K2 and Calcium

[pellicle]

Hi

Not my area of study, but hopefully the discussion would bring something

 

[Warrick]

Much of what he says in the clip you can read here, maybe they used it as a reference for writing this-
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4566462/

 

[Paleowoman]

Hi Pellicle - I've been taking vitamin K2 along with vitamin D3 for some years now. I first heard of vitamin K2 on the cardiologist Dr William Davis's blog years ago as he said it would help stop calcification of the aortic valve. Then it was also talked about on other websites with reference to osteoporosis as K2 helps put calcium in bones instead of in arteries. Although I have osteoporosis I do not take calcium supplements due to side effects from them - I get enough calcium from what I eat. Vitamin K2 is naturally found in fermented foods, Japanese natto, some cheeses, sauerkraut, but not in great amounts. In Japan K2 is prescribed for osteoporosis.

I once asked a researcher how it was that something that is essential is not found in many foods and he proposed that since K2 is made by bacteria, that in the days before refrigeration foods such as meat might be ever so slightly in the early stages of decomposition - he said that in poor countries people are not short of K2.

K2 is not at all the same as K1 which is the anticoagulant vitamin. They're not found in the same foods at all. I've no idea why they're both called 'K'.

There are several sorts of K2. I take K2 as MK7, that is the usual one.

 

[Survived03]

I have a question for the group and its somewhat related to the topic and hopefully not a thread jack. During my last consult my surgeon mentioned to me that as we age calcification actually slows down. I confirmed this with my attending assistant (wife) and we both heard the same thing. Has anyone else heard this or run across any publications related to his statement? I will revisit this question with the team but I found it interesting and educating to me. If this has been proven I would be interested in the specifics. I had a valve sparing procedure in 2003 when I had my ascending aorta and valve root replaced. At that time there was very mild calcification of my bicuspid aortic valve. My native valve has lasted 19.5 years and I now have aortic stenosis. A new valve is in my future. In evaluating valve options, I have read where the Inspiris Resilia incorporates anticalcification technology. I'm looking to chase down all information that can assist me in valve choices. Future calcification notwithstanding.
Thanks in advance.

 

[pellicle]

Hi

During my last consult my surgeon mentioned to me that as we age calcification actually slows down. I confirmed this with my attending assistant (wife) and we both heard the same thing. Has anyone else heard this or run across any publications related to his statement?

this is not really anything I've spent much time thinking about (that is not to say none, but relatively not much). I have my own opinions which are perhaps not worth sharing here. However I'd point you at the following readings

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3608212/
and then

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3659822/

My native valve has lasted 19.5 years and I now have aortic stenosis. A new valve is in my future. In evaluating valve options, I have read where the Inspiris Resilia incorporates anticalcification technology. I'm looking to chase down all information that can assist me in valve choices. Future calcification notwithstanding.

I think this is largely a different question because your bones are in themselves an organ (just as your skin is) and what we are seeing in the valves is more akin to what we see in plaque in arteries than bone. For that subject I'd point you in the direction of glycocalyx (I'd start on that paragraph but move to the start of the article before progressing far if you want to grasp the subject). The subject is complex and tightly interwoven with understanding endothelia and the valves are indeed related tissue (AFAIK).

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26638797/
Its important to recall that the so-called "bio-prostheses" are about as bio as your leather shoes, and have been treated with a chemical process which is different to but not unlike the process we call tanning. I would strongly recommend you read the following

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/JAHA.120.018506
and in particular look at SVD in the section here.

If all that sounds complex I'm sure it is. I'm fortunate to have had both a long time to study this and a leg up based on my studies.

Ultimately much of the choice and the imperatives which drive it are pretty simple because we have "observation" from which we can determine statistical likelihoods. These are things like your age at time of surgery. I don't recall your age (and its not in your about section for me to look it up, but as I see it:

1. you have had one OHS already (the 'valve sparing' operation)
2. I suspect you're over 50 (but I don't know the ceiling of that)

So I'm going to go with the following advice:

• the further over 65 you are the more a Reslilia makes sense
• the closer you are to 50 the more a mechanical valve makes sense

those two advices are more common outside the land of th free (or "free maket direct to patient advertising land")

I'm going to say that no bio-valve maker is presenting data for trials that go past 15 years (and indeed the trend is moving down). This means that "marketing data" can be more of this:

Warfarin is painted as a bogy man by various medical practitioners because they don't have a fhukken clue how to manage it (despite papers as far back as the early 80's) and people come to harm because they simply don't comply with their directions to take their dose.

If you don't actually take a hand in managing your own health (which takes about 5 min a week and as many dollars) then you'll be a statistic.

Lastly (before you do any deep dive into my above articles (from my reference list) I recommend you grab a warm beverage, a pencil and paper and make notes in this presentation.



While a bit dated is well researched and the Dr well experienced and well intentioned.

Lastly a perspective. You don't get better from surgery, you just stop a process which was killing you. You'll swap this out for an injury which requires treatment. One type of "surgical wound" requires further surgical interventions (or cardiology interventional in the case of TAVI) and the other requires you to learn how to manage a drug. This is actually what all diabetics do, but their process is more onerous.

Best Wishes

 

[Survived03]

Hi




this is not really anything I've spent much time thinking about (that is not to say none, but relatively not much). I have my own opinions which are perhaps not worth sharing here. However I'd point you at the following readings

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3608212/
and then

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3659822/


I think this is largely a different question because your bones are in themselves an organ (just as your skin is) and what we are seeing in the valves is more akin to what we see in plaque in arteries than bone. For that subject I'd point you in the direction of glycocalyx (I'd start on that paragraph but move to the start of the article before progressing far if you want to grasp the subject). The subject is complex and tightly interwoven with understanding endothelia and the valves are indeed related tissue (AFAIK).

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26638797/
Its important to recall that the so-called "bio-prostheses" are about as bio as your leather shoes, and have been treated with a chemical process which is different to but not unlike the process we call tanning. I would strongly recommend you read the following

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/JAHA.120.018506
and in particular look at SVD in the section here.

If all that sounds complex I'm sure it is. I'm fortunate to have had both a long time to study this and a leg up based on my studies.

Ultimately much of the choice and the imperatives which drive it are pretty simple because we have "observation" from which we can determine statistical likelihoods. These are things like your age at time of surgery. I don't recall your age (and its not in your about section for me to look it up, but as I see it:

1. you have had one OHS already (the 'valve sparing' operation)
2. I suspect you're over 50 (but I don't know the ceiling of that)

So I'm going to go with the following advice:

• the further over 65 you are the more a Reslilia makes sense
• the closer you are to 50 the more a mechanical valve makes sense

those two advices are more common outside the land of th free (or "free maket direct to patient advertising land")

I'm going to say that no bio-valve maker is presenting data for trials that go past 15 years (and indeed the trend is moving down). This means that "marketing data" can be more of this:

View attachment 888939

Warfarin is painted as a bogy man by various medical practitioners because they don't have a fhukken clue how to manage it (despite papers as far back as the early 80's) and people come to harm because they simply don't comply with their directions to take their dose.

If you don't actually take a hand in managing your own health (which takes about 5 min a week and as many dollars) then you'll be a statistic.

Lastly (before you do any deep dive into my above articles (from my reference list) I recommend you grab a warm beverage, a pencil and paper and make notes in this presentation.



While a bit dated is well researched and the Dr well experienced and well intentioned.

Lastly a perspective. You don't get better from surgery, you just stop a process which was killing you. You'll swap this out for an injury which requires treatment. One type of "surgical wound" requires further surgical interventions (or cardiology interventional in the case of TAVI) and the other requires you to learn how to manage a drug. This is actually what all diabetics do, but their process is more onerous.

Best Wishes

Thank you Pellicle.

 

[pellicle]

Thank you Pellicle.

welcome ... hope it helps you

The patient not complying is the biggest issue and the oldest

(*and a good part of the reason I don't yet make my method into an app)

 

[Iceman331]

Calcification is usually age-related. The culprit is shortening of the telomerase in an older person.

I've read that berberine and rapamycin can stop and reverse heart valve calcification. Also, there studies that show that Danazol (anabolic steroid) can indeed lengthen telomerase quite a bit in a span of 1-2 years. This can "undo" damage.

All of this is really interesting. We all need to do research to better understand our conditions and those of others.

I wish you all the best of health and abundant happiness.

 

[pellicle]

Good morning

Calcification is usually age-related. The culprit is shortening of the telomerase in an older person.

true ... but also glycocalyx related which can be also influenced by Lp(a) as I understand it.

https://microvascular.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Paper_09_Gorshkov_2018.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5681608/
interesting reading at least

 

[Paleowoman]

Bicuspid aortic valves, which many of us on forum have or had, leads to calcification of the valve which is due to the turbulence of the blood flowng through the bicuspid valve as it is too narrow to begin with. It is the turbulence which often identifies the bicuspid aortic valve in the first place too, sometimes many years before the need for surgery.

Here are extracts from two articles about bicuspid aortic valve and calcification:

From Heart Valve Surgery.com
"Calcium deposits are more commonly found in areas of turbulent blood flow, which is more commonly found at the aortic valve in its position between the left ventricle and the aorta. Bicuspid aortic valves (BAV) and other valve anomalies result in particularly turbulent blood flow, which is why these patients present with valve calcification at a much earlier age."
www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-surgery-blog/2016/09/15/calcification/

From British Cardiovascular Journal
"Mechanical or tensile stress on the valve leaflets also has been proposed as an important factor in initiation of the disease process. The major evidence for this hypothesis is that calcific disease occurs at an earlier age in patients with a bicuspid valve, typically with symptoms occurring at 50–60 years of age. Also, in contrast to the small number of patients with a trileaflet valve that develop severe stenosis, nearly all patients with a bicuspid valve will develop significant outflow tract obstruction. Because the stress–strain relations of a bicuspid valve are abnormal, this higher tensile stress may contribute to earlier initiation and more rapid progression of disease. However, the disease process at the tissue level in bicuspid aortic valves has not been specifically examined, until now." Calcification of bicuspid aortic valves | Heart

 

[Chuck C]

I've read that berberine and rapamycin can stop and reverse heart valve calcification

I've also read that vitamin k2 can reverse valve calcification. The problem with these claims is there is no evidence to back them up. Currently, there is nothing that has been shown to reverse valve calcification. Hopefully one day there will be.

 

[carolinemc]

Calcification is usually age-related. The culprit is shortening of the telomerase in an older person.

I've read that berberine and rapamycin can stop and reverse heart valve calcification. Also, there studies that show that Danazol (anabolic steroid) can indeed lengthen telomerase quite a bit in a span of 1-2 years. This can "undo" damage.

All of this is really interesting. We all need to do research to better understand our conditions and those of others.

I wish you all the best of health and abundant happiness.

I have been diagnosed with Mitral Valve Calcification. I what research I have done is age related. My Cario nurse said they will keep an eye on it.

 

[carolinemc]

Hi




this is not really anything I've spent much time thinking about (that is not to say none, but relatively not much). I have my own opinions which are perhaps not worth sharing here. However I'd point you at the following readings

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3608212/
and then

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3659822/


I think this is largely a different question because your bones are in themselves an organ (just as your skin is) and what we are seeing in the valves is more akin to what we see in plaque in arteries than bone. For that subject I'd point you in the direction of glycocalyx (I'd start on that paragraph but move to the start of the article before progressing far if you want to grasp the subject). The subject is complex and tightly interwoven with understanding endothelia and the valves are indeed related tissue (AFAIK).

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26638797/
Its important to recall that the so-called "bio-prostheses" are about as bio as your leather shoes, and have been treated with a chemical process which is different to but not unlike the process we call tanning. I would strongly recommend you read the following

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/JAHA.120.018506
and in particular look at SVD in the section here.

If all that sounds complex I'm sure it is. I'm fortunate to have had both a long time to study this and a leg up based on my studies.

Ultimately much of the choice and the imperatives which drive it are pretty simple because we have "observation" from which we can determine statistical likelihoods. These are things like your age at time of surgery. I don't recall your age (and its not in your about section for me to look it up, but as I see it:

1. you have had one OHS already (the 'valve sparing' operation)
2. I suspect you're over 50 (but I don't know the ceiling of that)

So I'm going to go with the following advice:

• the further over 65 you are the more a Reslilia makes sense
• the closer you are to 50 the more a mechanical valve makes sense

those two advices are more common outside the land of th free (or "free maket direct to patient advertising land")

I'm going to say that no bio-valve maker is presenting data for trials that go past 15 years (and indeed the trend is moving down). This means that "marketing data" can be more of this:

View attachment 888939

Warfarin is painted as a bogy man by various medical practitioners because they don't have a fhukken clue how to manage it (despite papers as far back as the early 80's) and people come to harm because they simply don't comply with their directions to take their dose.

If you don't actually take a hand in managing your own health (which takes about 5 min a week and as many dollars) then you'll be a statistic.

Lastly (before you do any deep dive into my above articles (from my reference list) I recommend you grab a warm beverage, a pencil and paper and make notes in this presentation.



While a bit dated is well researched and the Dr well experienced and well intentioned.

Lastly a perspective. You don't get better from surgery, you just stop a process which was killing you. You'll swap this out for an injury which requires treatment. One type of "surgical wound" requires further surgical interventions (or cardiology interventional in the case of TAVI) and the other requires you to learn how to manage a drug. This is actually what all diabetics do, but their process is more onerous.

Best Wishes

Our bones have nothing to do with the calcification of the valve, it happens as we age. Some have surgery and some do not. Just depends on how bad things get.

 

[user 15848]

Hi, before i had my AVR found this report, and i follow it, K2 does help removing Calcification deposits in soft tissue as per that article.... check it out.

 

[carolinemc]

Hi, before i had my AVR found this report, and i follow it, K2 does help removing Calcification deposits in soft tissue as per that article.... check it out.

Does not help those of us on Warfarin and have to watch our vitamin K intake.

 

[pellicle]

Does not help those of us on Warfarin and have to watch our vitamin K intake.

just to suggest that while you might need to, the evidence is that the vast majority of us don't.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4998867/

In conclusion, the available evidence does not support current advice to modify dietary habits when starting therapy with VKAs. Restriction of dietary vitamin K intake does not seem to be a valid strategy to improve anticoagulation quality with VKAs. It would be, perhaps, more relevant to maintain stable dietary habit, thus avoiding wide changes in the intake of vitamin K. Based on this, until controlled prospective studies provide firm evidence that dietary vitamin K intake interferes with anticoagulation by VKAs, the putative interaction between food and VKAs should be eliminated from international guidelines.​

Myself I've found no such reliable correlation and I'd prefer to just eat healthy and adjust my dose if I need to (so far I've never found that any reliable correlation exists on my vitamin K intake from food makes any difference to my INR.

So I'm coming down on the side of "eat healthy and dose the diet"

PS k2 is even less of a problem because you just take it regularly and dose the diet.

 

[Paleowoman]

I thought the article that @PeterII posted was rather good and comprehensive. It certainly mentioned a lot about K2 in relation to those on warfarin too.

Surprisingly K2 isn't so easily available from food, apart from certain foods like fermented foods, sauerkraut for example, or natto in Japan, and certain cheeses. K2 is made by bacteria. Some years ago I wrote to one of the scientists doing research into K2 and coronary calcification in Holland and asked how is it that a nutrient that is essential is not easily available as we wouldn't have evolved to need it if it wasn't. He replied that he thought that in the days before refrigeration we would have got it more easily as foodstuffs would be slightly fermented by the bacteria which make K2. K2 is also made in the gut, but not so easily (btw, rabbits get K2 from eating their droppings ! I don't think we should do that ).

 

[pellicle]

I thought the article that @PeterII posted was rather good and comprehensive. It certainly mentioned a lot about K2 in relation to those on warfarin too.

Agreed. A bit outdated in the advice about macular degeneration, some speculation, but for a. org newsletter it was pretty good. Even had citations

 

[carolinemc]

just to suggest that while you might need to, the evidence is that the vast majority of us don't.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4998867/

In conclusion, the available evidence does not support current advice to modify dietary habits when starting therapy with VKAs. Restriction of dietary vitamin K intake does not seem to be a valid strategy to improve anticoagulation quality with VKAs. It would be, perhaps, more relevant to maintain stable dietary habit, thus avoiding wide changes in the intake of vitamin K. Based on this, until controlled prospective studies provide firm evidence that dietary vitamin K intake interferes with anticoagulation by VKAs, the putative interaction between food and VKAs should be eliminated from international guidelines.​

Myself I've found no such reliable correlation and I'd prefer to just eat healthy and adjust my dose if I need to (so far I've never found that any reliable correlation exists on my vitamin K intake from food makes any difference to my INR.

So I'm coming down on the side of "eat healthy and dose the diet"

PS k2 is even less of a problem because you just take it regularly and dose the diet.

And I just note when I take antibiotics when I go to the lab, where I get my INR done. What is sad that people do not get it that vitamin K is in all food we take in. Veggies and meats.