Natural Anti Coagulants?

[Nesphito]

Are there any foods or drinks out there that will naturally raise INR? Alchohol? Fenugreek? Any personal experiences?

I’m not worried about raising my INR, but I’m really interested in the topic and was curious if anything actually raises it.

 

[Chuck C]

Are there any foods or drinks out there that will naturally raise INR? Alchohol? Fenugreek?

Alcohol will rais INR. For most people, myself included, moderate drinking hardly moves it at all. I have noticed a little movement on the rare occasions when I drink considerably, such as after a wedding one time.

Drinking grapefruit juice will send INR through the roof. Those on warfarin should avoid grapefruit, as it messes with the clearance of INR. However, there is one member who reports that he can eat small amounts of whole grapefruit without any change. Personally, it is a good excuse for me to avoid the stuff completely, as I don't like it much anyway

 

[Survived03]

If you are interested in how grapefruit blunts drug metabolism.

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consu... drugs are broken down,much drug in your body.

 

[Buck83]

I have had small increases with cayenne pepper supplement. I recently tried to take a resveratrol supplement and it sent me sky high.

 

[pellicle]

I’m not worried about raising my INR, but I’m really interested in the topic and was curious if anything actually raises it.

All those mentioned above.

Just as a caution, don't try to substitute them for warfarin.

It so happens that if Warfarin is impossible to find (say, a Zombie apocalypse) I have a plan
https://www.valvereplacement.org/threads/what-happens-if-i-sever-my-finger.887408/post-894887

But seriously don't do it

PS: INR is not the be-all and end-all of measurement of "bleeding tendency" indeed you can bleed like a stuck pig and have an INR that's less than 2 on direct Xa inhibitors and still die from the stroke because they are insufficient to actually stop clots forming in the wrong places (like your brain).

This is actually why they stopped the trials for Dabigatran.

Current FDA guidelines states that patients with mechanical heart valves should not be using dabigatran. The safety and efficacy of Pradaxa (dabigatran) were evaluated in the European RE-ALIGN trial in 2012. RE-ALIGN was terminated early because the Pradaxa treatment group had significantly more thromboembolic events and major bleeding than warfarin and determined to be contraindicated for use in patients with mechanical heart valves.[20]​

 

[Nesphito]

If you are interested in how grapefruit blunts drug metabolism.

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/grapefruit-juice-and-some-drugs-dont-mix#:~:text=Many drugs are broken down,much drug in your body.

Interesting! I wonder if a mix of alchohol and grapefruit juice would make your INR jump up much higher.

It so happens that if Warfarin is impossible to find (say, a Zombie apocalypse) I have a plan
https://www.valvereplacement.org/threads/what-happens-if-i-sever-my-finger.887408/post-894887

I told my prepper dad that in the event of an apocalypse I’ll be one of the first to die. I said this even before I was taking warfarin. I just don’t have delusions of grandure in an event like that.

Don’t worry btw I’m not looking to supplement warfarin. What sparked this conversation was talking about the apocalypse with my dad. Although I’m not paranoid about a worldwide apocalypse right now. Maybe realistically a warfarin shortage in a big global warming event.

It sounds like you could do a super low dose of grapefruit juice and warfarin to make it last longer, but that’s not a permanent solution.

 

[pellicle]

Interesting! I wonder if a mix of alchohol and grapefruit juice would make your INR jump up much higher.

basically don't

https://cjeastwd.blogspot.com/2021/05/grapefruit-and-warfarin.html

It sounds like you could do a super low dose of grapefruit juice and warfarin to make it last longer, but that’s not a permanent solution.

bad idea because its not controllable

lots of things seem like good ideas but aren't

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JATO_Rocket_Car

If you did a science degree (esp chemistry) you'd have learned that care and gentle approach is desired to avoid this classical non-linear response curve:

you don't want the bad areas so keep the inputs under strict control (and avoid things like grapefruit and other blood thinners ... don't go "herbal"

 

[Protimenow]

If we have an apocalypse, anticoagulation may not be your first worry.

'Natural' anticoagulants aren't predictable in their effects. Unless we're talking about red clover (which warfarin was originally made from), you won't be able to use these for anticoagulation with any degree of reliability.

Warfarin works - but it's also not the only stuff that has effect on coagulation.

NSAIDS do, too - they influence the platelets, making them less 'sticky' and slowing down coagulation -- but their effects can't be measured by our meters so they don't show up in our INR testing.

If I was REALLY worried about apocalypse, and the availability of warfarin during such an event, I'd stock up now - hundreds of 4 mg, thousands of 1 mg, and, for good measure, enough test strips for a few years of testing - and batteries for your meter.

 

[tommyboy14]

Isnt one of the issues with stocking up though that warfarin tends to 'expire' after two years or so?

I think the only way to prep for apocalypse is to yes have a stock one - two years ahead, but also learn how to make the stuff yourself...

 

[Chuck C]

I think the only way to prep for apocalypse is to yes have a stock one - two years ahead, but also learn how to make the stuff yourself...

Wonders if Pellicle will soon be putting up a video showing how to make your own warfarin

 

[pellicle]

Wonders if Pellicle will soon be putting up a video showing how to make your own warfarin

I would start with an RV and a pallet of RatSak ... from which I could probably extract and purify easier

$18 per kg of raw material
https://www.bunnings.com.au/ratsak-1kg-double-strength-bait-station_p2960105

from there we can process: solubility is higher in acetone and dioxane and then we can fractionate easier ;-)

 

[Protimenow]

Personally, for something like warfarin, I'm not all that sure that expiration dates mean much. It's not an antibiotic that may degrade with time.

And if there IS a concern with its effectiveness, we can verify its potency by taking it and testing -- a few days after taking it, we should have a pretty good idea whether it works the same as the unexpired stuff. I doubt there would be any secondary effects or side effects, or anything negative with warfarin that's 24 months old vs warfarin that's 36 months old.

(FWIW - I saw a video about canned food - they put 'sell by' dates on cans, but in this show, they opened 60 year old (maybe even older) canned sardines, and they were as good as they were when they were put into the can. If the can isn't swelling, the contents may be perfectly safe. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the same thing with warfarin).

 

[pellicle]

I'm not all that sure that expiration dates mean much.

agreed ... thanks for reminding me

I've posted this before, but it doesn't take long to go to Google and ask:

efficacy of drugs after expiration date​

from the first (link)

Excluding certain medicines such as nitroglycerin, insulin, epinephrine, and tetracycline, most medicines stored under reasonable conditions retain at least 70–80% of their original potency for at least 1–2 years after the expiration date, even after the container has been opened​

there's more if you want; from:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7040264/

The expiration date is the final day that the manufacturer guarantees the full potency and safety of a medication. Drug expiration dates exist on most medication labels, including prescription, over-the-counter (OTC) and dietary (herbal) supplements.​

​

Proper storage of medications may help to extend their potency. The bathroom and medicine cabinet are not ideal places to store medications due to heat and humidity. Similarly, medications should not be left in a hot car. Medications remain most stable in dry, cool spaces away from light. Keep the prescription bottle caps tightly closed and always keep medications out of reach of children and pets.​

​

According to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) study gets to the heart of medicine expiration and safety. Updated: August 13, 2017, it turns out that the expiration date on a drug does stand for something, but probably not what you think it does. Since a law was passed in 1979, drug manufacturers are required to stamp an expiration date on their products. This is the date at which the manufacturer can still guarantee the full potency and safety of the drug.​

​

Medical authorities state that expired medicine is safe to take, even those that expired years ago. It's true the effectiveness of a drug may decrease over time, but much of the original potency still remains even a decade after the expiration date. Excluding nitroglycerin, insulin, and liquid antibiotics, most medications are as long-lasting as the ones tested by the military. Placing a medication in a cool place, such as a refrigerator, will help a drug remain potent for many years.​

 

[Survived03]

What’s our expiration after opened?

 

[pellicle]

What’s our expiration after opened?

dunno ... I was first opened at 10 ... so at least 50 years so far ;-)

 

[Chuck C]

And if there IS a concern with its effectiveness, we can verify its potency by taking it and testing -- a few days after taking it, we should have a pretty good idea whether it works the same as the unexpired stuff.

I hope that you're not planning to do a test with that batch of 2005 warfarin that you came across

they put 'sell by' dates on cans, but in this show, they opened 60 year old (maybe even older) canned sardines, and they were as good as they were when they were put into the can

I sense another important N=1 experiment in the making to answer the vital question: Do 60 year old sardines cause any change in INR?

Curious minds want to know.

 

[Chuck C]

dunno ... I was first opened at 10 ... so at least 50 years so far ;-)

Didn't they find some "spoilage" after they opened you up the 3rd time?

 

[Protimenow]

I don't think I have access to 60 year old sardines, so I can't test this.

 

[Chuck C]

I don't think I have access to 60 year old sardines, so I can't test this.

We'll see if we can find some online.

 

[Protimenow]

If you do, you can try the experiment - you may need a few tins.

FWIW - I used to donate my 'expired' cans to a local food bank. They told me that they'll accept them up until they were 4 months beyond their expiration date.