Marcoumar vs. Coumadin or Generics

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PhilipZanon

I had mitral valve (St. Jude) replacement in 2003 in Switzerland and used Marcoumar (Roche). In 2004 I moved to the USA and had to switch to Coumadin because Marcoumar is not available to my knowledge. I am 36 and I am taking a little under 9 mg per day (the generic version of Coumadin) for a target INR between 2.5 and 3.5.

I have experienced great difficulties to get adjusted when I switched over and had to use Lovenox for about two weeks and now after one year I can say that anticoagulation varies in a broader range that it had using Marcoumar. My question is if there is anybody having experience with both drugs and if there is a way to get Marcoumar in the USA. The other question is whether there's a significant difference between Coumadin and the Generics.

Philip, North Carolina
 
Hi Philip and welcome aboard.

I'll let Al Lodwick address most of this post. He is a certified professional anticoagulant expert and phamacist. He should be able to really address this.

As far as I know, in the U.S. our choices are Brand Name Coumadin, Janoven or Generic Barr or Taro Warfarin. That's only what I know, Al will pick it up and fix it. In the U.S. No, there is no difference except price between Brand and Generic. Now some people swear they are much more stable on brand name but there is no direct evidence to support that claim, just the experience off some here. ;)
 
Marcoumar is fenprocoumon. It is similar to but not the same as warfarin. I think that two weeks of difficulty in adjusting doses is very reasonable. The only way that I know to get it in the US, is to have someone purchase it in Europe and send it to you. This is probably a violation of the import law so you would always run the risk of having it seized in customs.

I'm not sure why some European countries settled on these things similar to warfarin, but not as well tested. Perhaps there was some anti-American feeling.
 
I don't know.

Different countries prefer different things. It is like choosing a car.

In the US we think that chloroform is deadly. IN the UK it has been a preferred anesthetic. It doesn't explode like ether does. No that we use either any more.
 
Hello!

I am new in this forum. My name ist Erik Sichra and I live in Vienna, Austria. I must be deciding myself in a couple of weeks to undergo AVR surgery. In this regard, the doctors have told me that if I choose the mechanical valve, I would have to take Marcoumar for the rest of my life. Nevertheless, in internet, I found much more information regarding Coumadin (Warfarin), than Marcoumar. Could anyone please help me telling me what difference does Marcoumar with Coumadin (Warfarin) have? Thanks!

Regards,

Erik
 
wow, Erik, revive an old thread!

Clearly you've been searching :)

Personally I'd never heard of it untill just now. It seems to be similar to warfarin ...

I found this conversation here:
http://www.valvereplacement.org/forums/showthread.php?31070-Marcoumar

and
http://www.valvereplacement.org/forums/showthread.php?36737-Phenprocoumon-vs-Warfarin

I note there a German participant reports that Warfarin was much more expensive in his area than Marcoumar ... the prices in Australia are about AU$9 for a bottle of 50 pills
and I did a bit of digging and found this:
http://www.hemonctoday.com/article.aspx?rid=41583
which you probably have too. I couldn't get at that with my PC, but could on my tablet:

Treatment with warfarin led to better anticoagulant control compared with phenprocoumon, according to the results of a randomized controlled trial.

Phenprocoumon (Liquamar, Organon) has been discontinued in the United States.

Yvonne van Leeuwen, PhD, of the department of clinical epidemiology at the Leiden University Medical Center in the Netherlands, presented the results of a study comparing warfarin with phenprocoumon at the XXII Congress of the International Society on Thrombosis and Hemostasis.

The trial included patients who were initiating anticoagulant therapy and those already assigned the vitamin K antagonist acenocoumarol who were switching to a new therapy. Patients were randomly assigned to warfarin (n=250) or phenprocoumon (n=254). An equal numbers of patients initiating therapy and switching therapies were assigned to each of the treatment regimens.

Follow-up was until the end of treatment or six months. The primary outcome measure was the percentage of time spent within therapeutic ranges.

Overall, the mean percentage of time spent within the therapeutic ranges was 74.6% for those assigned warfarin compared with 65.3% for those assigned phenprocoumon. The difference between treatments was greater in patients switching therapies (78.3% for patients assigned to warfarin vs. 57.6% for patients assigned to phenprocoumon) than in those patients initiating therapy (70.5% vs. 73.7%).

“We were surprised about the effects in ‘switchers’ because it is not seen in patients initiating oral anticoagulant treatment,” van Leeuwen said. “We were especially surprised about the high percent of time spent above the target range in phenprocoumon patients.”

I can ask a mate who has access to a better database than me to see what he can turn up ...

who knows

I'm just on Warfarin ... self testing with Coaguchek XS
:)
 
If you are young (your message didn't say what your age is), the choice between mechanical and tissue valve, at this time, is probably still to go with the mechanical. Although work is being done to repair tissue valves, this is still off into the future. Many of us have had the mechanical valves and are doing just fine with them.

Don't let concern about a lifetime on anticoagulant influence your decision.

Phenprocoumon must be working successfully as an anticoagulant for Austrian valve replacement patients. I don't know about chemical differences, but I assume that the action with Vitamin K is very close to what warfarin's action is.

What it may come down to is this:
Get an INR meter for testing your INR. Test weekly. Make minimal adjustments to your dosing (dosing charts are available on this site, and there are other resources to assist in dosing modifications if necessary. Many of us on this forum can also tell you what adjustments they have made). Personally, I would get the CoaguChek XS because it seems to give results that are closer to lab results than the InRatio does (according to personal testing and the reported results of others on this forum); there are other meters that I use and like, but, in Austria, a German-made meter may be the easiest to acquire).

It may take a while after surgery to find the proper dosage, because your body will continue to change, but once your INR is relatively stable in range, managing the INR shouldn't be a big issue. Some of us here have been on warfarin for decades -- and we are still here.
 
Thanks!

Thanks!

I did a bit of digging and found this:
http://www.hemonctoday.com/article.aspx?rid=41583

I can ask a mate who has access to a better database than me to see what he can turn up ...

Thanks for the info pellicle! I really appreciate it! And if you can ask your mate, then that would be awesome! In the next days I am also asking a friend who works for a pharmaceutic here in Vienna. Lets see what he has to say about it.

Take care!
 
If you are young (your message didn't say what your age is)

I am 27 years old, sporty,healthy. :)

, the choice between mechanical and tissue valve, at this time, is probably still to go with the mechanical. Although work is being done to repair tissue valves, this is still off into the future. Many of us have had the mechanical valves and are doing just fine with them.

I am glad to hear that, that you all mech-warriors :D (if I may) are doing just fine!

Don't let concern about a lifetime on anticoagulant influence your decision.

I think that is the biggest concern of all people who have to decide what AVR method to choose. I am a bit worried about the side effects of anticoagulants. I think I could adapt my lifestyle to taking Marcoumar.

Phenprocoumon must be working successfully as an anticoagulant for Austrian valve replacement patients. I don't know about chemical differences, but I assume that the action with Vitamin K is very close to what warfarin's action is.

I hope so to!

What it may come down to is this:
Get an INR meter for testing your INR. Test weekly. Make minimal adjustments to your dosing (dosing charts are available on this site, and there are other resources to assist in dosing modifications if necessary. Many of us on this forum can also tell you what adjustments they have made). Personally, I would get the CoaguChek XS because it seems to give results that are closer to lab results than the InRatio does (according to personal testing and the reported results of others on this forum); there are other meters that I use and like, but, in Austria, a German-made meter may be the easiest to acquire).

Thanks for the advice!

It may take a while after surgery to find the proper dosage, because your body will continue to change, but once your INR is relatively stable in range, managing the INR shouldn't be a big issue. Some of us here have been on warfarin for decades -- and we are still here.

I hope to be among you if I decide myself for the mechanical valve! Thanks!
 
Hi

.. And if you can ask your mate, then that would be awesome! In the next days I am also asking a friend who works for a pharmaceutic here in Vienna. Lets see what he has to say about it.

I got an answer, but you probably won't like it ... as it has not been a drug available in Australia the Australian Pharmaceutical publications have no information on it. He has suggested that what we have done is the only way to get information. As to why Austria still uses it is also unknown. If your friend sheds light on the matter it will be interesting to hear what that is.
 
additionally I have found a paper by Yvonne van Leeuwen which contains some interesting pieces:

Worldwide there are different types of vitamin K antagonists available. The vitamin K antagonists most frequently used are warfarin, acenocoumarol and phenprocoumon. Warfarin is the vitamin K antagonist of choice in the United States of America, the United Kingdom and many other countries around the world; acenocoumarol and phenprocoumon are frequently used in many European countries. These three vitamin K antagonists mainly differ in their half-life. Acenocoumarol has the shortest half-life of 11 hours, followed by warfarin with 36-42 hours and the longest half-life is seen in phenprocoumon with approximately 140 hours. The clearance of these vitamin K antagonists is also different. Acenocoumarol is for its elimination completely dependent on hydroxylation by cytochrome p450 (CYP). Warfarin is also dependent on reduction processes [12]. Phenprocoumon can, in addition to elimination as hydroxylated metabolites, be eliminated as parent compound and is thus less dependent on hydroxylation by CYP.
this last piece refers to how the body 'clears' the compound from itself. the Cytochrome pathway is important to removal of 'toxins' from the body ... oh and as far as I know its based on our cells mitochondria.


Next something for protimenow:
Although the PT is sensitive for anticoagulation with vitamin K antagonists, the tests are poorly standardised between different laboratories. Use of different reagents and equipment results in substantially different PT values from a single blood sample.

:)
The risk for complications rises sharply with INR values below 2.0 and exponentially with INR values above 5.0

She notes (of clinic testing I assume) that
Approximately 30 to 50% of the time, patients’ INR is out of range
this figure is much improved by self testing in all the papers I have ever read.

She also studies computer based algorithms (far more complex than I have created in my simple model) and compared two (ICAD and TRODIS)

with respect to doses in 'transition' between various coumarin drugs. I find it interesting that she makes the point that they are part of the same family group, and so perhaps there is little difference. On why people may switch she observes:

sensitivity can be a reason to switch from one coumarin to the other for practical reasons,since a maintenance dose of less than 1 mg of acenocoumarol is difficult to administer (tablets contain 1 mg, and cannot be divided).

in a note about the literature she says:
At present, literature about the transition from one coumarin to another is surprisingly scarce. One study investigated a dosage scheme for transition from phenprocoumon to warfarin in patients treated in an outpatients clinic [20]. The authors found that the dosage for an optimal INR of warfarin is 2.3 times the dosage of phenprocoumon.

so the actual dosage in mg may be different between phenprocoumon and warfarin.

She later observes:
The transition factor between the maintenance dosage of phenprocoumon and warfarin in milligram was 0.41 (95% CI 0.39 – 0.43), indicating that the maintenance dosage of phenprocoumon is 0.41 times the maintenance dosage of warfarin (figure 2).
which supports that.

What effect this has I can't say. Just because you take more or less of it is not specifically a reason to be concerned about other effects. Clearly "more research is needed" to answer that question.

At the very least the usage of Warfarin (being a larger dose) will make it easier to 'tune' your dose as a change from (say) 7mg daily to 7.5mg daily would be easier than 2.87mg of phenprecoumin to 3.075mg

I think that a significant thing emerges from all my readings (to date) on INR and various coumarins is this: the cohort studied is older, with a median age of late 60s in most studies. I would expect that this biases the observations as to health effects because (hopefully) people in their 60's are not as healthy as people in their mid 30's...

I have the paper (150 pages) if anyone wants a copy PM me with an email address.
 
another paper:
Pharmacogenetic differences between warfarin, acenocoumarol and phenprocoumon
Maarten Beinema; Jacobus R. B. J. Brouwers; Tom Schalekamp; Bob Wilffert
World-wide, warfarin is the most prescribed drug. In Europe, acenocoumarol and phenprocoumon are also administered.

In the long term, patients using phenprocoumon have more often
international normalised ratio (INR) values in the therapeutic range, requiring fewer monitoring visits. This leads us to conclude that in the absence of pharmacogenetic testing, phenprocoumon seems preferable for use in long-term therapeutic anticoagulation. Pharmacogenetic testing before initiating coumarin oral anticoagulants may add to the safety of all coumarin anticoagulants especially in the elderly receiving multiple drugs.

Of Warfarin:
Incorrect dosage, especially during the initial phase of treatment, carries a high risk for either severe bleeding or failure to prevent thromboembolism. Genotype-based dose predictions may enable personalized drug treatment from the start of warfarin therapy (26).
{emphasis mine}

Phenprecoumin:
Phenprocoumon seems preferable in poor metabolisers of coumarin anticoagulants (42). Phenprocoumon has a long half-life: it is approximately 172 hours for the more potent S-phenprocoumon enantiomer, and approximately 156 hours for R-phenprocoumon.
wow ... long half life compared to warfarin! They go on to note:
Because of the long half-life time, overanticoagulated patients using phenprocoumon are at greater risk of major bleedings due to the prolonged period of overanticoagulation.
so don't muff up your dose!

The article makes a significant mention of the genetic variations involved in the cytochrome pathways and how that makes a substantial difference to dose. This is most important at the start to prevent over anticoagulation therapy (and with phenprecoumin with its long half life and smaller dose requirement making that more complex).

Patients on phenprocoumon have INR values more often in the therapeutic window and require less control than patients on acenocoumarol.

but no mention of Warfarin and probably an assumption of non-involvement by patients (passive agents) who go monthly ... and probably are elderly ... as every other study seems to be.
 
one more ...
Quality of oral anticoagulant therapy in patients who perform self management: warfarin versus phenprocoumon
Christina Friis Jensen, Thomas Decker Christensen, Marianne Maegaard, John Michael Hasenkam
Abstract:
Background
The quality of oral anticoagulant therapy may be related to which type of coumarin is used.
The aim was to investigate whether phenprocoumon or warfarin provide the highest quality of oral anticoagulant therapy in patients who manage the therapy themselves.

Methods and results
In a cohort study 519 patients on self managed oral anticoagulant therapy were included. Quality control parameters, were, the percentage of time spent in the therapeutic range and the variability in the patients' INR values. Time within therapeutic INR target range in the patient group treated respectively with warfarin and phenprocoumon was 70.2% and 74.0% (P = 0.008).The median variance in the warfarin group was 0.35 (95% CI (0.32-0.38)) and 0.29 (95% CI (0.25-0.33)) in the phenprocoumon group (P = 0.0004).

Conclusion
Phenprocoumon provides a higher percentage of time spent in therapeutic INR interval and a lower variation of INR-values compared with warfarin
Journal of Thrombosis and Thrombolysis

{emphasis mine}
 
(Excuse me while I yawn). After spending a few years training in Biostatistics and Epidemiology, I have to take a look at this last report and give a big 'ho hum.' Yes, the differences may be statistically significant, but I don't think that they're all that important. Reporting that patients on warfarin are in range 70.2% of the time, and those on phenprocoumiun are in range 74.0% of the time doesn't strike me as all that important a difference.

These results may reflect how often the INRs are tested -- if tests are done once a month -- or perhaps even every two months - these results would only reflect a response to the dosing a few days before the test. BIG DEAL. They don't reflect the INRs in the time between the tests.

With a longer half-life, procoumarin may be a more effective way to maintain an INR that is withing range, but as Pellicle pointed out, it's also harder to adjust the dosing.

In the past, I've used warfarin that I bought from a pharmacy in India -- I did frequent testing when I first received it to make sure that it didn't do strange things to my INR and that its effects matched those of the local generics. If I had no local source of warfarin, I would probably strongly consider doing this again.

Personally, I believe that most people can have almost 100% of the time IN RANGE if the tests are done weekly, and minor adjustments made only when necessary. It may be harder to do this with phenprocoumarin because of the issues with partial doses -- warfarin can be broken down in increments of .5 mg or less, giving a tremendous amount of control over dosing.

If the only medication available in your country is phenprocoumarin, I still suggest regular self-testing unless you can convince your medical system to perform tests weekly. This is probably the best way to be sure that your INR stays in range.

I don't know about 'side effects' of either medication. Personally, I don't think that there has been any photosensitivity or other adverse event in my history of use of this drug.
 
Hi

(Excuse me while I yawn). ... I have to take a look at this last report and give a big 'ho hum.' Yes, the differences may be statistically significant,

although hardly ;-)

anyway I was just attempting to dig up what I could on an unknown drug and answer with what I found to the person who asked. I make no attempt to judge which is better, and as it happens one or the other may not be available to them anyway ...

caveat emptor

shrug
 
Last edited:
Right. I realize that it was certainly not YOUR research. I was just trying to shed my own interpretive light on this.

(As far as availability, I DID point out another area where this might be sourced - but I make no recommendations, and I don't even know if local customs would ALLOW medications from another country to cross its borders).

Yes. Caveat emptor.
 
I don't know about 'side effects' of either medication. Personally, I don't think that there has been any photosensitivity or other adverse event in my history of use of this drug.

well I find that I'm more inclined to enjoy a Finnish Blood Sausage than I once was ... will have to check my k9's and see (if only I could see myself in the mirror these days ;-)

PS:
Personally, I believe that most people can have almost 100% of the time IN RANGE if the tests are done weekly

my own testing (weekly) has had me in range 86% of the time in this calendar year ... for what that's worth?

:)
 
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