antibiotics before dental work

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I remember when the guidelines changed a few years ago because my dentist told me about it. He contacted my cardiologist to ask if I needed to continue with the pre-medication; her answer was yes so the dentist writes a prescription for me.

Looks like I don't need to take the pills for getting a filling though. I kind of remembered that but forgot, and the last time I went I was still reeling from the surgery news and wasn't going to take any chances.
 
sue you are correct it is the british heart foundation,, having spoken to my doc and cardio there are in agreement with there findings, so no antibiotics for me,

I think it is the NICE guidelines. The ONE thing different that NICE takes into account than all the other Orgs, is cost. They don't say it doesn't help, they say it helps such a small amount of people it isn't cost effective to pre medicate everyone that is at high risk IF they got BE. It's been a while since I read them, but I think they also say for the dentist to discuss it with the patient and IF the patients wants them to give them. (I don't have all the links right now, but if you search here for NICE dentist cost the links should come up. but the UK guidelines are very long)
 
I think it is the NICE guidelines. The ONE thing different that NICE takes into account than all the other Orgs, is cost. They don't say it doesn't help, they say it helps such a small amount of people it isn't cost effective to pre medicate everyone that is at high risk IF they got BE. It's been a while since I read them, but I think they also say for the dentist to discuss it with the patient and IF the patients wants them to give them. (I don't have all the links right now, but if you search here for NICE dentist cost the links should come up. but the UK guidelines are very long)

This (the cost-effective part) is what I have always thought and will always think. It may only help a very small amount of people, but if I am one of those people that it might possible help, then I am going to premedicate!!!
 
you may be right,but i was assured that is not the case,it is purely a medical decision,maybe its different in other countries,and may be based on money?
 
Wouldn't the need for pre-medication be the same no matter which country? Either certain conditions/valves require it or not. Either it is a money issue in all situations or it is a medical situation. Human bodies/heart valves are the same world over.
 
Amoxicillin is cheap compared to the meds for endocarditis..My Dr. told me it's antibiotics for me now for ever. The reason I got the echo that got me here is because I asked about not having to take them any more. They ordered an echo because I hadn't had one for a while and here I am...
 
Both my cardiologist and dentist insist on pre-medication. In my experience it can't be a cost factor, Amoxillin here is not costly at all, I am having a root canal re-opened on Tuesday next week and just had my prescription filled for the equavalent of US$1.50 for 6 grams.

Prescription reads 4 grams one hour before and 2 grams 4 hours later. Sounds a bit like overkill!
 
you may be right,but i was assured that is not the case,it is purely a medical decision,maybe its different in other countries,and may be based on money?

The ONLY guidelines that mention cost effectiveness at all are the 2008 UK NICE guidelines and and that is why their recomendations are different than the other Orgs and Countries

the one thing that the 2008 NICE guidelines say they take into effect that all the other orgs don't is COST. it is very long, 107 pages but
(bottom of page 11-12 ) http://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/pdf...CEguidance.pdf

"Four clinical guidelines on the prevention of IE are discussed in subsequent sections: American Heart Association (AHA) 2007 (Wilson et al. 2007), British Society for Antimicrobial Chemotherapy (BSAC)
2006 (Gould et al. 2006), European Society of Cardiology (ESC) 2004 (Horstkotte et al. 2004) and British Cardiac Society (BCS)/Royal College of Physicians (RCP) 2004 (Advisory Group of the British Cardiac Society Clinical Practice Committee 2004).
The recommendations of these four guidelines, and where reported the rationale for their recommendations, have been considered by the GDG in the development of this guideline. However, it should be emphasised that the GDG has based its recommendations on an independent consideration of the available clinical and cost-effectiveness evidence and, where appropriate, expert opinion."


right before that on page 10 it says
Infective endocarditis (IE) is an inflammation of the endocardium, particularly affecting the heart valves, caused mainly by bacteria but occasionally by other infectious agents. It is a rare condition, with an annual incidence of fewer than 10 per 100,000 cases in the normal population. Despite advances in diagnosis and treatment, IE remains a life-threatening disease with significant mortality (approximately 20%) and morbidity.
The predisposing factors for the development of IE have changed in the past 50 years, mainly with the decreasing incidence of rheumatic heart disease and the increasing impact of prosthetic heart valves, nosocomial infection and intravenous drug misuse. However, the potentially serious impact of IE on the individual has not changed (Prendergast 2006).

Published medical literature contains many case reports of IE being preceded by an interventional procedure, most frequently dentistry. IE can be caused by several different organisms, many of which could be transferred into the blood during an interventional procedure. Streptococci, Staphylococcus aureus and enterococci are important causative organisms.

It is accepted that many cases of IE are not caused by interventional procedures (Brincat et al. 2006), but with such a serious condition it is reasonable to consider that any cases of IE that can be prevented should be prevented. Consequently, since 1955, antibiotic prophylaxis that aims to prevent endocarditis has been used in at-risk patients. However, the evidence base for the use of antibiotic prophylaxis has relied heavily on extrapolation from animal models of the disease (Pallasch 2003) and the applicability of these models to people has been questioned. With a rare but serious condition such as IE it is difficult to plan and execute research using experimental study designs. Consequently, the evidence available in this area is limited, being drawn chiefly from observational (case–control) studies
 
Amoxicillin is cheap compared to the meds for endocarditis..My Dr. told me it's antibiotics for me now for ever. The reason I got the echo that got me here is because I asked about not having to take them any more. They ordered an echo because I hadn't had one for a while and here I am...

I could never figure out how it could be cost effective to not give antibiotics, because it only helps a few people. Justin had BE and just his bill alone, for 2 weeks in the hospital, echos and 6 weeks of 2 different IV antibiotics would have paid for alot of people to get PA if they are high risk and Justin was lucky, he didn't have damage to any valves (of course he didn't have a pulm valve at the time to that probably helped) Imagine the cost if ontop of all of that, you had just valve replacemnt surgery, then I think of cases like Andrew , Wendy son who got BE and spent months in CICU had several surgeries ect, and can't even imagine the bills

of course you can get BE even with PA, since only about 1/3 of the cases are probably related to teeth/mouth, but if it just stops a small percentage of the people from getting BE, I can't see how it saves money not to give them
 
A few years ago my dentist started me on the updated version of antibs:
2 pills of Clindamycine one hour before dental work...previously I had been swallowing a larger amount of Amoxicillin and I hated it.
 
Bina, I shall enquire about the Clindamycine. I also dislike the handsful of Amoxicillin capsules. Thanks for the tip.

Dick, interesting that you should mention that your Rx is for medication only before the procedure and none after. When I was in the pharmacy the pharmacist assistant wondered out aloud about the post procedure part of the Rx. Her boss however came over and said that we must follow the cardio's prescription. I shall also discuss this with him along with the possibility of using a different antibiotic as suggested by Bina.
 
Apart from taking antibiotics for an above-gumline filling, which is just completely wrong (I can't believe a competent dentist or cardiologist who was actually aware of the type of appointment would insist on that - they might as well say you need it to clip your fingernails), here are some of my thoughts on the other portion of the discussion going on here...

Cost prevention is not the reason for not providing antibiotics before dental and other intrusive procedures. It's a ridiculous notion, as most of these antibiotics are very cheap (literally pennies per pill for Amoxicillin) and would be outbalanced easily by the costs of curing IE, if they were effective to stop it in the first place. Insurance companies would be all over this as a cost saver, if it worked.

The reduced recommendation is based on extensive research that says taking the antibiotics doesn't work to prevent infective endocarditis, and on past research that shows a number of damages that taking antibiotics can cause. In the US especially, we've been taught to treat them like vitamins, as having only good sides, rather than as the serious drugs that they are.

In short, it's not even a harmless but ineffective preventative attempt. There are risks to taking antibiotics that people don't seem to realize (besides deadly allergic reactions), including damaging intestinal issues, development of treatment-resistant infections from otherwise minor infections the patient may already have, and loss of effectiveness of whole classes of antibiotics in individuals who develop an "immunity" to them over time, and cease to process them internally. The risks are greater than the unlikely possibility of any benefits.

How perilous an endocarditis infection can be shouldn't be confused with what works to prevent or treat it. We all know we don't want IE. However, the research supported by the AHA is very strong in its results showing nonperformance of prophylactic antibiotics. The taking of them didn't reduce the rate of people who got Infective Endocarditis.

Also, there is ample evidence that most of the IE blamed on dental procedures was far more likely unrelated to anything that happened in a dentist's office. We've seen people post on this forum that someone they know got IE eight months after a dental visit, or six months, or three days later. While it's possible to have a smouldering case of IE, it's not the most common form, and three days is too soon for incubation. What makes more sense is that it's just been easier for years to blame it on the last time the patient was at the dentist, no matter how long ago that was, or even what it was for.

And there have been people who posted here who said they got IE, even though they took the drugs before their appointments.

Of course you can get IE from dental procedures. And from chewing a sharp potato chip, brushing your teeth too hard (although not brushing makes things even worse), from a sinus infection, maybe even from picking your nose too hard. But a rabbit's foot won't prevent it.

Medicine is not even close to perfected. We live in a world of competing risks. If you do everything "right," your health is still endangered by by the world around and inside of us. We need to accept it and move on.

Doctors don't want to say that they don't have an answer, and patients don't want to hear that from their doctors. Press a doctor for something for a child's earache, and he'll give you antibiotics, even though he can see that the infection is viral and antibiotics don't work on viruses. Although there has been much publicity about this problem, people still go to their doctors insisting on antibiotics for the earache, and there are even cases of threats and lawsuits when doctors have denied them. People want the safety of there being an answer, whether it's real or not.

Were it not for that type of backlash, the prophylactic antibiotic recommendations would likely have been all but dropped last year. As it is, they will likely be slowly peeled away over the next decade.

Best wishes,
 
I want to say again the reason Cost was ever mentioned, was because the NICE guidelines, which are different than the other 3 orgs recomendation, (that give PA for the group of people not at the most risk, but the chances of the worst outcomes IF they got BE) say the ONE thing they take into consideration that the AHA and the other 2 groups don't is cost. They do not say it on their double sided brochure, but say it several times in the 107 page guidelines.
Most things I've read say PA only prevents a small amount of the BE, not that it doesn't help at all, and they have never done studies giving 1/2 of the people at worse risk for BE PA and 1/2 nothing and see what happens. But there have been studies looking back and tracing BE to dentists in the right time frame, not a couple days or many months after.
and of course people that take PA when they have the dental procedures that COULD cause problems, still can get BE since most things I've read say only about 1/3 of the BE can be related to dentist/mouth so they probably would fall into the 2/3 that get it all the other ways you can get it. I don't know where they get that percentage, maybe depnding what the bacteria is that grows and if it is one of the normal ones you find in mouths or not ect.
I'm certainly not discounting any of the risks/damage that unnessecary antibiotics cause, but IF taking PA antibiotics only prevent a small number of people from getting BE and last numbers I saw 20% of the cases of BE end in death (which came from the NICE guidelines) not to mention the other morbidity, I understand WHY the AHA hasn't dropped them all together and why the NICE guidelines even tell the dentist to have a discussion with their patients and let them help decide what they want.
Honestly I will be interested to see what happens in the next few years, since basically the patients in the UK and other countries that go with the NICE that aren't getting the PA for the same dental procedures that patients in the US would be getting PA, it will be interesting to see IF their cases of BE increases. IF it turns out there is no increase in the number of cases, then that would prove they don't help at all.,
 
I was at my dentist recently and having insisted on antibiotics for decades he can no longer prescribe them as the findings seem to show that one is at a higher risk of having an anaphylactic reaction to the drug than the treatment causing endocarditis ? It's just left me confused and worried about dental treatment in the future.
 
All the dentists here in Jersey are private unlike the UK where you can get an NHS one if you are lucky and my dentist got cold feet when I needed a scale and polish so referred me to the hospital dental department.

I saw the consultant there and he decided to liaise with the consultant cardiologist who as a result then gave a talk to the dentists in the island about antibiotics, endocarditis and PACE.

He told the dentists that if you have had endocarditis then you know that you do not want it again and will do virtually anything to avoid it, or to attempt to avoid it. His advice to the dentists was that if a high risk patient made an informed decision to take antibiotics having had it explained about PACE, possible adverse reactions and the like then to go ahead and prescribe for their mental well-being if nothing else. I get my antibiotics.
 
Regarding NOT taking antibiotics for above-gumline fillings, the last time I went in for a filling, some CLUTZ, a new assistant, came in with some floss and SAWED a cut right into my gum :eek: . I wasn't quite angry enough to embarass her over it but I was glad I'd taken my antibiotics (and I won't let her near my teeth the next time I go in).

And also, even if the best of dentists thinks the filling will remain above gumline, sometimes a tooth just doesn't survive the drilling intact and then the filling has suddenly gotten more complicated and maybe the antibiotics might have been better taken.

I can imagine lots of scenarios where these types of things could happen.

And despite my aversion to taking any kind of medication that I even think is potentially dangerous or not necessary, for some reason, despite reading all of this, I still want my antibiotics before dental stuff. Maybe it's because I've always taken them? I don't know. And I don't know if they really work. This post is just my opinion, which I've often been told is wrong :rolleyes: .
 
They will have to pry them out of my hand before I stop taking antibiotics before my dental appointments. I don't wish to be the one who they say "oops, you might have benefitted by taking antibiotics. So sad, so sorry." I want every possible protection available.
 
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