Warfarin and Artery Calcification?

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J

JimChicago

I just came across an article that alledged a potential side effect of warfarin was artery calcification - here's a couple of articles they referred to. Just wondered if anyone has heard about this?


From:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10718864
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Int J Exp Pathol. 2000 Feb;81(1):51-6. Related Articles, Links


Warfarin exposure and calcification of the arterial system in the rat.

Howe AM, Webster WS.

Department of Anatomy, University of Sydney, Sydney, NSW, Australia.

There is evidence from knock-out mice that the extrahepatic vitamin K-dependent protein, matrix gla protein, is necessary to prevent arterial calcification. The aim of this study was to determine if a warfarin treatment regimen in rats, designed to cause extra-hepatic vitamin K deficiency, would also cause arterial calcification. Sprague-Dawley rats were treated from birth for 5-12 weeks with daily doses of warfarin and concurrent vitamin K1. This treatment causes an extrahepatic vitamin K deficiency without affecting the vitamin K-dependent blood clotting factors. At the end of treatment the rats were killed and the vascular system was examined for evidence of calcification. All treated animals showed extensive arterial calcification. The cerebral arteries and the veins and capillaries did not appear to be affected. It is likely that humans on long-term warfarin treatment have extrahepatic vitamin K deficiency and hence they are potentially at increased risk of developing arterial calcification.
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From:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9743228
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Warfarin causes rapid calcification of the elastic lamellae in rat arteries and heart valves.

Price PA, Faus SA, Williamson MK.

Department of Biology, University of California, San Diego, La Jolla 92093-0368, USA. [email protected]

High doses of warfarin cause focal calcification of the elastic lamellae in the media of major arteries and in aortic heart valves in the rat. Aortic calcification was first seen after 2 weeks of warfarin treatment and progressively increased in density at 3, 4, and 5 weeks of treatment. By 5 weeks, the highly focal calcification of major arteries could be seen on radiographs and by visual inspection of the artery. The calcification of arteries induced by warfarin is similar to that seen in the matrix Gla protein (MGP)-deficient mouse, which suggests that warfarin induces artery calcification by inhibiting gamma-carboxylation of MGP and thereby inactivating the putative calcification-inhibitory activity of the protein.
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Hmm - Seems like its a big jump from rats to us old codgers who already had rusty pipes when the valve starting acting up. My cardio is persistant in his effort to keep me on Statins even though most of them give me some real leg cramps. I'm still hoping for a pill that works as good as a roto rooter, then I can go run marathons with the rest of the young heros. The stuff they coat the new stents with will clean you out big time, but problem is - it is really dangerous stuff. Research is ongoing, so keep the faith. :cool:
 
Janie, your not thinking about changing over to bacon are you? ;) Most of the time I feel mechanical was the right choice for me. Yep, I have given up a lot...but hopefully this valve will give me a longer stretch between surgery. 30-1st, 55-2nd, if all works out my second valve will last me until I am 80. If I went tissue at 30...my clock may have run out at 60. Providing I could survive the 3rd. Ahhhhhh, decisions.

PS. Chris.......there was an article about statins and side effects floating around. Will see if I can find it for you. My mother had alot of the symptoms. Including leg pain. She read the article and decided to back off her statin. Within in 3 days everything had resolved. Now she needs to tell her doctor! I did not mean for her to stop cold turkey. That might have been my mistake for showing her the article!
 
If everything that looked good in rats actually became a drug, the pharmacy at WalMart would take up almost the whole store and all the other stuff would be crammed into an area the size of the pharmacy.

It is a big jump from rats to humans and another huge jump from arteries to mechanical valves. You would probably do yourself more good worrying about a UFO abduction.
 
I have some questions about this item (guess this is the journalist in me coming out!):

What constitutes "high" doses of warfarin in rats? How does this translate into doses for humans? And food for thought: How do you test INR in a rat to see if it is a "high" dose? After all, dose levels of warfarin vary greatly person to person, based on many factors.

How did these rats' diet compare to that of the typical warfarin patient?

Doesn't calcification occur independent of warfarin use? I'm sure there was a control group but what we see here doesn't compare the two groups.

Janie:
Bet ya could get a good dose of artery-clogging stuff at the Smokehouse down your way! MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMmm.
 
Marsha,

That was my question, too. What is "high"? How calcified were the arteries in the control group?

And for humans, what are the risks of staying coagulated vs. possible long term calcification if you're anti-coagulated?
 
Nobody knows the answers to these questions - no studies.

Many people on this site have taken warfarin for more than 25 years with minimal problems.
 
The facts...

The facts...

Johnny Stephens said:
Some of us didn't have the luxury of a choice.

'Luxury of choice' -- what's that? Neither did I Johnny.. I certainly wouldn't have chosen a mechanical valve... :( and that's what I've got!

Not a clue of a heart problem...doc said it was bronchitis. ER on Sunday, cath on Tuesday, valve on Thursday...never went home. That was before VR.Com existed. You newbies are so fortunate to have the time and resources available to you for research -- thank you Hankypoo!

Gina....you really think that mechanical is only going to last for 25 years? :confused:

Oh Marsha....those pork ribs are to die for! Well......not really. :eek:
 
I thought "high doses" of warfarin killed rats...

It is a long jump from a rat with a two-year lifespan to a human. And the term "high doses" would likely translate to an impossible dose for a human to withstand long-term.

While I'm not a proponent of Coumadin, I've not seen anyone noting trending of this type of arterial calcification from wafarin sodium use in human patients. I've known a number of people on Coumadin long-term, and their concerns have been for other heart issues, but not for petrified arteries.

I'd hate to see so many good people fret unnecessarily about a prescription they need to stay alive. Watch your INRs, and don't skimp on the requirements. Al has had a great deal of direct experience, and he isn't raising the alarm.

As far as calcification of mechanical valves, it should be noted that the #1 cause of tissue valve failure over time is calcification. And tissue valvers are a group of people who are much less likely to be on warfarin therapy. As such, it would be hard to ascribe calcium deposits on mechanical valves to the use of Coumadin anticoagulation therapy. Our bodies just like to coat everthing they can with calcium. It's like white paint in eastern Pennsylvania or northern Ohio - everything that doesn't move is covered with it.

Maybe we should be concentrating on advancing gene therapy, so we can get the body to coat all these things with Teflon instead...

Don't worry: be happy,
 
After I had surgery......surgeon points out that my new mechanical should last me 25-30. At my last vist......card stated 15-20 max. Adding the 5 years past.......this would bring the average to 25 years. I am not worried about it. It is what it is. "Every day above ground is a good day" :)
 
Well, since it's RAT POISON, shouldn't we expect RATS to have some serious side effects? :D I look at warfarin as a gift that keeps me alive. I will be interested to see if human studies are forthcoming, and will reserve my seemingly endless reservoir of panic for other things, LOL!

Gina M said:
"Every day above ground is a good day" :)

This is my new motto. Thanks, Gina!

Janie, by "luxury of a choice", I meant that not everyone's medical circumstances permit a choice. It's not that I had a choice that wasn't voiced to me, but given the best info available at the time, there was only one way to go. That's all. :D

Jim, BTW, thanks for posting the links!
 
ShezaGirlie said:
Not a clue of a heart problem...doc said it was bronchitis. ER on Sunday, cath on Tuesday, valve on Thursday...never went home. That was before VR.Com existed. You newbies are so fortunate to have the time and resources available to you for research -- thank you Hankypoo!

Amen, Sister Janie. Went in for repair and came out with mechanical. I was only 33 so I understand his decision, but I just wish I had informed myself better and communicated with him. No VR.com for me at that time. Thanks again, Hank.

:) :)
 
I must admit, the articles did shock me a little when I first read them...I thought..OH NO....now what do I eat to keep that away?...LOL... :eek:
I guess in all reality, most lab results do come from testing rats... and mostly it is all they have to compare with and test on. I would like to know what rates and what INR levels the rats were on and had. LOL.. and that is right...rat poison testing on rats...hmmm...LOL..kinda makes you laugh doesn't it? :eek: We all know there might be consequences with taking any drug, if it keeps us alive and gives us a quality of life, then I guess we shouldn't be too hasty to say it is all bad. I'm just happy to have my energy and strength back :D Once again on the choice of valves..there is no bad choice nor good choice..just the best choice for each individual person. ;)
 
Rats........smats!

Rats........smats!

Just had my arteries checked by two caths- one in neck one in groin and
echo of the neck
NO Calcium what so ever, pretty good for 43 years on warfarin- showed
studies to cardiologist- He agreed with Al- Rats prove nothing! He puts
more faith in real subject like me. Relax folks just another "warfarin scare Study" his words not mine.
 
33 years of coumadin and there is no turning back now. I do have vascular disease. Specialists said that I did not do a very good job selecting parents. Both of my parents had issues that I inherited. My valve disease was a result of rheumatic fever.

I am going to do what I can do,as long as I can do it!
 
Maybe not warfarin after all...

Maybe not warfarin after all...

Interesting article from the South African PaleoNews Service:

Claim made for new form of life
By Paul Rincon
BBC News Online science staff

Doctors claim to have uncovered new evidence that the tiny particles known
as "nannobacteria" are indeed alive and may cause a range of human
illnesses. The existence of nannobacteria is one of the most controversial of
scientific questions - some experts claim they are simply too small to be
life forms.

But US scientists report they have now isolated these cell-like structures
in tissue from diseased human arteries.

Their research is described in the American Journal of Physiology.

The team, led by Dr John Lieske at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, conducted
an analysis of calcified and non-calcified arteries, arterial plaques and
heart valves collected as surgical waste from two US hospitals.

In the lab, they stained the specimens and examined them under a high power electron microscope. The team found tiny spheres ranging in size from 30-100 nanometres (nm - billionths of a metre), which is smaller even than many viruses.

When the tissue was broken up, filtered to remove anything more than 200nm
and the filtrate added to a sterile medium, the optical density - or
cloudiness - of the medium increased. This, the researchers argue, means the nanoparticles were multiplying of their own accord.

"I think we've taken a systematic approach to evaluating the participation
of these potential nanoparticles, nannobacteria - whatever you want to call
them - in human disease processes," co-author Dr Virginia Miller, also of
Mayo Clinic told BBC News Online.

Spheres of influence

The particles are also recognised by a dye for DNA and absorbed uridine, a
key chemical component of RNA, which the researchers argue is evidence the
particles are constantly synthesising nucleic acids.

Viewed with electron microscopy, the particles also appeared to have cell
walls.

The nano-scale objects showed up in tissue from patients with calcified
arterial aneurysms but not uncalcified samples.

Nannobacteria have been implicated by some scientists in the formation of
kidney stones and psammona bodies - calcified (mineralised) structures in
ovarian cancer.

But many other scientists dispute that they are actually life forms.

"I don't see any convincing evidence for nannobacteria or DNA [in this
study]," Dr John Cisar, of the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda,
US, told BBC News Online.

"If you know you're dealing with a life form, you can use the staining
techniques [they used]. But there are false positives in these types of
techniques."

Dr Cisar said in research he had conducted, nanoparticles had tested
positive with a stain for nucleic acids. But when he and his team tried to
extract these nucleic acids, none had been found.

Previous research carried out by Jack Maniloff of the University of
Rochester in New York has shown that to contain the DNA and proteins it
needs to function, a cell must be a minimum of 140nm across.

"One of the questions we always get back is: 'well, how do you know it's
alive if it doesn't have a unique DNA sequence?' This is true," Dr Miller
explained.

"But if you go back to how we defined life prior to our knowing about DNA,
our criteria was that things multiplied in culture. This is what we have."

In 1996, nannobacteria came to the attention of the world's media when
scientists announced they had found fossils in a Martian meteorite of what
appeared to be nano-sized bacteria.

Scientists are now involved in efforts to isolate DNA from the
nanoparticles. Dr Miller said it was also important to investigate their
role in other diseases.

The research is also reported in this week's New Scientist magazine.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3729487.stm
 
Interesting article Tobagotwo - maybe those little critters are the culprit after all. Funny how Raymond Royal Rife was ridiculed when he postulated the nanobacteria idea 60 years ago.

From:
http://www.rense.com/general44/russell.htm
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This research has been confirmed by newer studies suggesting that bacteria reside in blood from healthy as well as sick individuals. These findings of tiny blood bacteria (nanobacteria) provide further evidence to support the theory that microbes can cause cancer.
Some other well-known scientists in the field of cancer microbiology include Gunther Enderlein, Royal Raymond Rife, Gaston Naessens and Wilhelm Reich. All have web sites devoted to their cancer research.
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