at this rate I will need a new valve about every decade so I'm very interested in any evidence that K2 or any other method has been used to make the tissue valve implants last the 20 years I originally expected. Thank you.

 

[cldlhd]

I have no input other than to say I'm interested also. I had no calcification of my valve and the cardiac cath showed my arteries were clear but my one arterial well he's some calcification within it. I've been taking k2 every day and I'm due for a ct scan in January so I'm hoping it'll show some reversal or at least no advancement as the way it is now apparently there's no danger. I can't imagine there could be major reversal though.

 

[windsurfer2]

I just started taking K2 daily (500 MK-4 mcg, 100 MK-7 mcg). The bottle says check with doctor if taking anticoagulants like Coumadin. I take 81mg aspirin for my bovine tissue valve so not sure if there are interaction problems. Any info on this would be helpful. I'm still looking for any clinical trials that confirm MK7 can halt or reverse arterial or aortic valve calcification. Today I found this link which has the latest studies. See https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?term="Vitamin+K2"&Search=Search

 

[cldlhd]

Thanks for the link. I read about the possibility in "Vitamin k2 and the Calcium Paradox". I asked my cardiologist about it but she seemed to confuse k2 with k1 and when i clarified she said she wouldn't expect any more than a 5% reduction but that could be because it's not produced by a major drug company.

 

[LondonAndy]

I just started taking K2 daily (500 MK-4 mcg, 100 MK-7 mcg). The bottle says check with doctor if taking anticoagulants like Coumadin.

Yes, interesting to find out results of the research, but as Coumadin/Warfarin works against vitamin K presumably there is likely to be an unhelpful interaction, a particular concern for those of us with mechanical valves.

 

[pellicle]

Hi

Yes, interesting to find out results of the research, but as Coumadin/Warfarin works against vitamin K presumably there is likely to be an unhelpful interaction,

There is an amount of research already done and its not definitive either way. Equally the research suggesting that warfarin causes calcium is not definitive unless you focus on rats. The initial papers suggesting bone density loss have been discredited, as no one could replicate findings and were based on sedentary elderly who were in permanent care.

Being on warfarin myself it was an early research direction for me. But its like the "sites" which warn of the dangers of immunisation. The gullible and those who are not rigorous in reading will belive what they want.

There appears some promise to the K2-7 (comes from natto if I recall correctly) but its early days.

Warfarin is highly specific in what machinery it throws a sandal in. Its the recycling pathway for K2 in a specific form. I thought that K2-7 was not involved in coagulation without enzymatic transformation, so would expect that it may not effect the INR as much

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin#Mechanism_of_action

I see the OP was asking for experience from members not just research done (which he could read) , so I initially didn't post on this as I have not tried K2-7 and have no way to know my bone density (as I'm not currently being monitored).

Best wishes

 

[pellicle]

Hi

I have an Edwards bovine tissue aortic valve for 10 years in October 2015 and now it has severe calcification.

Personally I would say that that is as strong an indicator as you'll get that your metabolism is going to do just that to every tissue prosthesis. I would suggest you look carefully at your decision to discount mechanical from the equation ... if its just a fear of warfarin you will proably find that fear is unsupported by evidence and the experience of us on it.

Knowledge is like turning the lights on in the kids room and checking there is no monster lurking in the shadows.

Here is a good start, grab a cup of coffee and a notepad and make notes on the way through

http://mayo.img.entriq.net/htm/MayoPlayer1.html?articleID=4071

I also have a summary and discussion of other points on my blog

http://cjeastwd.blogspot.com/2014/01/heart-valve-information-for-choices.html


Best wishes.

 

[windsurfer2]

LondonAndy: K2 is quite different from K1 as far as clotting. As I understand it, the body can convert K1 to K2 but K2 doesn't impact clotting.

Pellicle: I will rethink the tissue vs the mechanical valve. My original decision was based on the expectation of about 20 years so at 55 when I got the first one, I expected one more tissue operation at about 75 which would most likely be my last one. But I'm not certain that the cause of the calcification would necessarily apply to my next valve since calcification is the final stage in a plaque build up that might not occur as rapidly if I get a bigger valve.

At 55 I received an Edwards 21 mm which was small compared to my BMI (145lbs and 5' 9.5") and active life style (windsurfing and other strenuous sports) so the accelerated degradation may be the cause of more stress and turbulent flow from the too small valve. If possible to get a larger valve then perhaps I would get closer to 20 years taking me to 85. Since I doubt I'll be as active then, the newer technology may allow a safe TAVR.

On the other hand, if the same more rapid degradation of the valve is expected due to my chemistry and there is no way to stop it, then a mechanical valve with its higher clotting risks may be the better alternative especially if there are better blood thinning agents and lesser risk of accelerated arterial calcification which, as you said, may not be due to the blood thinners.

Still, I do not look forward to all the diet restrictions since being celiac (no wheat, rye and barley), also no milk and corn for other reasons - I already have so many restrictions. Also, I may need other operations for cervical and spinal stenosis where thin blood may make it more complicated and risky.

Thus the reason to explore the latest in halting and even reversing calcification and plaque growth.

 

[honeybunny]

windsurfer, I'm following this discussion because I have selected a tissue valve for my 9/30/15 AVR surgery at age 61. May I ask when you expect to have your next surgery? I'll also be interested in knowing at that time which valve you select for your second op, even though your decision will be made after my surgery.

Michele

 

[windsurfer2]

Michele,

It will be after your surgery. I don't know when I will need surgery and won't discuss it with my cardiologist until my next appointment in December unless symptoms require it sooner. I just found out about my severe calcification in the July echo and about any calcification in April of this year based on July's echo in 2014. I think my cardiologist doesn't waste time discussing things if there is nothing you can do about it. Normally, he sees me once per year and probably not the doctor but his assistant. Things have been fairly routine over these years so this calcification thing caught me off-guard.

However, severe calcification is probably the last category of a valve's life. I prefer to research things before being told it is time for surgery with little time to make informed decisions which could come perhaps at any time - I just don't know. I also don't know how fast tissue valves start to fail once they have reached severe calcification - a few months or a few years?

I just finished listening to the Mayo presentation that Pellicle linked above and it was very useful from a hard data point of view - that those with mechanical valves live longer all else considered. So a mechanical valve is now in the running especially if I find it not too difficult to do weekly self testing as the data shows better outcomes over monthly clinic testing. I'm still concerned about impacts if on blood thinners and I continue to do water sports. The surgeries I may need for my cervical spine probably come from sports damage e.g. crashing at high speed on a windsurfer when still strapped in the harness. The same will apply to sailing on foils which I hope to do for many years.

Best wishes and a quick recovery,
​
Bob

 

[honeybunny]

Thanks, Bob~

 

[pellicle]

Hi

Well welcome aboard

With respect to

Still, I do not look forward to all the diet restrictions since being celiac (no wheat, rye and barley), also no milk and corn for other reasons - I already have so many restrictions. Also, I may need other operations for cervical and spinal stenosis where thin blood may make it more complicated and risky.
.

You will find at hanging out with us here that such misinformation is commonly propagated and is not supported by the main experience or literature with any veracity.

I have written here many times and Dick in particular is a testament to the exaggerated nature of the claims.

To be honest your experience is testament to the problems with tissue valves in younger active patients. Yet these myths propagate. There are reasons for the continuation of the myths. Mostly they are propagated by people who aren't on warfarin, and people who are paid by the alternatives. Its easy to drag out the bogey man of warfarin and its risks, but somehow the risks of injury (as opposed to death) from redo-operations are played down (as car accidents are played down ...) . You now have direct experience in the exceptions to the rule of "you'll get 20 years" and if you search here you'll find you are one of many.

You may find this recent post interesting:
http://www.valvereplacement.org/foru...lve-type/page5

People often scare themselves up on "what if" problems with warfarin and paint the tissue prosthesis as a "problemless" alternative.

My view is that there is bigger business in tissue valves as its repeat business and warfarin profits no one.

Life on warfarin is managable, you can manage surgery on warfarin (I have had two) but the only way to manage a failing tissue valve is redo.

Best wishes on the soul searching. Feel free if you want to pm me for a yak. I've had the benefit of a lifetime with this condition, two valves and 3 OH Surgeries

 

[windsurfer2]

Thanks, Pellicle for all the information. I feel I have a more balanced view than before I visited this forum. It doesn't look like K2 MK7 will work in time to slow down or reverse my calcification of the Edwards bovine valve so now I'm focusing on all the other issues such as how to select a surgeon and resources are available to find surgeons with a great track record. Funny how we can read reviews about almost any product and service online but not critical issues like selecting a heart valve surgeon on some hard data basis. Has this been covered in any forums here? I'll start separate posts on some of these issues after I try searching the topics to see if my questions are already answered.

 

[Paleowoman]

Hi Windsurfer2 - I've only just seen this thread as I was away on holiday when you started it. I take vitamin K2 as MK-7. I've been taking it for four years now. I originally started taking it after reading about it on cardiologist Dr William Davis' blog when he said it reversed the cacification in a patient's aortic stenosis. I also have osteoporosis and read that K2 is good for that - in fact in Japan it's given in theraputic doses as a treatment for osteoporosis. A couple of years ago I read Dr Kate Rheaume-Bleue's book 'Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox' which is very good. I also contacted Dr Claus Vermeer who was involved in a clinical trial to see if K2 can reverse coronoary calcification, I believe it is still ongoing: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01002157

When I first started K2 I believed it was helping with the stenosis of my bicuspid aortic valve becasue the pressure gradient stabilised ! But then it shot up so I don't know. I had my valve replaced with an Edwards magna ease bovine valve in January of last year (when I was 60). I take 300mcg K2 as MK-7 per day - I take Life Extension Super K which contains 200mcg K2 as MK7 so on one day I take 1 capsule on day 2 I take 2 capsules, alternating like that. I take it both for the sake of my valve and my osteoporosis just in case it helps - it does not harm so it's only my pocket that suffers and it's not that expensive. My cardiologist knows I take it - he probably doesn't know much about it though.

PS - just reading one of your earlier posts in which you imply that having a "small" valve for your size means turbulent blood flow and quicker calcification. Is that a known riisk for calcification ? I have the smallest size valve (19mm) and there must be turbulent flow as my pressure gradient is 33 mm/HG, been that since the first echo a week post surgery and still that last March. The technician explained that with the ring that the vavle is sewn onto there is "not much space" - he wouldn't estimate the "effective orifice area" even though I asked, said that wasn't done in the UK where I live. Btw, a surgeon won't put in a bigger or smaller valve than the size of the space indicates otherwise there can be a "patient prosthesis mismatch" which can lead to all sorts of bad problems from what I've read.

PPS - I'm also very active, walking several miles every day and doing weight lifting, heavy weights not girlie weights, three times a week.

 

[cldlhd]

I was watching the webinar posted on another thread ,52 yr old choosing between tissue and mechanical, and the surgeon seemed to say if your native valve was heavily calcified then a replacement tissue is likely to get calcified also. He also mentioned some " interesting research being done at the University of Pennsylvania regarding the endothelia and valve calcification". I plan on quizzing my surgeon about valve calcification when I see him at the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania in February for my one year follow up. Btw I see you're from Virginia and looking to select a surgeon. If you're willing to take the ride to Philadelphia as anyone out here who has read my posts can testify to I heartily, pun intended, recommend dr. Joseph Bavaria. I don't want to bore everybody out here talking about his success rate so if you want you can PM me.

 

[windsurfer2]

Thanks Paleogirl for the K2 MK7 info. It seems that if after 4 years there is little obvious difference then perhaps at my late stage of trying K2 is not enough time to stop an AVR redo so now focusing on which surgeon and valve to get. (Thanks cldlhd for Penn Sate surgeon reference). It has been a decade since I researched patient prosthetic mismatch so I don't know if having too small a valve relative to your body mass index (BMI) contributes to accelerated calcification. But it seems it would cause your heart to work harder if your muscle work load is high (I used to windsurf in extreme conditions) but the output of oxygen per time is lower than your original effective orifice area (EOA). So I reasoned that more wear and tear is more stress on tissues whose damage may be a precursor to calcification.

Now I'm focused on some complex decisions relating to multiple surgeries not just for AVR but severe cervical spine stenosis and which to do first if go mechanical with its clot/blood thinning risks. I've taken some rapid deceleration crashes that stretched my neck while still strapped in on the windsurf board within the last 2 decades and before I knew about my aortic stenosis. That is how I learned about my stenosis -asked my doctor why I could not hold on the the boom as though my muscles didn't work so she suggested checking my heart and found the stenosis. There was no heart surgery on Maui so returned to mainland and unfortunately not much windsurfing any more.