have to be off warfarin for dental work

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Bionic Man

How long can you be off blood thinner without risking serious stuff?

I'm really paranoid of getting blood clots. For some reason just hearing my valve makes me that with every click it's creating little microscopic clots that are busted up by the blood thinner. I realize that's probably really paranoid but it's hard to stop thinking that way.

I have the good old St Jude valve that's been around for a million years.

Any advice would be gladly accepted.
Thanks!
David
 
David, what type of dental work are we talking about?? There is a lot of dental work that can be done while on Coumadin. And yes, you should be concerned about clots, it's not being paranoid. However, Coumadin is not "busting up" clots. It's keeping them from being formed. So don't continue to think that you are just always forming clots that are all being busted up and that some might "slip though the net". If you maintain your INR in the theraputic range your chance is very low for clotting.

Hopefully someone will be along soon to post the link to a chart on what dental work can be done safely while on Coumadin. I'm a bit too sleepy right now to find it.:eek:
 
more info

more info

I need to get all my wisdom teeth out and a cleaning etc etc. The doc wants to do it in one shot using nitris oxide and the whole bit. Yeah it's going to be painful visit.

The doc wants me off blood thinners for 3 days or more. I don't know if that's even possible. I think I've heard 2 days but I'm pretty ignorant.

David
 
Whoa!!!

Whoa!!!

I think that is a crazy idea. I would be willing to bet your Doc. is one of the old war horses. I had an extraction a few months ago. All the older Drs. wanted me off Warfarin. I knew better (thanks to this site, and kept looking). At least for a single extraction, the new protocal for an oral surgeon is to proceed if the INR is between 2 & 3. That's what I did, with no problem. My younger oral surgeon said that's the new training, and there are many methods to control bleeding. These are serious risks you don't need to be taking. I would keep looking, even if you can't get them all done at once!!!
 
If he will not do it anticoagulated, you need bridge therapy with Lovenox or to be put into the hospital for a heprin drip until just before the procedure and after until your in range once again. Do not go without anything!!!

See this link below. At the bottom of the article is a dental chart to use. You may want to print it out and take it to your orthodontisit.

http://www.warfarinfo.com/procedures.htm
 
At the very least you should contact your Coumadin Manager about setting up Bridge Therapy (where you are put on a short acting anti-coagulant such as Lovenox or a Heparin Drip before and after the procedure while your INR comes down).

Better yet, find a more up-to-date Oral Surgeon who will do the job while you are still anti-coagulated. This is the BEST solution!

See Al Lodwick's website www.warfarinfo.com for more inforation on Dental Procedures for Warfarin patients. If you do a SEARCH for "Bridging" you will find LOTS of discussion on this topic.

'AL Capshaw'
 
David,

You cannot safely be off coumadin for ANY length of time - the dentist doesn't know what he is doing from a coumadin standpoint. PLEASE (sorry for the caps) bridge with something (see Ross' post).

I have come to the conclusion that dentists just don't like extractions to be too messy or too long. There are many ways to stop bleeding these days but they all are used once the tooth is extracted. Therefore the dentist has to deal with the bleeding for a short time but I am sure it can be a bit messy (I had a molar extracted last year - fully anticoagulated).

Talk to your cardio.
 
Being off coumadin for three days is a serious risk. Much worse than any "bleeding" risk associated with being on coumadin during your extraction. As others have said, if you can't find someone to do it while you are on coumadin at least have some bridging therapy. The last thing that you want is to throw a clot and have a stroke.

Brad
 
cardiologist set up bridge therapy

cardiologist set up bridge therapy

Thanks for the input and suggestions.

I talked to my cardiologist and their bloodwork person immediately talked with the doc and planned bridge therapy for me.

It's complicated but i have a little calendar thing which should help a lot.

I'll let you all know how it goes assuming I can still type afterward :( :)
 
The proc went well at 1.8

The proc went well at 1.8

I got bridge therapy and had to take lovenox for a while. Strangely it doesn't show on the INR test so they can keep you on it even while testing your coumadin level. (weird) Anyway mine had dropped to only 1.8 an hour before the procedure and the dentist said that was ok so he went for it.

Whent it was all over he said I didn't really bleed at all. So crisis averted, all was well.

The crappy part, was getting the shots for 2 more days since I was starting to get sore in the all the good shot-shooting places.

Well, it's over now so that's good.
 
And the funny thing is, if you were in range, you wouldn't have bled that bad either. There guys have got to get their heads out of thier shorts and get with the program.
 
Good news

Good news

I am glad to hear things went well. I know your dental work was very extensive, and in that sense a little unusual. Please forgive me for an observation that may be of interest to others checking this thread in the future. There is every reason to believe that an "up to date" oral surgeon can confidently do a tooth extraction on a patient with an INR between 2 & 3.

You can definitely find conflicting opinions from different oral surgeons. But, after talking to several oral surgeons I came to the conclusion that these differing opinions weren't a reflection of serious questions about the "best practice". Instead, in each case that I found, oral surgeons who received their training several years ago addressed the question in the context of their training.....training they received years ago. A lot has changed since then, but they either had not kept up, or simply weren't confident about the new procedure.

I called approximately ten oral surgeons. Those who received their training in the last few years consistently told me the same thing-bring my machine to the appointment so they could review my most recent readings, and--if the reading for that day was between 2 & 3, they would perform the extraction.

My personal experience was that an extraction at 2.2 went without a hitch, and the experience was exactly as expected by my oral surgeon.

I am no Dr., but I don't think going off warfarin (assuming your recommended INR is between 2 & 3) is necessary for a normal extraction. And, of course, if you don't go off warfarin you don't have to do bridging therapy at all.
 
Hi Bionic Man,

I?d like to discuss some of the physiology of clotting that your questions bring up. However, I must first dissuade you from thinking that you are ?bionic?. When you have time do a Google search on the terms bionic and Steele. I was fortunate to work in the same USAF laboratory as Major Steele who coined the term bionics. It loosely means applying biological methods to engineering designs. You, my good friend merely have very expensive replacement parts. There is nothing about a heart valve that is bionic. It merely is a mechanical valve that is sewn into the heart.

Steve Austin played by Lee Majors in actuality was a cyborg. A cyborg refers to an organism that is a mixture of organic and mechanical parts. Unfortunately for the definition of bionics, this cyborg character was placed in a popular TV program called the ?Six Million Dollar Man? In the opening credits of the show, Oscar Goldman says, "Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to make the world's first bionic man. Steve Austin will be that man. Better than he was before. Better... stronger... faster." Thus the misconception of bionics took root in the American culture.

In spite of all of this, enjoy the life and function given to you by an expensive technology.

You indicated some questions about the INR test in relation to taking Lovenox and being off of Coumadin. Each of these two drugs affects different aspects of the clotting mechanism. They each need to be evaluated by different tests. The effect of Coumadin is tested by the INR, which measures the amount of prothrombin. Lovenox is tested by measuring the ptp (partial thromboplastin).

The risks of not being anticoagulated are NOT removed by bridging therapy. All it does is reduce the time that you are not anticoagulated. This is a function of the rapidity with which the drug effect dissipates. For a surgical procedure with major risk of blood loss and complications, the risk benefit ratio of bridging makes sense. For procedures with less risk of bleeding then bridging is NOT the method of choice, while being anticoagulated in the 2-3 range is preferable.

Let me finally point out how clots are formed on heart valves. Clots are formed by either an intrinsic or extrinsic mechanism, which meet into a common pathway. Simply, the intrinsic pathway starts when platelets come in contact with the damaged inner lining of blood vessels. This occurs with trauma such as cutting oneself. The extrinsic pathway is in part stimulated by platelets adhering to an unusual surface. A heart valve, even though made of smooth material gets covered with proteins from the blood stream and act as a focus for platelets to adhere. The Coumadin significantly reduces the chances of adhesion and further formation of clots.
 
Oddly enough with an INR of 1.8 AND Lovenox you probably bled more than you would have with an INR of 2.5. As Dr. Allan pointed out, Lovenox does not affect the INR. However it was working.

In the last few months there have been two studies published where surgery is being performed on the retina with INRs of up to 3.1.

Many dentists are so far behind in their continuing education that they just do not realize how at-risk they are for causing harm by stopping warfarin.
 
My results and my INR

My results and my INR

I followed the procedure given me by my cardiologist for bridge therapy and their lab checked my blood constantly during that time.
I was off lovenox for about 14 hours before the procedure and my INR was 1.8 so I was never far off the range.

Also of note is that I was informed by my cardiologist that the most recent studies conclusively agree that INR for a mechanical valve and no other major issues can be .5 lower than formerly required. So my range has officially been moved to 2.0 to 3.0 instead of 2.5 to 3.5. Given that I was only out of my range by .2.

I was naturally very careful in taking the bridge injections and ramping up on the warfarin as instructed and getting my INR checked several times during the process.

BTW: I picked the name bionic man for two reasons: 1) because of a glitch previously someone else was assigned my handle 2) because I'm "better stronger and faster" (all 3) than before. Despite the fact that the term may have been coined to refer to one thing, it has through it's use in popular culture, taken on a broader meaning. While I'm interested in word etymology I'm too busy for intellectual hair splitting while trying to find an free "handle" (computer term, referring to an apellation) on a message board.
 
Bionic Man said:
BTW: I picked the name bionic man for two reasons: 1) because of a glitch previously someone else was assigned my handle 2) because I'm "better stronger and faster" (all 3) than before. Despite the fact that the term may have been coined to refer to one thing, it has through it's use in popular culture, taken on a broader meaning. While I'm interested in word etymology I'm too busy for intellectual hair splitting while trying to find an free "handle" (computer term, referring to an apellation) on a message board.
Isn't that frustrating. You think up something your sure no one will have and by golly, someone has it. :D
 
Hey David.

I think Dr Allan meant well with his message - you seemed a bit annoyed in your response:eek:???

Anyway this has been a valuable thread to read, as I know I will need to go to the dentist soon. I am going to print off some of the info on Al's site and take it to show my dentist.

Bridgette:)
 
Update

Update

So being on lovenox seemed to work fine. For various things I've been through the switch regimen 3 times (one for dental, two for other procedures) It's been fine in all cases.

In an effort for full disclosure I have to say however that i did eventually develop walking pnumonia after the dental procedure because of aspirating some junk. The huge antibiotics didn't clear it out completely and I lost weight for a long time and fluid showed up on my echo later on. That almost sent me into heart surgery until my doc layered my scans and found the fluid was in my lungs not fluid from a valve infection. After massive IV antibiotics and a few days in my old heart ward at the hospital I was finally gaining weight again.

So if you aspirate something during a dental proc make sure your cardiologist watches you very closely.
 
If you haven't already, you might want to read about my nightmare with Lovenox bridging when I had all my teeth removed. I begged and supplied evidence to the Dental clinic from the ADA and their own peers about not needing to be taken off Coumadin, but would they listen? NO. I ended up in the ER two times for a bleed that would not stop.
 
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