My experiences with Vitamin K2 and INR

[big_L]

I found Kate Rheaume-Bleue's book on Vitamin K2 and Calcium to be quite good. This has been discussed in other threads, so I won't rehash here. I decided to start taking it. I am on Warfarin due to my mechanical valve.

See the image. This is my INR, both from the Coaguchek and from the lab. The red line shows where I started. I added one 100ug K7 tab the first week. Yes - that's one tab the entire week. Then two the next. Then three the next. I stopped there due to my drop in INR. I dould add that my target range is 2.5 - 3.5.

I really didn't expect much change in the INR, but the data looks convincing to me. Yes, my diet does change some and my activity level isn't the same. However, I am pretty boring and don't change much in either.

Anyway, I've leveled off at three tabs per week. I have NOT told my cardio about this. Frankly, I didn't want him talking me out of it, as I found the evidence in the book to be compelling as to the benefits of the K2. They have adjusted my warfarin up slightly the past few weeks.

My approach has been to try to "dose the diet". So take the K2, add it slowly and adjust the warfarin if needed.

 

[cldlhd]

Obviously a larger population study would be needed to say for sure but it's interesting to see some real life experience and to see that k2 seems to affect INR not just k1. I ordered her book yesterday and was reading a little bit of a book by Steven Masley regarding vitamin k generally and in regards to people on warfarin specifically. He claims that a lot of patients on warfarin are done a disservice by their doctors by being told to try to avoid leafy greens and vitamin k altogether. He says a lot of people on warfarin who try to avoid vitamin k at all costs end up with a higher rate of calcified arteries compared to the general population. Obviously the rest of the patients diet and lifestyle factors in and I'm sure most warfarin patients aren't that strict about their diet ,especially as the years roll on. He recommends trying to eat a somewhat consistent amount of leafy greens and perhaps a k2 supplement to ensure the body has some and then to "dose the diet" as you're doing. I can understand why you would want to take a gradual approach and also why you would be hesitant to tell your cardio. I'm not on warfarin myself but definitely interested in keeping my arteries and valves from getting calcified .

 

[newmitral]

I started taking low does K2 (MK-7) back in the summer of 2012. My reason for trying this supplement had nothing to do with calcium-related osteoporosis and atherosclerosis, but rather to help stabilize the high variations in my INR week to week.
See my prior posts on this forum, particularly my posts in this thread:

http://www.valvereplacement.org/foru...amin-k-tablets

for details and references to scientific studies supporting this approach.

I _DID_ discuss this with my doctor prior to starting this experiment, and I showed him copies of the studies referenced. He was all in favor of my giving it a try, and I would encourage anyone contemplating taking supplements potentially impacting your INR to work with your doctor and not do this in secret.

I used K2 as MK-7 as my low-dose supplement because is has a very long half-life compared to other forms of K2, so it seemed the best option for helping to stabilize my INR. The scientific papers referenced do indicate clearly that K2 has the effect of lowering INR, so I also slowly worked up to my present dose of 90ug/day (that's micro-grams). Actually I change between 90ug/day and 100ug/day depending on which pills are available at the best price on Amazon. I haven't noticed any significant difference in my INR between the 100ug and 90ug daily doses. But, that's my personal result, your results may vary.

My experience has been that the K2 appears to have helped reduce the variations in my INR.
While my average INR has always been kept very close to its target 3.0 (middle of my range), the K2 seems to have cut in half the standard deviations of the variations I experienced.
In my case, I did not experience any significant lowering of my INR from the low-dose K2 supplement.
But, I should point out that I take a fairly large dose of warfarin (12.5/day) to maintain my range of 2.5-3.5 INR.

To help confirm that the reduction in variability is due to the K2 and not other factors, I plan to stop the K2 for a few months and then see if the standard deviations in my INR readings increase to their pre-K2 level. This will not happen for another few months, however.

 

[cldlhd]

From what I've read the consensus is generally that mk 7 is better due to the longer half life although I did see a few dissenting voices claiming that mk 4 was getting a bad rap and the reason it didn't seem to stay in your system as long is because it's more efficient at getting where most people want it -in their tissues-and that mk 7 shows up longer in your blood because it takes longer to accomplish that . I just started looking into it so my opinion on the mk 4 vs mk 7 isn't fully formed yet

 

[Paleowoman]

The dose of MK-7 needed for it's effect on coronary arteries and bones is around 200 mcg per day. To get the same effect from MK-4 I understand you need to take 5 mg three times a day. That dose of MK-4 would work out prohibitively expensive I think ! Otherwise, their effects are the same….but 200 mcg of MK-7 is not going to break the bank and is far easier to obtain. I've only seen Carlson Labs do MK-4 in sufficient doses of 5mg per capsule. I take Life Extension Super K which contains 200 mcg of MK-7 and 1000 mcg (1img) of MK-4.

 

[cldlhd]

I have Douglas labs mk 7 that comes with 90 mcg a dose. My multivitamin is from Thorne research and lists 200 mcg of k1 and 200 mcg of k2 but doesn't specify if it's mk 4 or mk 7

 

[tom in MO]

If you don't trust your cardio, get a new one. Partner with your health care providers.

In the past I ignored the doctor concerning medications and I paid a price. I believe in what Ronnie Regan said, "trust but verify" in all things health related.

 

[HiMyNameIsDale]

I made a post a while back about the relationship between atherosclerosis and warfarin users and most of the replies didn't think there was a correlation between warfarin use and atherosclerosis rates. This book seems interesting to me, so I will check it out. I am worried that the k2 will not actually be used by the body though. Since warfarin prevents the carboxylation of vitamin k, which then blocks the vitamin k from becoming useful. It's seems like the increase in warfarin you take will just cancel out the increase in vitamin k intake. Does k2 effect you inr the same as regular vitamin k?

Sorry for the wall of text.

 

[big_L]

Good question, Dale. Can't answer it.

I did cut back on the KS for the past two weeks and the INR hasn't moved. Now i'm thinking that the gouda cheese that I started eating twice a day about the same time may be causing the INR decrease. I'll look into it more.