High Volume Endurance Training and Tissue/Mechanical Valves...

Philosophunculist · Oct 16, 2024

There is a ton of great information on the site regarding mechanical and tissue valves and valve selection but I haven't found anything regarding 'higher' volume endurance training and tissue valves (or mechanical valves for that matter, but I'm pretty sure an extra few million beats aren't going to do much to carbon)...

Does anyone know of anyone doing a moderate to high volume of endurance training (more than 10-15 hrs/week with their HR at or above 70-80% HR max)?

Physics usually works

So one would think it would increase the wear and tear on the valve and decrease the valve's 'lifespan'.
I haven't seen or heard of any people doing that sort of training. I'd love to hear about any cases.

Thanks so much for the time.

3mm · Oct 16, 2024

Philosophunculist said:
'higher' volume endurance training and tissue valves (or mechanical valves for that matter,

Recovery after surgery takes time, patience, and a slow buildup of your exercise program. Don't rush!

d333gs · Oct 16, 2024

hi Philos
There are a couple of people here who work out and are into heart rate zone training.
I get in a 90 minute daily workout 6 days a week. Heart rate 70-80%. I have a tissue valve. Nearing my second anniversary in Febuary.(or is it the third) no tissue issues so far.

Philosophunculist · Oct 16, 2024

d333gs said:
hi Philos
There are a couple of people here who work out and are into heart rate zone training.
I get in a 90 minute daily workout 6 days a week. Heart rate 70-80%. I have a tissue valve. Nearing my second anniversary in Febuary.(or is it the third) no tissue issues so far.

Thank so much for the response D333gs. I really appreciate all the information I can get!

d333gs · Oct 16, 2024

Philosophunculist said:
There is a ton of great information on the site regarding mechanical and tissue valves and valve selection but I haven't found anything regarding 'higher' volume endurance training and tissue valves (or mechanical valves for that matter, but I'm pretty sure an extra few million beats aren't going to do much to carbon fiber)...

Does anyone know of anyone doing a moderate to high volume of endurance training (more than 10-15 hrs/week with their HR at or above 70-80% HR max)?

Physics usually works So one would think it would increase the wear and tear on the valve and decrease the valve's 'lifespan'.
I haven't seen or heard of any people doing that sort of training. I'd love to hear about any cases.

Thanks so much for the time.

OK, I see you just joined. Did you get OHS yet?

Philosophunculist · Oct 16, 2024

3mm said:
Recovery after surgery takes time, patience, and a slow buildup of your exercise program. Don't rush!

Slow and steady is always good advice. Thanks for the response.

Philosophunculist · Oct 16, 2024

d333gs said:
OK, I see you just joined. Did you get OHS yet?

No surgery yet. Will have AVR and an aneurysm dealt with.... I am the process of figuring out what procedure to get and who to do it

.

Philosophunculist · Oct 17, 2024

d333gs said:
I get in a 90 minute daily workout 6 days a week. Heart rate 70-80%.

I think I figured out how to use quotes and actually respond...I wanted to tell you: Your mitochondria love you for this

.

Chuck C · Oct 17, 2024

Philosophunculist said:
Does anyone know of anyone doing a moderate to high volume of endurance training (more than 10-15 hrs/week with their HR at or above 70-80% HR max)?

I do about 9 to 11 hours per week of endurance training. I do the vast majority of my training in zone 2 and keep it about 60 to 75 % HR max. I have a mechanical valve.

I am very happy with the improvements to my endurance. I returned to endurance training about 4 months after surgery and have been surprised with my gains. I can look back over each 6 month period and say that it has continued to improve. Being 3.5+ years out of surgery, I would have expected it to have plateaud a couple of years ago. I believe that the remodeling of the heart following surgery, after being under high pressure for so long, can take a few years.

Philosophunculist · Oct 17, 2024

Chuck C said:
I do about 9 to 11 hours per week of endurance training. I do the vast majority of my training in zone 2 and keep it about 60 to 75 % HR max. I have a mechanical valve.

I am very happy with the improvements to my endurance. I returned to endurance training about 4 months after surgery and have been surprised with my gains. I can look back over each 6 month period and say that it has continued to improve. Being 3.5+ years out of surgery, I would have expected it to have plateaud a couple of years ago. I believe that the remodeling of the heart following surgery, after being under high pressure for so long, can take a few years.

That is awesome to hear! Your mitochondria are loving you too!!! I am interested because I know there are more than a handful of outliers who have gotten many, many years from a tissue valve, but I can't find anyone who has gotten a bunch while doing a high volume of endurance exercise.

If I were to get a tissue valve, one of the things I would realize is that it would be a temporary fix and that I would be almost certainly signing up for a second OHS surgery (and a mechanical valve)....I think It could be reasonable for someone my age to expect maybe 7-10 years with a tissue valve...But I have to think that number might shrink quite a bit with lots and lots of cardio...one of the reasons I'd be considering the tissue valve is a lifestyle that would include lots and lots and lots of training and mtb/gravel racing...Just wondering if there are any zany cases of folks who won the lottery and do lots of training and have a functioning tissue valve for some absurdly long-time

.

Thanks so much for responding again. The discussion is super helpful. Now I'm going back down the rabbit hole that has become my life: Neglecting everything but amateur research on all things heart valve replacement

.

nobog · Oct 17, 2024

Mechanical valves are accelerated life cycled at 1000 beats per minute and they still don't "wear out" so 150 bpm is no big deal.

Philosophunculist · Oct 17, 2024

nobog said:
Mechanical valves are accelerated life cycled at 1000 beats per minute and they still don't "wear out" so 150 bpm is no big deal.

Sounds about right...I wouldn't expect to wear out carbon if I lived 3 lifetimes. But, im guessing the same doesn't apply to tissue. I would have figured there would be at least one crazy outlier who has had a tissue valve for 10 years and throws down a BQ marathon time...but maybe not. That would be sort of telling.

nobog · Oct 17, 2024

Just a note, the valves are made of carbon (in case of SJM it's carbon coated graphite) - nothing close to carbon fiber.

Philosophunculist · Oct 17, 2024

nobog said:
Just a note, the valves are made of carbon (in case of SJM it's carbon coated graphite) - nothing close to carbon fiber.

Ha! Im too used to typing about bikes

pellicle · Oct 17, 2024

Philosophunculist said:
Does anyone know of anyone doing a moderate to high volume of endurance training (more than 10-15 hrs/week with their HR at or above 70-80% HR max)?

Leadville did ... but he's more autistic than me and left ... he's a power athlete, cycling and weight training. Oh, and he's on a mech ... which are more haemoglobin smashing in nature than bio are ... dig through his posts. He's more "terse" (meaning less verbose) than me but his few words are worth a lot.

I'm no athlete, I just practice moderate regular exersize.

JWalters · Oct 18, 2024

7 years of ~5hrs week 120-150BPM / different kinds of training. No changes noticeable or detected on Echo.
Just finished the TMB hike in 6 days / 75 total intense hours with some altitude -- All Good !!

Innovativebrain · Oct 18, 2024

I'm following this, and have similar concerns. I'm a regular mountain biker, spending 6 months a year going from Mt Bike area to Mt Bike area in the US and Canada. 67, 5 years in on a Edwards Magna Ease (Bio) Sometimes really push it. No ill effects yet, Next Echo in about a month. Also interested in any data on lengthening biomaterial via diet/supplementation or meds. On Lipitor 20Mg and Take Magnesium Citrate 200mg 2x/day based on some prelim research I saw on calcification Px in normal cardiac/circulatory tissue

tjay · 2024-11-26T00:00:26-0500

I'm 4 months AVR post-op with On-X mechanical valve, and have been hitting 85%-100% MHR during my 1-hour running sessions for > 1 month now.
For the last couple of weeks though, I feel like I'm getting plateaued at ~6.25 mph pace (i.e. 10km/hr) but I'm more than happy with that

I used to run before surgery too....

3mm · 2024-11-26T01:04:47-0500

tjay said:
For the last couple of weeks though, I feel like I'm getting plateaued at ~6.25 mph pace

Has your cardiologist looked at your heart's electrical system?

I'm 15 months post-op with a mechanical On-X aortic valve. About 6 months ago I plateaued. The electrophysiologist had me wear a Holter for 2 weeks, which showed I had 20% PVC loading. This means 20% of my heart beats had incorrect timing of the lower heart chambers, which reduces their efficiency, which limited the oxygenated blood supply. 3 weeks ago I had cardiac ablation, which we hope will fix this problem.

tjay · 2024-11-26T02:20:35-0500

3mm said:
Has your cardiologist looked at your heart's electrical system?

I'm 15 months post-op with a mechanical On-X aortic valve. About 6 months ago I plateaued. The electrophysiologist had me wear a Holter for 2 weeks, which showed I had 20% PVC loading. This means 20% of my heart beats had incorrect timing of the lower heart chambers, which reduces their efficiency, which limited the oxygenated blood supply. 3 weeks ago I had cardiac ablation, which we hope will fix this problem.

Yes I've had echo and EKG etc all along. Things looked funky earlier but have caught up recently.

When I say plateaued, I mean it's not getting better by the day like it was in the last 1-1.5 months

.... However, I'm back to where I was (i.e. 6.25 mph for 1 hour) few months before the surgery (2024). 1-2 years ago (2022-23), I was much faster (7.25 mph over 1 hour), and my performance declined gradually in that timeframe until the surgery (hence i went for surgery). So I would be patient over the next few months, now that I've made reasonable initial strides. I'm only 120 days (4 months) post-op yet.

Some days when I run intense, I apply Kardia 6-lead EKG system as soon as I get off the treadmill, which's not complaining about any electrical issue (Normal Sinus Rythum).

I think your suggestion has good merits though and I would keep an eye on electrical side of things. Although it's much better on its own, here are opportunities for improvement in that department yet. Thanks

High Volume Endurance Training and Tissue/Mechanical Valves...

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