Struggleing running with other runners

[RunMartin]

I had an appointment with my cardiologist last Wednesday. I told her I am swimming OK (not far off pre surgery levels) but when I run I am a lot slower and still struggle running on hills. This has not improved over the past few months and it feels like it will not improve much more. I went for a training run with some other runners from my club last week. These were steady runners but I could not keep up. The pace was steady but I was breathing very hard and it felt like the muscles were tightening up. I eventually turned back and jogged back to the start. I felt OK going at my pace and it also felt I could run with them if I met them later on (when I had warmed up). The cardiologist virtually said she (or her colleagues) do not have much experience with someone who was fit before surgery. She said most people see an improvement after surgery but they were not very fit before hand. Have any of you active "valvers" got cardiologist with experience with fitter patients and if so are they helpful with their advice on training.

 

[AgilityDog]

We have several valvers who ran before and after surgery. Bikers, too. It's the weekend and you'll probably have to wait for answers, so check back tomorrow.

I won't say I was fit before my MVR, but I ran dog agility with a slow dog. I got slower when my valve prolapsed, and much better afterwards, of course. Back to pre-surgical level for the most part.
Then I got a young fast dog and retired the old, slow dog (poor old dear can hardly walk 4 houses now).
No way in heck I could keep up with fast dog, even before my aortic valve got worse. Lots of 'healthy people can't keep up with her!
I'd say I'm fitter now than I was, but I had a lot of heart damage before mitral prolapse was discovered (long story). So do I expect to be able to keep up with other handlers? No. Not even the ones my age. But I can do things my way at my speed. A new normal.

That said, it can certainly take a year to fully recover after surgery.

 

[Guest]

when I run I am a lot slower and still struggle running on hills. This has not improved over the past few months and it feels like it will not improve much more.

You are 8 months post op, still recovering, do you think you may be overtraining? Just a thought. How many hills are you running and how steep are they? When I was training for Army 10 Miler, the first couple of times the last uphill home challenged my heart rate, pushing it into the 180s. I ran for the most part, walked up the rest and over time, I mastered the hill with my heart rate into the low 170s. Personally, I don't like hill work, I'd rather run flat and fast.

There's a hill back in Pennsylvania leading to my husband's parent's house, years before my surgery I couldn't run up the entire hill because it was a steady up hill climb, a bit steep for the fittest of runners. I'm going to try it this trip home in a couple of weeks, I'll let you know if I have mastered it. Hang in there and don't get discouraged.

I'm almost 3 years post op and I'm not as fast as I used to be. Since I've been training for Harrisburg, my times for 5 miles are improving, yesterday 45:30, two weeks before I ran a 44:58. I'd like to run a 40:00 but I am happy where I am at right now. Be flexible with your training and run smart.

I went for a training run with some other runners from my club last week. These were steady runners but I could not keep up. The pace was steady but I was breathing very hard and it felt like the muscles were tightening up.

It's good to run with others, but they have not had surgery so to guage against non-surgical runners this early in your recovery is not fair to yourself. Surgery really takes a toll on your body, don't let the small setbacks of not keeping up with others discourage you. You will get stronger, it's a slight modification of your pre-surgery training runs. Have you bought a heart rate monitor? I still think it's an important part to your post surgery running. Sorry to repeat but during my Army 10 Miler training, my husband and I put the heart rate monitor on him to see how different my heart was from a healthy heart. His heart rate was lower than mine but not by much. That gave me confidence.

I eventually turned back and jogged back to the start. I felt OK going at my pace and it also felt I could run with them if I met them later on (when I had warmed up).

"going at my pace" This is the key. I can run with faster runners, but I can't keep up with them after awhile because their pace is not mine. You will get better as time goes by, run your pace and pay attention to how you feel.

Have any of you active "valvers" got cardiologist with experience with fitter patients and if so are they helpful with their advice on training.

My cardiologist is the best I can ask for, he's not a runner but he understood before my surgery that I used to run marathons. I asked about my high heart rates during running, sometimes into the 180s. The advice I have been given is not to stay in the 180s, (I can't anyway for long)any sign of shortness of breath during running, chest pain, or anything out of the ordinary, I am to let him know. My heart rate still today will go into the 180s when I'm really pushing it, I'll back off a bit and let it drop to low 170s, and at the end of my runs, my average heart rate factors between 168 and 172, sometimes the highest rate is 183. My heart rate monitor gives the time, average heart rate and the highest heart rate, then total calories. As long as I'm not having any problems, I try not to worry so much about my heart rate. My legs can keep on going, it's my heart rate that causes me to slow down. My cardiologist could put me on a beta blocker but I'm not interested.

I wish you the best of luck going forward, you will get better, it just takes a little longer than we are patient for, especially if we love to RUN.

 

[Bean Counter]

Since you indicated that you were breathing hard, my guess that maybe you are running your runs too hard. One of the biggest mistakes that runners make is they do their runs too hard and they never properly recover from one workout to the next. Unless you are doing a tempo run, you should be running at a pace that would allow you to carry on a conversation.

I am 4 months post op and am doing all my runs solo so that I can run at whatever pace keeps my HR under 140. I would suggest making sure you are doing your runs at the proper pace. It may seem much slower at first, but hopefully you start seeing improvement from there.

 

[nate_c]

The only thing I can think to add is that you may want to invest in a heart rate monitor and/or GPS watch, if you haven't already. Sometimes it can be hard to sense gradual improvements, and a GPS watch might help you see even small improvements over time. Also, I've always been taught (and it's matched my experience) that breakthroughs tend to come in six week intervals. That is, you train hard and you may not feel you're getting anywhere, but after about six weeks of steady work, you suddenly experience some positive gains. Then you plateau for a while, your body adjusts to this new level, and the process starts over again. Of course, the better you get, the harder is to improve... Maybe you've just hit a little plateau in your recovery effort, and improvements are right around the corner...

 

[OldManEmu]

Martin are you on different medication now to presurgery, or on higher dosage.
While I am not a runner I did find that while I was on beta blockers I couldn't get my heart rate above 120's in a spin class.
I found my endurance wasn't that good either.

 

[RunMartin]

Thanks for your replies. I was surprised that the cardiologist could not help me at all with regards to my present state of health/fitness. I seem to still have good days and bad days - usually dependent on whether I have been overdoing it a little!


Lucy Lou. At present I walk the steep hills and I have been doing this for 7 months. I am no quicker to the top now than I was 6 months ago. The only real difference is I can do more but at the same speed. I have not really done long flat runs. Maybe I need to do this instead of the hills.

Bean Counter. Nearly all of my runs are solo but mainly on hilly ground. I am averaging about 7000 feet of climbing a week. I tend not to run with a heart rate monitor now as it seems to give false readings due to static from my clothes.

OldManEmu. When asked my cardiologist did say I would probably be on Bisoprolol beta blocker for the rest of my life (low dosage of 1.25 mg) - something to do with protecting the aorta for later life.

After what you have all said I am going to try and change my training routine to more easy running and less climbing.

Thanks
Martin

 

[SumoRunner]

Yes, the beta blocker will cost you time, slow your pace. Its purpose is to trim down the max HR so you'll feel greater exertion from the same pace.

I ran for a couple decades before AVR but I had no guidance post-op and even though I was back to easy training and casual racing, it was a few years before I tried running hard again.

 

[tprice54]

Just to add a note....your swimming porbably does not elevate your HR as much as running, so you notice this issue running, and the beat blockers do not help either. I can say, just for myself, it has taken 3 years to get even close to my speed from before surgery. You have to keep at it and not get discouraged.

 

[kodi]

Here is somethings about me that might help put things into perspective for you. I'm not much of a swimmer but my swim times are almost the same as pre-surgery, that is about 1500 meters in 35-40 minutes...if I keep up the training. I've started biking again and althoueemgh I'm not being real regular about it seems I'm about 1mph slower than before. If I put a little more time and effort, I could probably get back to where I was before. Now running: I started later in life at the age of 41. I started marathons at age 45 and ran two to four a year. At the age of 60 and if I trained properly, I was still running them in the 3:45 range. When I started having heart issues, my times started slowing from my normal 8:30 training pace to 9:00-9:30. One year pre-surgery I ran three marathons after the doctor told me no more. One was Boston in 4:40, St. George 4:24 and the other I don't have the time logged...duh! I ran my first post marathon 1 year 1 day post surgery in 4:57 (Oct 2007) and since have run a few more. I am getting slower all the time but partly due to the aging factor (I'm now 72). My training is usually around 10:30-12:00 pace, depending if I'm alone or running with (behind) my running club. My advice, take it easy, you have a long way to go for total recovery but do mix in some strides and short intervals but mostly listen to your body, it will tell you when it needs and wants rest. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress. Just for the record, I'm not on meds, except for 1 baby aspirin so I know nothing about the beta-blockers....thankfully.

 

[spartangator]

Lots of useful advice above, obviously, especially about the moderation and personal goals over comparisons to others.

If it helps you look down the line, at almost exactly three years out, I haven't found a difference--except that I'm actually doing more now. However, it was easily 18 months post-surgery before I felt close to normal without extra fatigue and weird recovery. You are very early in the process yet so keep going with the easy running and build things up.

Also, my cardiologist has said similar things about exercise and the lack of active patients. However, he does offer advice and tries to be patient with my desire to do whatever I want. Even though your cardiologist wasn't particularly able to help at this point, keep the conversations going so at least you can have her aware of your exercise along with your regular testing.