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HeartPart2

Ok..... Here is a situation!!
Its been 5 weeks since my surgery and I have had strange palpatations, so I have done the 24 hour monitor and go back on the 25th for my results. Here is the kicker... today I go in for my cardio rehab exercise meeting and the girl listens to my heart and can hear that all is not well in denmark, it beats reggae funky.. she tells me I might need to take blood thinners to smooth things out!!!! blood thinners??? Thats why I got the tissue valve in the first place! If this is this case I should've just gone man made and gone the distance. I dont know if this rings true in anybody's camp but this is not cool. I work with razor sharp knives all day long so I got a tissue valve because I'm 37 and I dont need the stress, this just isn't right?
 
I just had a tissue valve put in as well just shy of two weeks ago. My Dr. sent me home on coumadin for three months which I understand is pretty standard. He also sent me home on amiodorone (which I'm not necessarily thrilled with) just to keep those exact rhythm problems that you are having under control for three months as well. I haven't found coumadin to be any big deal so far.

Kim
 
Sorry but Coumadin is not a blood thinner. In fact there are no blood thinners. These are anticoagulants. It does not change the viscosity of your blood, but inhibits it's ability to clot.

Sounds to me like your having a bout of Afib and yes, Coumadin should be started if this is the case. It doesn't mean a lifetime of it, just until your heart stabilizes and is safe again. One of the things that everyone should know about is that Afib often happens after surgery, tissue or not, and will require Coumadin. Getting a tissue valve does not mean that you won't be taking it.

Your not going to die taking Coumadin and using knives. Your falling for hearsay myth. Plunge a knife deep into yourself and you might die Coumadin or not, but most people don't stab themselves intentionally. Lop off a finger or sever an artery and your in trouble no matter what. Somehow I don't think your crazy enough to do that.

P.S. I'm not yelling at you and reading this, it may seem that way. Just trying to put it in proper prospective.
 
Consider the source and try to calm down, please.

Your options are going to come from the monitor results and the cardiologist or surgeon who ordered the monitor, not from the "girl in rehab". Last week, I had a nurse advise me to take ibuprofen for the difficulty that 2 days later sent me to the hospital with pericardial effusion (funky heartbeat was not a symptom!).

Hope it turns out well. Keep us posted.
 
I expect there are more people on Coumadin for Atrial Fibrilation than because of Mechanical Valves.

Atrial Fibrilation is a COMMON 'disturbance' following Heart Surgery. It usually calms down after 2 or 3 months.

Many Doctors take the 'easy way out' and put their patients on the SLEDGE HAMMER of antiarrhythmics, Amiodarone, in spite of it's laundry list of dangerous side effects (if taken in too large a dose and / or for too long) and the fact that it takes MONTHS to be eliminated from the body once it is discontinued.

Several of the VR.com members (myself included) have had good success controlling A-Fib with SOTALOL which is the Generic Form of BetaPace. It is recommended that patients be admitted to a hospital for monitoring during the first few days of taking BetaPace / Sotalol, "just in case" you develop a dangerous Heart Rhythm as your body adjusts to this medication.

RELAX, "this too shall pass".

'AL Capshaw'
 
Go to this link and read it.
http://valvereplacement.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17116

Chances are you won't be on it for long because hopefully they will straighten you out. But you need to understand that if Coumadin was the "killer drug" and severely life-altering drug that many people like to describe it as, it would not be one of the most prescribed drugs in the world. There is nothing that I want to do and do not because of Coumadin.

If you have atrial fibrilation, that is your danger, not taking Coumadin. You can look at it as a decision process:

A. You can take Coumadin to keep the atrial fibrilation from forming clots that can go to your brain and kill you or cause a debilitating stroke

or

B. You can not take Coumadin so you don't bleed a few seconds longer if you cut yourself and place your hopes on not forming a clot that will either take your life or your lifestyle from you.

As with Ross - don't read those options as me yelling at you. I'm just giving you the true picture.

If they are talking about putting you on Amiodarone, I'd be greatly more worried about taking that drug than I would be taking Coumadin.

Best wishes. I hope they get you in normal rhythm soon.
 
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Im 10 weeks post op tissue valve replacement and I am still on anticoagulants:mad:
-but only for a short time. Alot of times even those of us with tissue valves will be on coumadin/Lovenox for ATLEAST 3 months postop. This is in case you get an arrhythmia after surgery (so the coumadin can decrease the chance of an embolism or clot) and there can be clotting around the area that is now healing .
So IF you have an arrhythmia you may need to be on anticoagulents for a
while, just until you go back into a sinus rhythm. This can happen on its
own or you can help it with certain meds(like Sotalol) ,and many other
options .
Im sure that all will be well with you and my blessings are with you also...:)
 
HeartPart2 said:
Ok..... Thats why I got the tissue valve in the first place! If this is this case I should've just gone man made and gone the distance. I dont know if this rings true in anybody's camp but this is not cool.

Kelly,

I'm in the same boat. Due to my life style, I too selected a tissue valve and accepted its potential risks (re-operation) to avoid the potential risks of anti-coagulation. I am about 6 weeks post op and I have been in A-fib (now A-flutter) for the last 3 weeks which requires me to be on Coumadin (to prevent possible stroke from clots), Atnolol (to reduce heart rate) and Amiodarone (an anti-arrhythmic). It's not what I wanted but I am hoping it is a temporary thing. I read that something like 30% of OHS patients get A-fib post op and most of those eventually return to a normal sinus rhythm.

From what I understand, there are many treatments for A-fib, but it starts with medications that help you reduce your heart rate and help you maintain sinus rhythm when you go back to a normal rate. If meds don't work they can do a cardio-version, finally if that doesn't work there are other procedures that are fairly successful.

My surgeon has suggested that I wait until 3 months post op to allow my heart to heal from the surgery and if I am still in A-flutter, he suggests that I do a cardio version (electric shock) to re-establish normal sinus rhythm. I plan to follow his directions.

So far Coumadin has not been a problem, although I still hope to be off of it eventually and live happily with my tissue valve. Nothing is guaranteed; we are all lucky to be where we are. I have no regrets.
Good luck,
John
 
"Many Doctors take the 'easy way out' and put their patients on the SLEDGE HAMMER of antiarrhythmics, Amiodarone, in spite of it's laundry list of dangerous side effects (if taken in too large a dose and / or for too long) and the fact that it takes MONTHS to be eliminated from the body once it is discontinued"

Can I just add to this thread that I am really tired of reading the constant dire warnings about how bad and horrible it is to be on this drug? After reading for months on VR.com about how awful it is and how dangerous it is, when I was coherent enough after surgery to realize they had put me on it, needless to say I was less than pleased. I questioned 3 very well respected, obviously well trained and knowledgable Dr.'s from the Mayo clinic not to mention my local cardio after I got home, about the wisdom of putting me on such a powerful, dangerous drug when others are available that might be able to do the job. They all assured me that they knew what they were doing, had much experience (much more than me one told me) in dealing with patients after heart surgery and how to most effectively keep them from entering what can be potentially deadly heart rhythms. They all assured me that a three month course of this drug far outweighs any harm that may come from it. Please be aware that sometimes when you pinpoint a specific drug or valve as having "dangerous side effects", you may cause some one to go against their doctors specific advice or turn down something that may actually save their life.

Just my opinion

Kim
 
Wow! You and I are almost precisely the same age (2 months) and we had our AVRs within 2 days of one another (I had a congenital bicuspid as well).

I went with the mechanical valve, and I'm pretty darn sure I'm not gonna regret it. My INR has been as high as 5.9, but when I had a blood draw with it that high, I bled a little longer (roughly 6 times longer :eek: ), but who cares. I'm happiest about the notion that the only times I should have to get my chest cut again is when my ICD battery runs low.
 
I am coming up to 8 weeks post op from getting a bovine valve. One of the reasons I chose tissue was to avoid ACT (not the only reason) and my surgeon and cardio both told me pre op I would be on coumadin for 2 -3 months regardless I got a tissue valve.

I saw my surgeon last week and he told me to take it two more weeks and stop. The only thing that has bothered me about being on coumadin is that I require a very high dose and I find that unsettling no matter what everyone has assured me. I know they are right about metabolism etc but I don't like stuffing so many mg's into myself daily and will be happy to stop taking it.....for now.

All us valvers have to accept there is always the chance we will be put on it in the future for a number of reasons.

Take a deep breath and wait to speak with your cardio before getting too upset. Honestly, it isn't the worst thing in the world but I understand your shock.


Good luck and let us know how it goes.
 
I want to thank you all for reading my rant and responding. After getting a good nights sleep I woke up a little more level headed, yesterday was just a bit overwhelming, ya know, when people tell you things that shock you. Lets face it, when people tell you things about something that was so life changing in the first place and you aren't sure of the outcome yet and then yet another curve ball gets thrown. It's a new day, for this I will celebrate. :)

Thanks again for all of your wisdom and understanding.
 
kfay said:
"Many Doctors take the 'easy way out' and put their patients on the SLEDGE HAMMER of antiarrhythmics, Amiodarone, in spite of it's laundry list of dangerous side effects (if taken in too large a dose and / or for too long) and the fact that it takes MONTHS to be eliminated from the body once it is discontinued"

Can I just add to this thread that I am really tired of reading the constant dire warnings about how bad and horrible it is to be on this drug? After reading for months on VR.com about how awful it is and how dangerous it is, when I was coherent enough after surgery to realize they had put me on it, needless to say I was less than pleased. I questioned 3 very well respected, obviously well trained and knowledgable Dr.'s from the Mayo clinic not to mention my local cardio after I got home, about the wisdom of putting me on such a powerful, dangerous drug when others are available that might be able to do the job. They all assured me that they knew what they were doing, had much experience (much more than me one told me) in dealing with patients after heart surgery and how to most effectively keep them from entering what can be potentially deadly heart rhythms. They all assured me that a three month course of this drug far outweighs any harm that may come from it. Please be aware that sometimes when you pinpoint a specific drug or valve as having "dangerous side effects", you may cause some one to go against their doctors specific advice or turn down something that may actually save their life.

Just my opinion

Kim

You raise a good point Kim. For Short Term Use (6 months MAXIMUM) with Proper and Regular Monitoring, Amiodarone is 'usually' safe.

We have read reports on VR.com where patients were "inadvertently" continued on Amiodarone for way longer than intended resulting in permanent injuries.

I have 2 concerns about using Amiodarone as the First Treatment for post-op Atrial Fibrilation.

First, the FDA has issued a WARNING that it should ONLY be used after other treatment options have proven inadequate. So why is it used as the First Choice so often?

Second, is that I suspect that patients are NOT fully informed about the treatment options and possible consequences of those options. Whatever happened to "Informed Concent"?

At the Very Least, it is MY belief that patients should be advised of the treatment plan, including Dose and Duration, along with potential side effects to watch for and report if observed.

Do these patients know what needs to be watched for?
An uninformed patient and overworked medical providers is a recipe for disaster. How many times have patients been continued on the High Loading Dose because someone 'forgot' to lower the dose after X weeks?

"Trust me, I am a Doctor" equates Doctors with GOD and PERFECTION.
I won't elaborate on those issues.

When I did a Google Search for "Amiodarone" I came up with 1,600,000 links.

Here are a few from the First Page, starting with the FDA ALERT:

Search

Amiodarone hydrochloride (marketed as Cordarone) Information


FDA ALERT [05/2005] – Pulmonary toxicity, Hepatic Injury, and Worsened Arrhythmia

Amiodarone may cause potentially fatal toxicities, including pulmonary toxicity, hepatic injury, and worsened arrhythmia.

Amiodarone should only be used to treat adults with life-threatening ventricular arrhythmias when other treatments are ineffective or have not been tolerated.

This information reflects FDA’s preliminary analysis of data concerning this drug. FDA is considering, but has not reached a final conclusion about, this information. FDA intends to update this sheet when additional information or analyses become available.

====================================

from :http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/amiodarone_wcp.htm

WARNINGS

Cordarone is intended for use only in patients with the indicated life-threatening arrhythmias because its use is accompanied by substantial toxicity.

Cordarone has several potentially fatal toxicities, the most important of which is pulmonary toxicity (hypersensitivity pneumonitis or interstitial/alveolar pneumonitis) that has resulted in clinically manifest disease at rates as high as 10 to 17% in some series of patients with ventricular arrhythmias given doses around 400 mg/day, and as abnormal diffusion capacity without symptoms in a much higher percentage of patients. Pulmonary toxicity has been fatal about 10% of the time. Liver injury is common with Cordarone, but is usually mild and evidenced only by abnormal liver enzymes. Overt liver disease can occur, however, and has been fatal in a few cases. Like other antiarrhythmics, Cordarone can exacerbate the arrhythmia, e.g., by making the arrhythmia less well tolerated or more difficult to reverse. This has occurred in 2 to 5% of patients in various series, and significant heart block or sinus bradycardia has been seen in 2 to 5%. All of these events should be manageable in the proper clinical setting in most cases. Although the frequency of such proarrhythmic events does not appear greater with Cordarone than with many other agents used in this population, the effects are prolonged when they occur.

Even in patients at high risk of arrhythmic death, in whom the toxicity of Cordarone is an acceptable risk, Cordarone poses major management problems that could be life-threatening in a population at risk of sudden death, so that every effort should be made to utilize alternative agents first.

The difficulty of using Cordarone effectively and safely itself poses a significant risk to patients. Patients with the indicated arrhythmias must be hospitalized while the loading dose of Cordarone is given, and a response generally requires at least one week, usually two or more. Because absorption and elimination are variable, maintenance-dose selection is difficult, and it is not unusual to require dosage decrease or discontinuation of treatment. In a retrospective survey of 192 patients with ventricular tachyarrhythmias, 84 required dose reduction and 18 required at least temporary discontinuation because of adverse effects, and several series have reported 15 to 20% overall frequencies of discontinuation due to adverse reactions. The time at which a previously controlled life-threatening arrhythmia will recur after discontinuation or dose adjustment is unpredictable, ranging from weeks to months. The patient is obviously at great risk during this time and may need prolonged hospitalization. Attempts to substitute other antiarrhythmic agents when Cordarone must be stopped will be made difficult by the gradually, but unpredictably, changing amiodarone body burden. A similar problem exists when Cordarone is not effective; it still poses the risk of an interaction with whatever subsequent treatment is tried.
=====================================

SIDE EFFECTS

Adverse reactions have been very common in virtually all series of patients treated with Cordarone for ventricular arrhythmias with relatively large doses of drug (400 mg/day and above), occurring in about three-fourths of all patients and causing discontinuation in 7 to 18%. The most serious reactions are pulmonary toxicity, exacerbation of arrhythmia, and rare serious liver injury (see “WARNINGS”), but other adverse effects constitute important problems. They are often reversible with dose reduction or cessation of Cordarone treatment. Most of the adverse effects appear to become more frequent with continued treatment beyond six months, although rates appear to remain relatively constant beyond one year. The time and dose relationships of adverse effects are under continued study.

Neurologic problems are extremely common, occurring in 20 to 40% of patients and including malaise and fatigue, tremor and involuntary movements, poor coordination and gait, and peripheral neuropathy; they are rarely a reason to stop therapy and may respond to dose reductions or discontinuation (see “PRECAUTIONS”).

Gastrointestinal complaints, most commonly nausea, vomiting, constipation, and anorexia, occur in about 25% of patients but rarely require discontinuation of drug. These commonly occur during high-dose administration (i.e., loading dose) and usually respond to dose reduction or divided doses.

Ophthalmic abnormalities including optic neuropathy and/or optic neuritis, in some cases progressing to permanent blindness, papilledema, corneal degeneration, photosensitivity, eye discomfort, scotoma, lens opacities, and macular degeneration have been reported. (See “WARNINGS”.)Asymptomatic corneal microdeposits are present in virtually all adult patients who have been on drug for more than 6 months. Some patients develop eye symptoms of halos, photophobia, and dry eyes. Vision is rarely affected and drug discontinuation is rarely needed.

Dermatological adverse reactions occur in about 15% of patients, with photosensitivity being most common (about 10%). Sunscreen and protection from sun exposure may be helpful, and drug discontinuation is not usually necessary. Prolonged exposure to Cordarone occasionally results in a blue-gray pigmentation. This is slowly and occasionally incompletely reversible on discontinuation of drug but is of cosmetic importance only.

Cardiovascular adverse reactions, other than exacerbation of the arrhythmias, include the uncommon occurrence of congestive heart failure (3%) and bradycardia. Bradycardia usually responds to dosage reduction but may require a pacemaker for control. CHF rarely requires drug discontinuation. Cardiac conduction abnormalities occur infrequently and are reversible on discontinuation of drug.

The following side-effect rates are based on a retrospective study of 241 patients treated for 2 to 1,515 days (mean 441.3 days).The following side effects were each reported in 10 to 33% of patientsGastrointestinal: Nausea and vomiting.

The following side effects were each reported in 4 to 9% of patients

Dermatologic: Solar dermatitis/photosensitivity.Neurologic: Malaise and fatigue, tremor/abnormal involuntary movements, lack of coordination, abnormal gait/ataxia, dizziness, paresthesias.Gastrointestinal: Constipation, anorexia.

Ophthalmologic: Visual disturbances.

Hepatic: Abnormal liver-function tests.

Respiratory: Pulmonary inflammation or fibrosis.The following side effects were each reported in 1 to 3% of patients

Thyroid: Hypothyroidism, hyperthyroidism.Neurologic: Decreased libido, insomnia, headache, sleep disturbances.

Cardiovascular: Congestive heart failure, cardiac arrhythmias, SA node dysfunction. Gastrointestinal: Abdominal pain.Hepatic: Nonspecific hepatic disorders.

Other: Flushing, abnormal taste and smell, edema, abnormal salivation, coagulation abnormalities.

The following side effects were each reported in less than 1% of patients

Blue skin discoloration, rash, spontaneous ecchymosis, alopecia, hypotension, and cardiac conduction abnormalities.

In surveys of almost 5,000 patients treated in open U.S. studies and in published reports of treatment with Cordarone, the adverse reactions most frequently requiring discontinuation of Cordarone included pulmonary infiltrates or fibrosis, paroxysmal ventricular tachycardia, congestive heart failure, and elevation of liver enzymes.

Other symptoms causing discontinuations less often included visual disturbances, solar dermatitis, blue skin discoloration, hyperthyroidism, and hypothyroidism. Postmarketing ReportsIn postmarketing surveillance, hypotension (sometimes fatal), sinus arrest, anaphylactic/anaphylactoid reaction (including shock), angioedema, hepatitis, cholestatic hepatitis, cirrhosis, pancreatitis, renal impairment, renal insufficiency, acute renal failure, bronchospasm, possibly fatal respiratory disorders (including distress, failure, arrest, and ARDS), bronchiolitis obliterans organizing pneumonia (possibly fatal), fever, dyspnea, cough, hemoptysis, wheezing, hypoxia, pulmonary infiltrates and/or mass, pulmonary alveolar hemorrhage, pleuritis, pseudotumor cerebri, syndrome of inappropriate antidiuretic hormone secretion (SIADH), thyroid nodules/thyroid cancer, toxic epidermal necrolysis (sometimes fatal), erythema multiforme, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, exfoliative dermatitis, skin cancer, vasculitis, pruritus, hemolytic anemia, aplastic anemia, pancytopenia, neutropenia, thrombocytopenia, agranulocytosis, granuloma, myopathy, muscle weakness, rhabdomyolysis, hallucination, confusional state, disorientation, delirium, epididymitis, impotence, and parkinsonian symptoms such as akinesia and bradykinesia (sometimes reversable with discontinuation of therapy), also have been reported with amiodarone therapy.
 
Kim, since you have a history of WPW, that may have been a reason to go straight to Amiodarone for you.

Having had a history of chronic arrhythmia pre-op (not post-op thank goodness) I came to learn that the stronger antiarrhythmic the worse the side effects tended to be. This is why I don't understand doctors going straight to the sledge hammer, when a ball-peen hammer may do the trick. For someone with a mechanical valve it presents an INR management problem as well.
 
My Buddy Terry with the chronic afib was put on it and left on it for YEARS. It has screwed up his liver. They took him off and tried various other drugs with limited results. Almost always reverting to afib again. Well he's back on the Amiodarone now and so far, it's done the best. Unfortunately, he's still suffering several rounds in which he's just been cardioverted for the 11 time. I anyone wants to talk about how tired they are of it all, they need to talk to Terry. He's dealt with this his entire life since being a baby and it's really getting him down.
 
amiodarone

amiodarone

since you guys are saying they can use other medications first to see if they work, i dont unde5rstand why they put adam on this as a first resort without trying something else first it is very upsetting because with everything that was going on in the hospital who had time to think about the medicines they were putting him on that i just thought were standard. now al says that 400 mg is a large dose and that is what they started him on now he is on 200 mg and i called and tried to get him off of it, and as of right now, they dont want to take him off, and i am very scared, had a severe reaction to something when i was 21, effected the rest of my life, so i have a reason. they only want him on it for 6 weeks, but we are going to the cardio tomarrow here and he wants to see what medications that he is on, maybe he will want to take him off of it, but do you guys think that other medications will always interact with it, or maybe you can get on something else and it will be ok. maybe this is what is causing the rectal bleeding. what do you guys think. also how many months does it take to get out of the system? thanks.
alpha 1
 
alpha 1 said:
since you guys are saying they can use other medications first to see if they work, i dont unde5rstand why they put adam on this as a first resort without trying something else first it is very upsetting because with everything that was going on in the hospital who had time to think about the medicines they were putting him on that i just thought were standard. now al says that 400 mg is a large dose and that is what they started him on now he is on 200 mg and i called and tried to get him off of it, and as of right now, they dont want to take him off, and i am very scared, had a severe reaction to something when i was 21, effected the rest of my life, so i have a reason. they only want him on it for 6 weeks, but we are going to the cardio tomarrow here and he wants to see what medications that he is on, maybe he will want to take him off of it, but do you guys think that other medications will always interact with it, or maybe you can get on something else and it will be ok. maybe this is what is causing the rectal bleeding. what do you guys think. also how many months does it take to get out of the system? thanks.
alpha 1

Only your doctor can answer this one. I just went and read the prescribing leaflet again it clearly states that the drug be used when other alternatives have not given results.
It's not causing his rectal bleeding, I'm almost 100% sure that's just an irritated pooper. Amiodarone takes up to 6 months to leave the system.
 
Heartpart2. One of the reasons i found this sight is because we was told my son would always need a mechanical valve. There maybe a chance now that they can repair his valve which iam praying will be possible. I know you are feeling better about it now but i can also understand how you feel. We wont have a choice of tissue, so if they can't repair we have no choice but mechanical. Although this site as helped me understand it more, it still scares me sometimes and seems like a lot to take on. At least it will only be for a short period of time, wishing you the very best and think how much worse it would be if you didn't have vr.com to come to with your concerns, all the best.
 
Hey Curtsmum .... I want to thank you for your input and compassion, sometimes we get engulfed in our own routine and it seems like the biggest thing happening on earth..... lets face it, my heart problem was surpassing global warming the other day. But I do take my hat off and I do express love and concern to you and yours and all in kind. I really wish you peace and all of the happiness that I know will soon come your way. NAMASTE!
 
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