post (minor) surgery recovery dose & INR

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pellicle

Professional Dingbat, Guru and Merkintologist
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Hi

just feeling a little confused here, so I thought I could ask some opinions and advice.

Pre surgery I was asked to go off warfarin. I was off for 3 days.
I'm about a week out of a debridement operation and was put back on warfarin after I got out of ICU. The surgeon decided to dose me at 7mg and monitor my INR.

Pre surgery my dose has been 7.16mg (delivered as a cycle of 7, 7, 7.5 repeating) which had kept my INR around 2.5 +- 0.1 stably for some months.

My INR has been creeping up slowly: 1.7, 1.8, 1.9, 2.0

So the dr decides to drop an 8mg and my INR went up to 2.5 the next day.

This is where the question comes in. The dr then prescribed 4 as my next dose. I thought WTF and asked for reasons. I was given none. So I thought about it and decided to add 3mg out of my own stash and make it 7 without making a fight about it.

Next morning my INR was checked (which is another small rants in itself) and it was found my INR was 2.3 which to me vindicated my choice. We had a discussion about this and I came clean about my taking matters into my own hands. The Dr didn't seem worried (well like I'm now within my therapeutic range), but has prescribed 4mg again for tonight.

Why? What could he be trying to do? What reason can anyone here see to do that?

As far as I can see it will only result in my INR dropping out of range again. My surgeon has prescribed my range as being between 2.2 and 3

Suggestions or thoughts welcomed
 
The only thing that makes sense to me here is that your doctor temporarily wants to have you at around 2.0 for a few days so that the surgical area doesn't seep (or doesn't seep as much). The goal wasn't to put your INR back into therapeutic range just yet -- the goal was to keep you slightly below that range, while still somewhat protected, while your wound healed.

Research has shown that we valvers can be below 2.0 for a few days (perhaps a week or more) without negative consequences. The fact that the INR is being closely monitored shows that the doctor doesn't want your INR to drop TOO low, but suggests that he DOES want it slightly below therapeutic range for a few days.

At least, that's how it appears to me.

As far as frequent tests being a problem while you're on lower dose -- perhaps your lab should use a meter rather than a blood draw. OTOH - the blood draw at a competent lab is the gold standard, and if you're working with a lower than usual dosage and trying to keep in a particular sub-therapeutic range, testing more often than usual doesn't seem like a bad thing.

(One other thing to consider - the dose you take today will not have full effect for three days - at this point, I'd trust the doctor and realize that the temporary goal was probably NOT to bring your INR right back to 2.5)

Anyway - I'm just guessing here, but this seems, to me, the only way this would make a lot of sense.
 
Thanks for the reply.

The debridement is an open wound and there is a VAC dressing in place.

The doc could do something weird like tell me about why.

Why the dose of 8 then back to 4 if at 7mg I was bumping along well enough at near 2 anyway?
 
A couple of points for you good mate.

1. Dosage changes made today affect INR in about 3 days time, so this makes dosing tricky, as you are often behind the game, trying to project changes and trends, and while a particular dose change is taking effect all manner of things can happen to also conspire to change INR (like diet, level of activity, etc)..so sometimes its not a mathematical process, unfortunately, unless you subscribe to chaos theory...:)

2. Your surgeon has a target INR, but that does not mean he is absolutely right for all instances, as your intensivist will have the bigger and more current situation in mind, such as your wound etc... and it may be a case of the Dr weighing up things like should your INR be temporarily lower at this stage, or slightly higher at another stage... for a myriad of reasons. Your surgeon has a prescribed range of 2.2 and 3....(mmm, an interesting range?) but it would seem that another surgeon (from the same medical school) will prescribe an INR range of 2-3, and another surgeon may prescribe 2.5-3, or whatever, its not so much about exact numbers, but having a reasonable target range for your particualr situation, and sometimes that depends on lots of variables. When I asked, my suurgeon said my target is 2.4385 ...said with all seriousness initaially, then breaking out into laughter once the nurse started to write it down on my chart...Trust me, some people's INR can vary wildly from 1 to 10 (or more) in just a very short time, and they require hospitalisation and treatment to normailse things again. You may be unduely concerned about your fluctuations that aren't actually that bad at all....honestly, you are relatively young and otherwise fit, but now there are competing challenges with your clotting... avoid a clot being thrown off your heart valve, and avoiding bleeding from your chronicly infected sternal wound...your INR might "drop our of range" as you say, but its not a switch... its not a case of its ok within range, lethal just out of range....not at all, and in fact your INR changes are really quite reasonable, and aren't worth being overly concered about at this stage...it will settle down again no doubt.

3. Some medical staff, (and this doesn't excuse the lack of this Drs explanation), have brains that turn at a million miles an hour and they simply don't explain things in terms that different patients can always follow... we all have positives and negatives, and sometimes the correct medical decisions just aren't easily explained by all Drs in all instances...I'm not offering an excuse for the Dr not explainig things, its just a possible explanation. He might well have been incorrect by changing teh dose in that manner, but may have been absolutely spot on... given what he knows about yuor current condition, your current clinical course, what his expereince has been, and weighing up all the risks etc. If you are so concerned, you may be bettter off getting a second opinion rather than changing doses secretly, but be aware that the second opinion may come from a doctor who doesn't have posession of all your particualr facts...so it can be difficult I know.

4. I was lined up for an operation unrelated to my heart surgery a couple of months after my valve operation while I was still on warfarin...(fortunately it was a false alarm and I didn't end up needing the operation), but the plan was to admit me to hospital, stop my warfarin, get me onto heparin, and just prior to the surgery, reverse my heparin by giving me protamine (so I didn't bleed "like a stuck pig" during surgery), and then get me back onto heparin, and wean my off heparin and back onto warfarin when it was clear I was not bleeding. This is sometimes not an exact "cook book" approach, but it needs to be individualised depending on a range of risks, side effects, the type of surgery and so on...

5. It is risky "self dosing" with warfaarin, honestly good mate. Mind you, its a bit confusing trying to follow the sequence of your events, does "dropped" a dose mean "missed" the 8mg dose, and trying to work out when you had the debridement or if you need another debrdement, and also not knowing what other medications you were taking, and so on. Also, I'm not sure why you say your dose was "7.16mg", as thats not really the case at all, it was in fact a cycle of 7,7,7.5, and you just can't average that out as 7.16 or 7.17 or whatever. It seems to me that maybe you are trying to think like an engineer, (and I'm not being rude whatsoever, so please don't be offended... I did study engineering a long time ago), when in actual fact it is not an exact science, dosing can depend on the Drs experience, and weighing up your risks, and your circumstances...bed ridden in ICU one week, walking the wards the next week or whatever, an operation one week, maybe anotehr operation, or maybe not ...etc etc ...you just can't always apply a mathematical formula, and you don't have to be exactly with your target INR range 100% of the time...

So...without knowing all your facts, or all the medications or all the circumstances, and I say this with all encouragement and support...and with no malice or criticism whatsoever...you may be worrying about nothing...your INR range may in fact be absolutely fine...and I definately would avoid self dosing your warfarin...at this stage, given your tricky situation with an infected sternum wound....

I know that won't help much I'm sorry, but I do know that the majority of medical staff where you are are indeed first class...quirky sometimes, difficult personalities sometimes, but generally superb, and if you are concerned, just say to the particular doctor, "I'm really not so sure about that dose, honestly Doc, I don't feel really comfortable with that dose, so can I just talk this over quickly with the senior intensivist please...please don't be offended, but I know its not a exact science, but I would feel better if I could just get confirmation so I can sleep better tonight".

Actually I would be more concerned if its a Junior Registrar (ie a trainee) making the changes to doses as opposed to a Senior Intensivist...in fact I would have infinatly more confidence in the advice of a Senior Intensivist, seriously.

I had to this tactic a couple of times, with nurses and doctors ...."Excuse me nurse, but please, please don't change that setting just yet, thats my temporary pacemaker and doctor "so and so" has specifically set it with something in mind, so please, can we double check with him first before you change that, just in case"... (The upshot of that episode was a stern instruction from doctor "so and so" to the nurse involved ..DON'T YOU EVER TOUCH A TEMPORARY PACEMAKER ON MY PATIENTS IN THIS HOSPITAL AGAIN WITHOUT SPEAKING TO ME FIRST)...phew, I survived that near miss, as the temporay pacemaker was being "adjusted" because "it doesn't seem to be working"....when in fact it was keeping me alive!

Without warfarin our INR is typically somewhere between 0.7 and 1.3, or thereabouts, but it will change with hydration state, activity, diesease etc. An INR somewhere between 2 and 3 is a typcial target range to slow or manage clot formation, or more likely somewhere between 2.5 and 3, but that doesn't mean that a disaster will occcur if your INR fluctuates, especially while in hospital when you are less likely to have a car crash or some trauma that can cause a serious bleeding event...but you have a nasty wound, with who knows what stage that healing process is at, so who knows what the doctor has in mind....take care good mate, I'm sorry if I have confused you or misread your original post...soi I just re-read your post again, and givven that you have such a nasty sternal wound, and without knowing what the extent of your wound debridement was, I don't think I would have been quite as concerned about what the doctor was proposing with your warfarin dose...honestly.

But I know its different when its your body they are playing with....so I hope that ramble of mine helps you a little bit perhaps.

BTW, are you still in the same hospital? Get well soon, the surf is up and once the rain stops the surfing will be awesome...I know, maybe not in the surf for you just yet, but it won't be long before you can hang ten again. I'm into stand up paddle boarding, a little more sedate and not as much skill required as riding a short board..:)
 
Hi

A couple of points for you good mate.

1. Dosage changes made today affect INR in about 3 days time, so this makes dosing tricky,

definately, but I had thought it slightly more complex, with it being more of a curve and the accumulation of residual minus the half life of the compound which I thought was two days. based on this i built a quick model of this in excel which i use for my model of dose prediction.



, unless you subscribe to chaos theory...:)

you've seen my house, right?

:)

2. Your surgeon has a target INR, but that does not mean he is absolutely right for all instances

Sure, its not engineering its chemistry with buffering and homeostatic mechanisms ....

Understood :)


....not at all, and in fact your INR changes are really quite reasonable, and aren't worth being overly concered about at this stage.

That's good to hear. Isolation does things to me.


Without warfarin our INR is typically somewhere between 0.7 and 1.3, or thereabouts, but it will change with hydration state, activity, diesease etc

Nice to know. I had assumed it to revolve around 1 (it being a ratio and all)


without knowing what the extent of your wound debridement was,

http://cjeastwd.blogspot.com.au/2013/02/more-tough-love.html

....so I hope that ramble of mine helps you a little bit perhaps.

It has, thanks :)


BTW, are you still in the same hospital?
Yep

Get well soon, the surf is up and once the rain stops the surfing will be awesome...I know, maybe not in the surf for you just yet,

Correct, ant that's just so unfair :`(

. I'm into stand up paddle boarding, a little more sedate and not as much skill required as riding a short board..:)
Been eyeing that off and been wondering about it.

Looking forward to getting back to Finland and getting into some cross country (and not tracks, real cross country, broken poles and swearing at the stuff) skiing again.

koivusuoTrackEntry.jpg


koivusuoSled.jpg


koivusuoTrackHome.jpg
 
Just chatted with the surgeon, seems he was targeting the same inr as me but was concerned about overshooting and used the coaguchek reading of the previous day to assume it was rising too fast.

This has been shown to not be the case and to me highlights the need for proper training in the administration of coaguchek testing.

The nurse who took the reading was highly advice averse, she after all has been doing it for years. The question of "have you ever compared your results with vienus blood samples to cross reference " was taken not taken appropriately if you ask me
 
"Sure, its not engineering its chemistry with buffering and homeostatic mechanisms ...."...Nah, thats not all. You forgot to add in some witchcraft and sourcery, and just good luck. Let alone all manner of other complex metabilic processes.

"Proper training" you say, arghhh, in health care, what planet are you on good mate :)

We could only wish this was the case, and you will usually have tolook far and wide for a nurse willing to give medical advice about warfarin levels...I'm not being mean to nurses, not for a moment, but she knows better than to enter the warfarin debate.
I had hearfd that QML and otehr pathology services had chenged their billing of warfarin checking whilst patients are still admitted, so I wonder if thats why they are using the coagcheck to get your INR....mmmmm, I just wonder.
But really, they were doing the right thing, they certainly didn't want to overshoot your INR given your particualr procedure.

Now, don't sneak secret doses of warfarin again ok...be a good boy and do what you are told,...and stop trying to think like an engineer...no amount of spreadsheet predications, curves, residuals and half lives are going to help in this situation...it will confuse all and sundry, honestly.

Now, I have never been to Finland, but guess where I am planning my next holiday....The Simpson Desert! (seriously), not on my stand up paddle board, but in my 4wd of course. :)
 
does it really come across that I take an analytical cognitive approach to most things?

Dang I thought I'd managed to mask it and seem more like a 'woodford folk festival tie dye iridology' type

hmm, the Simpson hey? Look forward to the tales from that journey :)

PS I promise I'll be good and do what I'm told to. Hopefully I get out tomorrow anyway...
 
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