ProTime and vitamin K

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I

Igor

Just got my ProTime test unit today after lots of thinking and talking to all of you.
I was kind of surprised when I red in the ProTime Patient Manual that the following foods are reach in vitamin K: corn oil, eggs and oats. This contradicts to the information posted on http://www.coumadin.com/consumer/INT_VitaminK1.asp:
Oil, Corn (in 100 gm) ? 3.0 mkgm
Eg, fried ? 9.6 mkgm
Oatmeal, quick ?0.4 mkgm

As compared with
Broccoli ? 113 mkgm
Parsley, raw leaf ? 310 mkgm
Spinach ? 360 mkgm

Does anybody have any comments on it?
 
Best answered by Al Lodwick

Best answered by Al Lodwick

Igor,

I think you question will be best answered by Al Lodwick.

I am still waiting for my unit and I was not too surprised by the information you found in the user manual. All the of food items you've listed are on the "LOW" list in Vitamin K chart that I keep in my wallet. I copied it directly off of the Coumadin handbook that I received upon release. They categorize the foods in low-medium-high.

I can understand your confusion about the contradictions. However, I think there's Vit K in just about everything we eat anyway. The items you've mentioned have extremely small levels of Vit K. I eat oatmeal almost every day, have Soy Protein drinks and snacks, and an egg or two a week. We can't completely do without Vit K anyway, it's mainly the "levels" of Vit.K that we Coumadiners need to be aware of.

Hey Al, I finally read the article you posted about your son the golf pro. Have you ever taken up the game yourself? I will indeed work with Bob G. and perhaps someday we'll come out to Colorado and play his course. My son is planning to attend college in Durango next year, so I'll not have any excuses to visit.

Best regards,
 
Haven't got time for golf -- to many questions on vr.com !!! The murder case I have been working on has kept me from this site for quite a while too.

You can see a view of one the approaches to a green at Red Hawk Ridge at
http://www.successories.com/prodeta...roup_id=&theme_id=6&nav_id_browse=&sku=734896


Many of the natural oils are high in vitamin K. Fortunately we do not use enough of them to make much difference in our INR. Perry's list of greenvegetables contains about all that you need to be concerned about. Even an occasional overdoing it with them will make little difference. The main message is to not make any radical changes as far as vitamin K is concerned.
 
I Hope You Hung the Bastard!?

I Hope You Hung the Bastard!?

Al,

Thanks for the link. I believe I'll have to purchase that poster for my office. I will be able to say I know the father of the pro at Red Hawk Ridge.

Regards,
 
No, I'm on the defense. The deceased had a valve replacement and was taking warfarin. However, he didn't belong to vr.com and didn't take care of himself. There were no bruises on his head and he was very drunk. I think he injured himself but they charged his drinking buddy with murder. The trial is in October but there was a flurry of activity now in preparation.

If you are driving your son to Durango from Chicago, you will almost have to pass through Pueblo. Be sure to let us know. We live just off I-25 at the exit for the Royal Gorge but in the opposite direction.
 
Just a quick question regarding vitamin K. The nurse at the doctor's office nor the doctor have a firm answer on it.
I am wondering how rich in vitamin K sushi and chocolate.
 
I've never seen any report on anyone having a problem with either of these.
 
Consistently eat...... what ever you want.

Consistently eat...... what ever you want.

Igor,

I don?t worry a whole lot about how much vitamin K is in my food. I think as long as you eat pretty much the same stuff all the time... you?re being ?consistent?. My cardio keeps telling me my world will be fine if I?m just ?CONSISTENT?. This has proven to be true for me. :)

Hey Perry!

How cool! Your son is going to Fort Lewis College?! I only live 45 miles from Durango. I would be more than happy to help him out if he ever needs anything. :) My boys drive right through Durango on their way home from college.... he could catch a ride to Cortez and back for a visit sometime. :) He?ll love Durango.

We should have a VR.Com reunion in Colorado sometime!! Everyone would love it here.. I promise!
 
Rain,
We are going to Pagosa on Wednesday. We need to soak in the healing waters. Hope the smoke doesn't mix with the sulfur from the springs to eat our lungs out. It was extremely smoky in Denver yesterday. Signs flashing all along the roads, "No campfires" "No fireworks." We have had less than 2" of precipitation all year. The prairie never did turn green this year.

Is Ft. Lewis still the smallest state college in the US? It must have the most beautiful setting - up on that mesa.
 
Colorado

Colorado

Hey Al,

I don?t think the smoke will be too bad in Pagosa. Pagosa is about the same distance from Durango as Cortez is. There have been a few days when it was a little uncomfortable to be outdoors, but mostly the skies are just hazy. They have brought some of the sickly and elderly to the Cortez and Mancos Nursing homes. It?s pretty bad in Durango. The fire has now burned over 71,000 acres. I heard on the news last night that the Valley Fire is 100% contained and the Missionary Fire 40%. So things are looking up.

Now that sulfur in Pagosa is another story..... Stinky! lol. But it doesn?t always smell ... maybe you?ll be lucky. :) Have you visited the hot springs in the winter? It?s really cool! They have hotels with the rooms attached to outdoor hot springs.

And then you might as well come on over and visit Mesa Verde National Park. lol They have the most fantastic Indian ruins... very interesting place to visit. The mesa butts up against our family farm. We used to hike all over it when I was a kid.

I?m not sure if Fort Lewis is still the smallest state college. I know it?s sure tiny in comparison to CSU where my boys are. It?s a high quality college, with a beautiful setting. The ?Old Fort? is still standing... it was built in 1880 near Hesperus, about twenty miles this side of Durango. If Perry?s son likes white water rafting, canoeing, hiking, snow or water skiing, etc. he will absolutely love Durango. All of that is within walking distance. :)

Can you tell I?ve lived here all my life? lol
 
We were staying in the Farview Lodge at Mesa Verde one night. There were these two women sitting on the deck of the other side of the duplex cabin. It was way after midnight and they were just yacking up a storm. I wanted to get up before daylight to get some pictures when the sun came up. I slid the door open very quietly and waited a minute to be sure that they hadn't heard me. The yacking continued. I made a noise that was a cross between a loud snore and a snarl. The chairs tipped over, the floor trembled as they ran inside and the door slammed. There wasn't even a sound from the other side of the cabin the rest of the night. I tried not to lol, but I got some sleep. I'll bet that they didn't though.
 
Skin walkers

Skin walkers

They probably thought you were a ?skin walker?. LOL

It even scares me when the Indians start talking about skin walkers.

Have a great trip!!
 
Reunion location

Reunion location

Oh, please do consider a reunion in the not-too-distant future in Durango/Silverton/Telluride/Ouray/Montrose/Salida or any of those wonderful places! Las Vegas is the last place we'd want to go since we aren't interested in gambling or drinking. We absolutely love the Colorado Rockies and have visited those areas several times. My uncle lived in Durango and wintered in T or C NM for several years until his age made the move twice a year too much trouble. He now loves in T or C year round, and square dances 4 or 5 nights a week. Maybe that's why he's 92 years old and healthy!
 
protime and vitamin K

protime and vitamin K

Hi Igor,
I too just got my new unit and also read with amazement the food chart of high vit K foods. What a laugh. You'd think that they would check out their info before entering it in their gudid. I intend to write a note to these people about updating that page. Maybe if we both write they'll get the message about how wrong they are. I was also reading in a recent issue of Prevention magazine that people on blood thinners shouldn't drink green tea. I wrote them and told them that it was only a problem if they drank the tea leaves (and lots of them) - just drinking the liquid has negligible amounts of Vit K, and to check the coumadin website for their information next time. They quoted two different sources that were supposed to know all about Vit K, but obviously do not understand about steeping tea. Still haven't heard from them. About sushi, I eat it occasionally, and on those days do not have salad or vegies high in Vit K just to be on the safe side. They do show kombu on the coumadin charts, which is what I put in my miso soup when I cook it, but it's such small amounts that I don't worry. Anyway, maybe the saki and green tea (without the tea leaves) will cancel out the Vit K in the sea weed.
Sharon
 
Hi Sharon,

Thanks for the update on sushi. I actually like to eat sashimi that should not be any problems in terms of vitamin K, however miso soup and see weed might have some of it.
Also, I do not mind to write to ProTime manufacturer or whoever wrote the manual, just let me know where to. I actually made a really bid deal when I called them but it does not mean they will do anything. Congratulations on your ProTime system. Have you been trained yet? I have been having different test result reading between my test unit and the unit in my doctors office. On my opinion it?s kind of a significant difference which is 0.5.
I have talked to tech support twice and they now in agreement with me.
I have tested my system with the docs system twice and both times my unit showed 0.5 higher result. According to the ProTime tech support the problem might be in different cuvettes. I am using one channel cuvettes and the docs office is using 3 channel cuvettes.
Let me know how is your ProTime working.
 
Hi Igor,
Yes, I noticed that you had that big difference - I think I posted a note to you at the time and said that it sounded like too big a difference. Yes, I had the training the last 2 weeks. I got really nervous and had to try twice with each test. I go this week to the lab and will test again to see how accurate my machine is. Will let you know what happens. Am sending a note to the manufacturer about the VitK foods list today - who knows how long it will take them to figure it out and change it. I have the test that is the 3 track. Lance said it was good because you needed less blood. Maybe the 5 track is better. Also, the nurse that gave me the telephone instructions said that our test should be done not more than 10-15 minutes after the lab test is done. I'll let you know what happens.
Sharon
 
The following info is from this site:

http://www.labtestsonline.org

I thought it was interesting, especially what it has to say about what things interfere with the INR results.


Prothrombin Time

Also known as: PT, Pro Time
Formally known as: Prothrombin Time
Related tests: Partial Thromboplastin Time (PTT), Activated Clotting Time (ACT), Activated Partial Thromboplastin Time (APTT), Prothrombin Consumption Time (PCT), Fibrinogen, Coagulation Factors


At A Glance

Why get tested?
To check how well blood-thinning medications (anti-coagulants) are working to prevent blood clots.

When to get tested?
If you are taking an anti-coagulant drug or think you may have a bleeding disorder

Sample required?
A blood sample drawn from a vein in the arm

Frequency of testing?
Regularly, as your doctor advises


The Test Sample

What is being tested?
The PT test measures how long it takes your blood to begin to form clots. Prothrombin is a plasma protein produced by the liver. Clotting is caused by a series of chemical reactions, including the conversion of prothrombin to thrombin. The test to measure this clotting factor is called Prothrombin time or Pro time or PT.

How is the sample collected for testing?
Blood is collected by needle from a vein in the arm.


The Test

How is it used?
The Prothrombin time (PT) test is most often used to check how well anti-coagulant or ?blood-thinning? drugs are working. Anti-coagulant drugs help prevent the formation of blood clots. This is particularly important in people who have had a heart attack or other problems with their veins. The drug?s effectiveness can be determined by how much it prolongs the prothrombin-to-thrombin conversion time.


When is it ordered?
If you are taking an anti-coagulant drug, your doctor will check your PT regularly to make sure that your prescription is working properly and that your PT is appropriately increased. There is no set frequency for doing the test. Your doctor will order them often enough to make sure that the drugs are in the appropriate dosages. Occasionally the PT test may be used on a patient who is not taking anti-coagulant drugs?to check for a bleeding disorder or to ensure clotting ability before surgery.


What does the test result mean?
The test result for PT depends on the method used; results will be measured in seconds.

Most laboratories report PT results that have been adjusted to the International Normalized Ratio (INR). Patients on anti-coagulant drugs should have an INR of 1.2 to 1.5 for basic ?blood-thinning? needs. For some patients who have a high risk of clot formation, the INR needs to be higher: about 1.5 to 2.0(***people with mechanical heart valves will need a much higher INR, possibly 2.5 to 3.5***, note from Nancy). Your doctor will use the INR to adjust your drug to get the PT into the range that is right for you. A prolonged, or increased, Prothrombin time means that your blood is taking too long to form a clot. If you are not taking anti-coagulant drugs and your PT is prolonged, additional testing may be necessary to determine the cause. Patients with liver disease often have a prolonged PT.


Is there anything else I should know?
Some substances you consume?such as alcohol and different drugs?can interfere with the PT test and give a misleading result. Antibiotics, aspirin, and cimetidine can increase PT. Barbiturates, oral contraceptives and hormone-replacement therapy (HRT), and vitamin K?either in a multivitamin or liquid nutrition supplement?can decrease PT. Make sure that your doctor knows all the drugs you are taking so that the PT results are interpreted correctly.



Common Questions

1. Can I do this test at home?
Yes. The Food and Drug Administration has recently approved a home test. Ask your doctor whether home testing is appropriate for you.


2. Should I have it done at the same time of day?
Yes. Not only should the test always be done at the same time of day, but anti-coagulant medication should be taken at the same time each day. This way, your doctor can get the most consistent and accurate assessment of your PT results and adjust your medication so that you are getting the correct dose.


3. My PT results vary sometimes, yet my doctor doesn?t change my prescription. Why?
The use of any of the drugs mentioned above can alter your results, as can the use of diuretics and antihistamines and the onset of illness or allergies. Certain foods, such as beef and pork liver, green tea, broccoli, chickpeas, kale, turnip greens, and soybean products contain large amounts of vitamin K and can alter PT results. The blood collection technique and the difficulty in obtaining the blood sample can also affect test results.
 
Last edited:
INR Mechanical Valve

INR Mechanical Valve

The recommended INR for those of us with mechanical valves is

2.5-3.5
 
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