Joint stiffness and INR

[Jtucker33]

I do pretty intense weight training 4 days a week. After “arms days” I wake up to pain in my elbows and joints. The simple solution I know is to train lighter, I’m 56 years old. Rather than go easier, I’d rather try taking a supplement like Glucosamine and Magnesium. Before checking with my warfarin clinic to pose the question, and the answer they’ll likely to give, I’d like to ask anyone about experiences with the two supplements. I’m pretty sure the answer will be something like “do not take unless you want to be consistent and go through the steps to re-regulate my warfarin intake.
has anyone taken or currently take something for joint stiffness?

 

[pellicle]

Glucosamine and magnesium, no indications of effect on my INR.

Just so the usual weekly testing and adjust as needed if needed.

The thing I've discovered is that it's not warfarin that's the problem, it's getting old that's the problem.

Keep in mind we train for health, not to pretend we are young or vanity.

https://theconversation.com/50-year...biology-of-how-muscles-change-with-age-172941
Pain is an indicator, ignore it at your peril.

Best Wishes

 

[Jtucker33]

Glucosamine and magnesium, no indications of effect on my INR.

Just so the usual weekly testing and adjust as needed if needed.

The thing I've discovered is that it's not warfarin that's the problem, it's getting old that's the problem.

Keep in mind we train for health, not to pretend we are young or vanity.

https://theconversation.com/50-year...biology-of-how-muscles-change-with-age-172941
Pain is an indicator, ignore it at your peril.

Best Wishes

thank you for your insight. Of course I’ll check with the clinic and be ready to check INR. I’m at the every six weeks level now. I feel great and when I get to the gym I feel like I should be 28 years old again. I see muscle gains and I want more and increase the weight.
I probably overdid it yesterday and my arms and elbows and hands were sore.

the joint pain normally wears off a few hours after I get out of bed.

sucks getting old.

 

[pellicle]

Hi

first things first

I’m at the every six weeks level now.

does this mean you are now only checking INR every 6 weeks? If yes then that's not an "acheivement" its inadvisable. Its like "I haven't been involved in an accident in my car for a weeks, so I'm only going to wear my seatbelt every 6th trip.

OR

I can look at my phone for a few seconds, so a few more is ok ... and then because nothing bad has happened yet I can do it more often.

Sure, I don't want a vein blood draw weekly, that's why I use a coaguchek and test weekly with that. If something happens in the middle of that 6 weeks to change things then you're going to be part of the higher risk group for either a stroke or a bleed. (note: bleeds are better than strokes)

Weekly testing is what On-X used to achieve their lower INR protocol. Why go longer and not know?

the joint pain normally wears off a few hours after I get out of bed.

well if that ramps up into tendonitis then you can kiss good bye to training for 6 months.

One of the most harmful memes in society is that age is just a number. Its an indicator. You should listen to your body. You may feel like you're 28 but you aren't. That's endorphins masking the damage you are doing.

Some are lucky to be the 90 year olds who are still only down to the level of the general public, but:

1. they are not the norm
2. were athletes before at a much higher level

Injuries from over training take much longer to recover from.

Best Wishes

 

[Superman]

[sarc]Ain’t no doctors up in this place. If the clinic says six weeks, then six weeks it is! What are your credentials to question that guidance?[/sarc]

 

[pellicle]

[sarc]Ain’t no doctors down in this place. If the clinic says six weeks, then six weeks it is! What are your credentials to question that guidance?[/sarc]

You're absolutely right, I forgot about that in a moment's weakness.

Must have had a TIA



Oh, and

 

[tom in MO]

From NIH.gov: Studies have found that glucosamine and chondroitin supplements may interact with the anticoagulant (blood-thinning) drug warfarin (Coumadin). Overall, studies have not shown any other serious side effects.

Also from NIH.gov:

The American Academy of Family Physicians lists patients with shellfish allergy, diagnosis of asthma, or use of diabetes medications or warfarin as “C” evidence contraindications (supported by consensus, disease-oriented evidence, usual practice, expert opinion, or case series). Although not prohibitive to glucosamine sulfate use, patients with one or more of these criteria should be monitored cautiously for potential adverse effects.​

​

Through various studies, Glucosamine sulfate has consistently been concluded to be a relatively safe oral supplement. A few isolated case studies have reported on the incidence of hepatotoxicity following >3 weeks of glucosamine sulfate use. However, all patients cited had severe preexisting liver disease, with one of the eight patients mentioned developing hepatic failure.​

​

The evidence available on the effectiveness of glucosamine sulfate as a beneficial therapy in the management of osteoarthritis is, to date, inconclusive. Interestingly, studies have shown that patients are not deterred from supplement use when presented with data concluding lack of efficacy, with the only evidence of significant toxicity showing to be capable of causing changes in supplement consumption. Physicians should be mindful of this when discussing the benefits and risks of various treatment modalities with OA patients, particularly those of no validated benefit. The physician must personalize the risk and benefits of taking glucosamine sulfate to each patient. Typically, a 60-day trial of glucosamine sulfate will determine if there are beneficial effects, after which it should be discontinued if the patient has not observed any beneficial effect by that time.​

From my family members and doctors, glucosamine doesn't really work for joint pain or arthritis.

You are 56yo. That's when pain starts to be part of life and not a sign of a problem, especially if arthritis runs in you or your family. As you get older, your exercise routine and sports need to be changed to prevent injury irrespective of warfarin.

"As you get older, pain helps you know you're still alive in the morning."

 

[Brinntache]

I find that a lot of my joint stiffness and pain is associated with tight muscles. (which don't recover the way they used to...)
I find that magnesium helps the my muscles calm down, which is probably why it is marketed as "Calm". It's not the whole answer, but it helps. In my mind anyways. YMMV

 

[LondonAndy]

I have been taking a daily 1500mg Glucosamine Sulphate for about 10 years, to relieve pain in my knees. No ill effects showing for INR or liver. When my doctor recommended I take it, he said that as we get older we get less good at producing he stuff that cushions our knees and this supplement can help some but not others. I firmly believe I would be in a wheelchair without this.

 

[pellicle]

I firmly believe I would be in a wheelchair without this.

I'm pretty sure I'd be in prison if I couldn't have a whiskey or a Gin and Tonic now and then

... well, not since I stopped working "there" again.

(PS: I think its apt that they changed the PD for Project Manager to Delivery Coach (not joking))

 

[carolinemc]

From NIH.gov: Studies have found that glucosamine and chondroitin supplements may interact with the anticoagulant (blood-thinning) drug warfarin (Coumadin). Overall, studies have not shown any other serious side effects.

Also from NIH.gov:

The American Academy of Family Physicians lists patients with shellfish allergy, diagnosis of asthma, or use of diabetes medications or warfarin as “C” evidence contraindications (supported by consensus, disease-oriented evidence, usual practice, expert opinion, or case series). Although not prohibitive to glucosamine sulfate use, patients with one or more of these criteria should be monitored cautiously for potential adverse effects.​

​

Through various studies, Glucosamine sulfate has consistently been concluded to be a relatively safe oral supplement. A few isolated case studies have reported on the incidence of hepatotoxicity following >3 weeks of glucosamine sulfate use. However, all patients cited had severe preexisting liver disease, with one of the eight patients mentioned developing hepatic failure.​

​

The evidence available on the effectiveness of glucosamine sulfate as a beneficial therapy in the management of osteoarthritis is, to date, inconclusive. Interestingly, studies have shown that patients are not deterred from supplement use when presented with data concluding lack of efficacy, with the only evidence of significant toxicity showing to be capable of causing changes in supplement consumption. Physicians should be mindful of this when discussing the benefits and risks of various treatment modalities with OA patients, particularly those of no validated benefit. The physician must personalize the risk and benefits of taking glucosamine sulfate to each patient. Typically, a 60-day trial of glucosamine sulfate will determine if there are beneficial effects, after which it should be discontinued if the patient has not observed any beneficial effect by that time.​

From my family members and doctors, glucosamine doesn't really work for joint pain or arthritis.

You are 56yo. That's when pain starts to be part of life and not a sign of a problem, especially if arthritis runs in you or your family. As you get older, your exercise routine and sports need to be changed to prevent injury irrespective of warfarin.

"As you get older, pain helps you know you're still alive in the morning."

Not for those who have arthritis. My mother had RA for many years and wished the pain to go away. Not easy to get around with pain in the joints, not a nice reminder of being alive.