How's this for being sensitive?

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Bill B

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2009
Messages
938
Location
Alamo, CA
I started out stabilized on 12mg of warfarin --- per week. Yep, 1.5mg/day except 3 mg one day per week. INR between 2 and 3. Over the 3 years I've been on warfarin, I've had a couple of small upward adjustments to keep my INR between 2 and 3, and until recently I was on 15mg per week (1.5mg Su, Tu, Th, Sa and 3mg Mo, We, Fr). My INR had been gradually drifting down over the last several months from 2.5 and finally dropped to just below 2 (1.9). My caog nurse and I agreed to change my dose to 3mg on Thurdays, raising my total weekly dose from 15 to 16.5mg, and increase of 10%. Two weeks later my INR was 2.9, and increase of 50%. We'll check again in another 2 weeks. If it's not over 3, great, I'll stay on it.

Parenthetically, I'll note I'm not a big salad/greens eater. I suspect my vitamin K intake is low. However, during the past couple of weeks, I went on a binge, eating one good sized salad almost every day, and a few times twice a day. These were iceberg lettuce primarily but some romaine and other lettuces and "greens". This just points out that you can eat just about all the salad you want without significantly counteracting warfarin because most lettuces have very little vitmain K. Iceberg has about 100 mcg PER HEAD (over one pound). That's barely the RDA. If you go through the USDA charts you'll see that only spinach, kale, collard greens and a few other very dark green leafy vegetables have amounts of vitmain K that are significant in any usual portion size, even if eaten daily.

Anyway, despite being extremely sensitive to warfarin, I've over all been remarkably stable with just a slow drift down in INR over 3 years. Some very sensitive people are quite unstable and benefit from vitamin K supplementation, as has been cited here before. My cardiologist and I discussed that, but I'm leaving well enough alone for now, although I may change my mind based on some of the health issues being at least theoretically connected to vitmain K antagonist use. Anyway, I'm enjoying my new found interest in salads without ill effect. I may even add some additional spinach - I do eat some occasionally- if my INR stays up around 3.
 
You sound pretty sensitive to me. I'll bet that your liver function is pretty darned good.
Over the years, my dosage has crept up a bit. There were also cyclical changes that I had to make.

Don't be afraid of greems (aside from iceberg and some romaine, I pretty much stay away from greens - I just never figured out how to like them). It doesn't sound as if the greens that you've been eating have caused much change.

(If you had your own meter, you could even test and find out)
 
I haven't been able to see much correlation between how much greens I eat, and my INR changes. Some weeks I eat a lot of avocados, broccoli, cauliflower, lettuce and cabbage. Other weeks there are very few veggies around the house to eat. Several times I expected my big change in the amount of greens consumed to affect my INR but the tests did not show it.

On the other hand, a few weeks ago, I had to take antibiotics for cut on my foot. The INR clinic wanted me to test after a week to see if my INR went up (the apparent expected result of being on Amoxacillin). My INR ended up going down from 2.5 to 2.0. Go figure!
 
avocados, broccoli, cauliflower, lettuce and cabbage are not significant sources of vitamin K

Avacados: 6mcg/cup (essentially zero)
Broccoli: between 90 and 200mcg/cup (getting there but not very high)
Cauliflower: 15-20mcg/cup (essentially zero again)
Cabbage: 30 to 160mcg/cup
Lettuce - already mentioned as quite low for most forms (100mcg/HEAD)

So, I'm not surprised you didn't notice much effect whether you ate them or not.

The real winners are collard greens, kale and spinach, all at about 1000mcg/cup

The vitamin K content issue has been over-generalized to anything with a green hue and even all vegetables. Just not so. I eat spainach once in a while. I really pay essentially no attention to diet relative to warfarin as I know viatmin K is narrowly found in only a few foods. If my INR stays high, I may focus on eating more spinach, but otherwise I give it little mind. Enjoy your veggies.
 
Bill,

Thanks for stating that unambiguously. It's nice to know that the greens I enjoy are not going to be a problem (I rarely eat spinach and only had kale once). It's difficult to find information, on the web, that states it that clearly.
 
Bill, you and I can be sensitive together. :rolleyes2:

My weekly dose never changes and is 18 mg of name brand Coumadin,
and my diet includes greens several times a week; broccoli, romaine lettuce, cabbage, green beans, peas, spinach.
 
After reading Dicks thread about the brand of warfarin, I'm wondering if the same thing is happening here? Or as one gets older things change and adjustments need to done.
 
After reading Dicks thread about the brand of warfarin, I'm wondering if the same thing is happening here? Or as one gets older things change and adjustments need to done.
No, same bottle of warfarin 3mg. I get 90 days supply at a time. I just changed one day/week from 1/2 pill to 1 pill in the middle of the same bottle.
 
I probably eat more spinach than popeye, and that could have something to do with the fact that I need 11mg of Warfarin every single day just to maintain an INR in the mid 2s. I like Kale too, but I don't eat it much. I did chow down on a a mound of it the last time I had an INR upwards of 3.5. I don't know whether it made any difference at all or not, but my next weekly test was back in range.
 
Well, the experiment continues....I ate a huge spinach salad yesterday. Probably 1000mcg of vitmain K. Sometime early next week I'll get another INR. My hope is that my INR is about 2.5, down from 2.9. If it is, I'll continue to eat a mound of spinach about once a week, and continue with the other veggies. I did barbecue a tri-tip tonight! :)
 
Well, the experiment continues....I ate a huge spinach salad yesterday. Probably 1000mcg of vitmain K. Sometime early next week I'll get another INR. My hope is that my INR is about 2.5, down from 2.9. If it is, I'll continue to eat a mound of spinach about once a week, and continue with the other veggies. I did barbecue a tri-tip tonight! :)

You've just officially made me hungry. Next time your are BBQ-ing I am coming over.
 
In my somewhat limited experience with greens, it seemed as if the effect on my INR was short lived. If I have a lot of greens today, my INR would drop tomorrow. A few days later, the INR would be back to where it was before I ate the greens.

I don't think that expecting a long term effect from foods that are high in Vitamin K is a realistic expectation. (I don't think that Vitamin K has a long half-life like warfarin does)
 
The effects of vitmain K can be faily rapid in high doses. I'm not sure how long the effects last. The pharmcodymanics of warfarin and the clotting factors it effects are complex and very hard to summarize. There is a cascade of different factors, each with different chacteristics in terms of how fast they are produced and eliminated and what degree warfarin affects them and how they contribnute to the INR test.

OK, INR yesterday was 2.2. So, about 5 weeks ago my INR was 1.9 on 15mg/week, drifting down to that level over several months. 2 weeks later after increasing the dose only 10% to 16.5mg/week my INR was 2.9. On the same dose 3 weeks later it was 2.2 yesterday. During the last couple of weeks I had a spinach binge a few times. I'm going to back off just a bit, eat green stuff but only occasional, moderate amounts of spinach. I'd like to see if I can stabilize around closer to 2.5. Actually 2.2 would be roughly in-line with the 10% dosage increase if the relationship between dose and response were linear.

I ate the entire almost 3 pound tri-tip over a week. I don't think I will measure my cholesterol level for a while, but at least I know I can't be iron deficient anymore.
 
That mention of tri-tip just made me hungry, and its already after midnight. Off to the fridge to get some late night snack.
 
It's interesting that you mention Vitamin K. I've started taking a Vitamin K supplement - my wife also takes it. I'm having a hard time believing that I need to DOUBLE my dose of warfarin to stay in range.

Perhaps the delay between the time I take the Vitamin K and the time that I test my INR is more revealing of the actual INR than a test shortly after taking K. (My last test, two hours after taking K was 2.2--but I suspect that my meter reports INRs that are higher than the labs. I last took the K last night, and I'll retest this morning - at least 12 hours after my K dose and see what it tells me. It hardly makes sense that I should jump from 7.5 mg to 15 mg just to stay in range).
 
Protimenow:

How's it gone since?

I'm now on 18mg/week with an INR of 2.11. This is after a huge binge on romaine lettuce almost daily for the last couple of months. So, it's bumped my warfarin 20%. Not huge. I went in to visit my coag nurse today and she correctly noted that various lettuces have rather low amounts af vitmain K and indicated only spinach, kale and a few other "greens" are high in vitmain K. I was glad to hear her say that, as I too often hear people talk as if all gree-tinged food contains large amounts of K. Still, if you do what I did and dramatically change your lettuce intake it has SOME effect, especially if previously your vitamin K intake was very low like mine was. So, I'm hoping to keep on the lettuce kick and stabilize in the mid 2's. If the next test is OK, I'll go back to once a month testing. It's good being green.
 
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