We're off to the Cleveland Clinic for a work-up...

Valve Replacement Forums

Help Support Valve Replacement Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Christian

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2002
Messages
283
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
The time for my wife's every-two-year visit to the Cleveland Clinic has arrived. This visit is very important to us, because we intend to find out (1) whether we can safely have a child pre-surgery, (2) whether it's time for surgery, and (3) the odds of a successful Dr. Cosgrove mitral valve repair operation.

I was reviewing all the charts this weekend to make sure we ask the right questions. It seems that Jill's statistics are "borderline" for surgery if an aggressive approach is being considered (and that's pretty much what we're considering -- early intervention). She has severe 3-4+ isolated mitral regurgitation caused by a myxomatic (thickened) mitral valve -- with mild prolapse of both leaflets.

I don't understand some of the numbers on her charts and figured someone here might.

Her left ventricle stats are: LVIDd 5.2, LVIDs 3.1 -- is "LVIDd" and "LVIDs" the same as "LVEDD" and "LVESD?" I know they're all measurements of the left ventricle, but the abbreviations are throwing me off.

Her ejection fraction is 60%. How does that compare to any of you who have had mitral valve surgery? What was your EF afterwards? I've read that EF drops, on average, about 10% after corrective mitral valve surgery (because the pre-surgery number is inflated by the regurgitation).

Thanks ahead of time for any thoughts.

Christian
 
Christian:

My husband had dual valves installed....aortic and mitral. Before surgery his EF was 40%........and now, 9 months later it is still 40%. I never heard that a drop in the AF might be there......hmmmm. Good luck on the workup.


Marybeth
 
Keep checking

Keep checking

Hi..You will have lots of posts later..today and many days ahead..We have some wonderful people who will respond to your questions. Sorry I cannot..I had valvereplacement due to an aneurysm 3 months ago and am running all over this summer with my 10 year old grandson..In other words..I feel great. Good luck. Bonnie
 
Abbreviation help:

Abbreviation help:

the small s is systole (squeeze) and small d is diastole (filling)

'I' is for interior wall to wall.

With her EF I'd be surprised at intervention now.

Where did you learn that the EF would be lower after repair to the Mitral Regurg?

Usually the EF is the blood ejected on each systole or squeeze 'beat' thru the outflow tract (Aortic valve to Aorta).

Or am I off here?
 
Re: Abbreviation help:

Re: Abbreviation help:


gary said:
the small s is systole (squeeze) and small d is diastole (filling)

'I' is for interior wall to wall.

With her EF I'd be surprised at intervention now.

Where did you learn that the EF would be lower after repair to the Mitral Regurg?

Usually the EF is the blood ejected on each systole or squeeze 'beat' thru the outflow tract (Aortic valve to Aorta).

Or am I off here?

Hi Gary. I hope your recent problems worked themselves out.

I'm not sure whether or not your last sentence is "off." It sounds right.

The 10% EF drop I mentioned comes from an article by Maurice Enriquez-Sarano, a Paris-educated doctor working at the Mayo Clinic. He's a prolific publisher, and an advocate of aggressive intervention for mitral valve regurgitation.

Here's a link to the article:

http://heart.bmjjournals.com/cgi/co...0&volume=87&firstpage=79&journalcode=heartjnl

A search for "approximately 10%" on the page will take you to the exact spot.
 
Thx, Christian for the EF reference.

Thx, Christian for the EF reference.

As a future POSSIBLE candidate for MV repair, or replacement, the article is even more thought provoking. I suspected the Mitral valve considerations might be far more complicated than the Aortic but his explanation brings that home all the more.

As for the recent A-fib event, I will be put on a holter tomorrow for 48 hours and if there is no hidden A-fib (during sleep or otherwise distracted from the worry about another A-fib event and all that it entails) then the coumadin regimen may be stopped.


AVR; 4/00;CCF; Cosgrove;Bovine pericardial
 
Keep in mind that the article reflects the "new" aggressive school of thought. That said, it's articles like that (and I have several more if you're interested, all from medical journals) that have us considering surgery now.

We'll see what Drs. Cosgrove and Stewart have to say. We should talk to Cosgrove's Nurse Practitioner today or tomorrow and Dr. Stewart on Thursday.

I still can't figure out whether LVIDS and LVESD (or the diastolic equivalents) are the same thing.

LVESD = Left Ventricle End Systolic Diameter
LVIDS = Left Ventricle Internal Diameter Systolic

Does anyone know whether these are synonymous?
 
Christian - It is really good to hear from you. I hope Jill is doing well and not upset with all your heart research. I think she should feel more secure that you are keeping informed. About the EF, after surgery your left ventrical chamber will get smaller. Even in my case, after 20+ years of being enlarged, it got smaller. Even considering this, I don't know if my EF went down, but at least this is a possible reason.
 
Bill Hall said:
Christian - It is really good to hear from you. I hope Jill is doing well and not upset with all your heart research. I think she should feel more secure that you are keeping informed. About the EF, after surgery your left ventrical chamber will get smaller. Even in my case, after 20+ years of being enlarged, it got smaller. Even considering this, I don't know if my EF went down, but at least this is a possible reason.

Thanks for the reply, Bill. Jill is doing fine -- her job is to simply have the surgery and then recover from it -- I try to do everything else to take some pressure off her and to help her make fully-informed decisions. I'm an obsessive researcher anyway (I'm a corporate attorney), so it comes naturally. And, in a way, it's therapeutic.

It's a relief to hear there is some ventricular shrinkage post-surgery.

I'll be sure to put Jill in touch with all of you (especially those of you who, like Bill, are Cosgrove vets) once we decide to go ahead with the surgery. She'll likely be nervous about the pain/recovery.
 
Hi Chrisitian,
I also have MVP with severe regurgitation like your wife.
I just went for another echo cardiogram last week.
My says since I'm still feeling good to stay with the meds unless I develop symptoms.
My left atrium went from 3.4 to 3.9 I thought that was a big jump in six months. My ejection fracation is 65% which is good.

How does your wife feel? Does she have symptoms?

That was a good link you posted thanks. I have a bunch of
mitral valve repair links if your interested.
 
Dear Christian:

I wanted also to express my thanks for the link you included on this posting. I feel also, that a more agressive approach should have been taken with my husband, who suffers from organic valve disease. I also applaud your efforts on your wife's behalf. For about a year now, I have felt badly that I never did the research until my husband was very symptomatic. No one ever explained to us what could happen, what symptoms to look for., etc. But the fact that at our very fingertips is such a wealth of information, I now know better, and try to keep up with things as best possible.

I want to encourage you to have a doctor get the surgery performed as soon as feasible. My husband ended up with a second valve involved, chronic a-fib, and CHF. His symptoms were horrid weeks before the surgery. In the 8 months since the surgery, we have been to the ER 3 times, and he has had to see specailists in a number of fields as a result of meds, or whatever. He has now been diagnosed with a severely leaking tricuspid valve, and is being evaluated for a pacemaker, as the meds to not control his heart rate. And, I can tell you that he is actually better than he was a year ago.

Be vigilant.

Marybeth
 
Christian: Good Catch on the CCF Heart forum

Christian: Good Catch on the CCF Heart forum

The Cardiologist in answer to you, provided good grist for the mill.

Glad you got thru.
 
Mitral Valve Stuff

Mitral Valve Stuff

Hi everyone. Thanks for all the replies.

We're back from Cleveland; and it was a fruitful trip!

I was very worried that Jill's heart may have moved into the "intervention" range suggested by the article I linked to above and three others published recently (I have links and copies, if anyone wants to read them). It had been two years since she was seen at Cleveland, and I was on the edge of my seat.

Fortunately, I was able to spend about an hour with Jill's Cleveland Clinic cardiologist, both before and after her stress echo. I can't tell you how grateful I was for that opportunity.

Here's what I learned, for those of you who are tracking mitral problems. Maybe this post will help you ask the right questions...

1. That article represents the most aggressive school of thought when it comes to intervention for mitral valve problems. On a scale of 1 to 10, with a 0 being "We will NOT perform surgery on you," and a 11 being "You MUST have surgery NOW," the article is a "1." Jill's valve specialist in Cleveland (and the Cleveland Clinic generally) is probably a 3. He explained that the studies mentioned (he's familiar with all of them, and knows the author of the article I linked to personally) relate to patients with an average age in their 70's. Younger patients have more resilient hearts. He also stated that the science of treating valves has improved, improving the potential outcome for people having surgery now.

2. If we would elect to move forward with Jill's numbers, we'd be adopting a very "aggressive" approach (a "1" on the scale of "1" to "10,") but not a ridiculously aggressive approach. So what are her numbers? I had a chance to go over her entire chart today, back seven years. Since 1995, her mitral regurgitation has been, at best, moderate to severe, and, at worst, severe (as it is now). Her LVIDd has been stable at ~ 5.2 and her LVIDs has been stable at ~ 3.0. A LVIDd ~ 4.0 is considered worrisome under the very "aggressive" school of thought. She's nowhere near that. Her EF has hovered around 60. Today it was "60-65." An EF below 60 is considered worrisome under the very "aggressive" school of thought. Jill did 15 METS today on the treadmill! Last time, she had done 10. Anything less than 10 is worrisome under the very "aggressive" approach.

3. The odds of a successful valve repair in Jill's case have *risen* since our last two visits (1999-2000)! She has anterior leaflet prolapse, which is (was) tough to fix. We were originally given a 70-80% chance of repair. We were told that estimate is now too low, in light of recent advances in valve repair. The odds are now, *conservatively*, 80-90%, and may be higher depending on what Dr. Cosgrove says in the next few weeks. We were told we can basically make our decision about intervention assuming we'll get a repair. (Gary, this was somewhat vindicating, since the medhelp.org physician provided that low statistic regarding anterior leaflet repair).

4. If repair is impossible, the CCF, Jill would likely receive a Carpentier- Edwards Perimount Mitral Valve, not a mechanical valve. (http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/pdf/p860057s011.html). We were told that valve (made of bovine tissue) has been an amazing success in the aortic position and has had similar success in Europe in the mitral position. It is now an option (maybe the preferred option at CCF) for young women of *childbearing* age. It would not otherwise be CCF's preferred choice for a 30-year-old.

5. We were told we could have children pre-or post surgery. Our cardiologist has taken twelve women with hearts like Jill's through pregnancies without complications. He said the main risk was an A-Fib episode. He did not believe there was a significant risk of heart failure. He believed the risk of heart-related complications was very low (in the low single digits).

6. He fully supported our choice of Dr. Cosgrove as the surgeon (that's not a surprise). He said Dr. Cosgrove is one of the best 4 options worldwide for mitral valve anterior-leaflet repair. Since it's the closest of the 4 to our home, it's a no-brainer.

7. Jill would have a minimally invasive surgery, with a conversion to the full-monte only if necessary.

In the end, he told us this: The decision to more forward or not was Jill's to make. We are at a "1" on that "1-10" scale, and there was no reason at all to rush forward -- indeed, he probably would recommend waiting if we hadn't told him we were considering "getting it over with." That said, he placed the ball squarely in Jill's lap, and said he'd support whatever decision she'd make. According to him, with her current numbers, she should go in for surgery "when she feels like it," whether that's now, or any time in the coming years before her numbers markedly change for the worse.

We're going to relax for a little bit, go vacation in London, and then have a long talk about babies, sureries, etc. Right now, I believe we've done everything right up to this point. I'm relieved, and pretty proud of us. Five years ago, I didn't even know what a "mitral valve" was.

Again, if any of you want copies of the little "packet" of articles I took to Cleveland, I'd be happy to oblige. Message me here or e-mail me at [email protected]. Dr. Stewart has read all of them. He considers them valuable, but not dispositive.
 
Last edited:
Christian: As one surgeon, likely a 4,

Christian: As one surgeon, likely a 4,

told me in 2000, "The best surgical decision I can give you is 'No Surgery, for now'.

For some reason British 'cuisine' is an oxymoron, but the beer bars have the best bar treats on or off the continent.

Have a great time. I was able to put my surgery off for nearly a year even after diagnosis




72381433
 
.....continued.....

.....continued.....

and the new sense of 'risk', knowing that there would be with certainty, an operation of some importance in our near future made us relish the trips all the more and find the inconveniences and troubles of travelling 'all the less'.

Even got to like the treatment we got by a French waiter.


AVR;4/00; cosgrove; CCF; bovine pericardial
 
Gary:

I think we'll spend an inordinate time in the pubs. For some odd reason, my wife loves bad food.

Best part about our trip: the Steelers will be in camp by the time we get back. Autumn is my favorite time of the year.
 
Back
Top