Guess what ? That's right mechanical -v- tissue (with a hint of Ross)

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andyabernethy

VR.org Supporter
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Messages
18
Location
Manchester, England
Hi Guys

I am a 35 yr old male and on the waiting list for AVR (hopefully in the next few months). I was born with Aortic Stenosis which has now progressed to being severe. I have always been very active and sporty and I am determined to keep this up post surgery (after recovery of course). I am a keen cyclist and can cycle up to 75 miles a day (although the effects of the stenosis are beginning to reduce this somewhat - hence the need for surgery).

I really don't like the idea of a mechanical valve (I know it's irrational but I don't like the idea of being on lifetime medication and hearing the clicking noise). I want to go tissue so that it doesn't have such an impact on my life - however at my relatively young age and with my lifestyle (the valve I hear wears out quicker with strenuous exercise) am I being completely stupid??

Also anyone had the 'Ross procedure'? I would love to hear their thoughts and experiences post operation.

All the best
Andy
 
Andy, welcome to VR (I guess your are Andy-3 at present). You may have seen this said but you will need to talk with your surgeon before you make a final commitment to any one particular or even a type of valve. In general, tissue valves are easier to live with since they do not require monitored anti-coagulation therapy but their working life is limited. Mechanical valves generally function for decades but they do require monitored anti-coagulation medication. There are more issues involved, however, than ticking/not ticking and monitored anti-coagulant/daily aspirin. Valve choice can also be limited by the type of disorder effecting your heart.

I think it is a good idea to make yourself acquainted with several options, Andy, so that when you sit down with your surgeon you can discuss which may serve you better. Your surgeon may have a preference for reasons you have not considered but in any event, you will be ready to explore the possibilities with him. No one can tell you which is best for you personally but a well functioning valve will be better than what you have now.

By the way, my Uncle found the quiet sound of his St Jude mechanical very comforting and said he could only hear it when things were very quiet. On the other hand, with a tissue valve it is necessary to follow any infection closely since many bacteria can damage a tissue valve and as a tissue valve ages, it may become necessary to take anti-coagulant. No one knows how long this current generation of tissue valves will last but as DICK0236 demonstrates even some older generation mechanical valves are functioning after four decades. Saddly, it isn't always clear cut what would be better for you but you can take this time to learn about your options.

Larry
 
What people should think about is just how many times they can go through this. This is not a tonsillectomy by any stretch of the imagination. You should plan on going through it 1 time and 1 time only, if it can be helped. There are no guarantees no matter what valve you choose, as far as possible reops, but mechanical would lessen those chances significantly. I cannot justify having multiple reops over taking a pill every day. In my opinion, the risks presented with reops are far higher then any risk associated with anticoagulation. I'm no fan of Ross procedures either. I've seen too many fail shortly after being done. There are a few here that have Ross's that have served them well so far, but they are few.

We hear it from every new person coming in here about not wanting to be on anticoagulation, not wanting to hear ticking, believing their lifestyle and diets would have to change when they don't, etc,. Fact is, even though most everyone does well with surgery, there are a few who won't. None of us has a crystal ball and can tell you what your experience is going to be like. Should it turn into a nightmare, do you think you'd really want to go through it again? Ask those that have had surgery more then once if they now problems that they didn't have before their second surgeries and I think you'll find most of them have suffered some sort of complication as a result of the second surgery. Ask those on anticoagulation how dangerous it is.
 
You know, everyone has their own tolerances for either additional surgeries or taking a drug that, contrary to what some here may have you believe, very much has risks that you take for the rest of your life. You need to decide for yourself what is acceptable for you and your lifestyle. That's what everyone on here has done.

I'm one of those that Ross is speaking of who has had more than one surgery and am looking at more since I have a tissue valve. I developed a rhythm problem after this last surgery (which was my second), but it had NOTHING to do with the fact that it was my second surgery. What happened to me would have happened had it been my first or my tenth! It was caused by a patch that was sewn into my heart. That patch would have been sewn into the exact same place in the first or tenth surgery. Other than that, my surgery went fine. And by the way, the odds for survival for BOTH first and second surgeries are about the same...98-99%. While having heart surgery is not one of my favorite things to do, I'm very confident in the medical team that I have surrounded myself with and their ability to successfully take care of me.

So, educate yourself, make your decision based on your life, and then don't look back. Good luck.
 
Andy -

I am facing that decision myself right now. You can read my terrified and confused thread. Leaning toward the On-x valve. One thing I did want to pass along is that my surgeon (and every sugeon I spoke to) do not support the Ross procedure except in children. They say that that procedure takes a single valve problem and makes it a multi-valve problem. They said they are having to constantly fix people who have had this procedure done.
 
Everything Ross said. To each our own, I chose mechanical have no regret what so ever, what's taking a pill everyday after 2 years i feel my life is better then it has ever been, I love the ticking makes me feel alive, I eat what I want, I exercise as much as i want and I just thank god for a second chance in life. It is your decision!!
 
Disclaimer - I'm not trying to convince you one way or another. I TOTALLY support those that have chosen a different path (I've gotten to be good friends with some of them on here in fact). I just feel a responsibility to share the results of my own personal research on this topic, because I think it's important to hear from both "sides". At the end, I'll also share what I've found to be the cons of the path I've chosen, having now been through it. To me, as long as you know what you're signing up for, either choice can be a good one. But it IS important to know what you're signing up for because there are pros and cons to each. It would suck if you didn't realize the ramifications of whichever choice you make, then down the road find out something that would have changed your mind. That's all many of us are trying to make sure of - that you know what you signed up for. Information is power...

So with that disclaimer, I'll give my personal opinions - and again, these are just my personal opinions (right or wrong). Others will disagree with me, and that's ok. You have to make your own decision on where you want to place your bets. This is just the background on why I selected the path I did.

Like you, I was originally leaning heavily towards tissue for the same reasons you mention (active, didn't want lifestyle changes, or to be on meds rest of my life, etc.). See my original post back in March: http://www.valvereplacement.org/forums/showthread.php?34663-48-year-old-newbie-Lots-of-questions-to-come

After I wrote the above post in March, I had a long talk with my surgeon about topics including the Ross procedure, mechanical vs. tissue, minimally invasive approaches, etc. I believe him to be a very well respected valve replacement surgeon (great references, including me now, is involved in research on the newer techniques, etc.). He told me he would do a tissue on me if I really, really wanted but strongly advised against it, mainly due to my relatively young age (49). But he said if I wanted a Ross procedure, to go somewhere else - he wouldn't even do it. He told me that a surgeon buddy of his is the one who operated on Arnold Schwartzenegger and used the Ross procedure - it failed very quickly. And he said that's not at all uncommon with the Ross procedure in adults.

Some will argue with this, but he also told me the second surgery does carry an increased risk, and the 3rd one is significantly higher (something like 6% or 9% by the 3rd one). Those statistics that say 2nd surgeries have the same risk as the first may be true, although that doesn't really pass my common sense test (for the reasons Ross mentions above). But let's say it is true that the 2nd surgery has the same risk as the first. And let's say that risk is 2%. Well, if I'm doing my math right, by the time you've had your second surgery, you've subjected yourself to a 2% risk TWICE. In other words, since 2+2 = 4, my math says you've now had a 4% risk overall. And that's not to mention the financial impact of a second surgery. I've got great insurance so most of the $125,000+ was covered. But what if I'm layed off or something and don't have insurance 7 years from now... That all went through my head.

In addition, he told me the same thing I've heard from many of the experienced folks in here, which is that tissue valves don't last as long in younger folks. So instead of 10-15 years like I was hoping, he said it's more like 7 years for folks my age. Now, there will be several who argue that today's tissue valves last longer than that in younger folks. I just wasn't willing to take the chance.

And then, after talking to many that have been on Warfarin for decades with no issues, I began to realize it's not as bad as I first thought. I can now confirm (while I'm still new to the game) that it's usually not a big deal at all to be on Warfarin. None of my original fears (other than having to put up with periodic finger pricks - I hate needles) have proven true. You can drink (although probably smart to do it with some moderation), you can get a cut without bleeding to death, you don't bruise easily like I'd heard, you don't have to alter your diet, etc, etc.

So those were the Pros for the choice I made. Now, here are the cons of this choice (from someone who's now gone through it). The Warfarin does require you to monitor your INR, which means periodic finger pokes and it is important to remember to take your pill each day. There is a relatively small inconvenience if you cut yourself or otherwise start bleeding (i.e. scratch off a scab or something). That inconvenience is it takes about twice as long to stop the bleeding. There are some things that I'll think twice about now before doing (i.e. riding a motorcycle or getting a tattoo) but that doesn't mean I won't do them (in fact probably will still do both). I have been a little more careful with drinking (switching over to water or pop after 3 or 4 beers, instead of drinking 6 or 8). I do hear my valve ticking when I stop and think about it. Most of the time it's just white noise. It doesn't prevent me from falling asleep, but I am slightly concerned about someone sleeping w/ me - will it keep them up, esp. if they're laying on my chest, etc. Those are about the only cons I can think of so far. And for me, the pros of the mechanical choice outweighed the cons, so that's the direction I went (and am still happy about it). But again, there are others who are just as happy with the other choice. I'm all for that, as long as everyone knows what you're signing up for!
 
This isn't a contest to see who sides with who. If thats a game you want to play, your playing on the wrong forum. I care about one thing and one thing only. The persons life that is being placed at risk during this surgery. I've seen far too much happen in 9 years of being here. I've seen people die after their very first surgery and even some nearly die from their first. I've seen young people, forever screwed up from there first surgery, trying to avoid the evil anticoagulant, all to nearly lose their life and be put on it anyway and know that they face this surgery again in the future. This is not some kind of game to be played. This is a life changing experience that no one should have to ever go through, but we don't always have that choice. Were lucky to live in an age when it's not an instant death sentence, but have an opportunity to live life again. You can stand here and offer statistics all you want too. Fact is, if you don't fall into them, what darn good are they? If you stick around here long enough, you'll watch some more people die. With each one that I place in the In loving memory forum, a piece of me goes with them.

I know this post is going to scare some people. It's not meant to scare, but to open your eyes as to what you are going to walk into. Most people do just fine, in fact, a lot have textbook experiences with surgery. The problem is, not everyone does and to represent otherwise is lying to you. No one here holds the mystical crystal ball and can tell you what your experience is going to be like. It may be just great and it may be the ultimate nightmare. That's just the nature of this surgery. If you cannot comprehend what I'm saying to you, have said to you,etc, then I give up. I'm getting too old, too tired, too tried, to keep on keeping on. If caring about an individuals life is the ultimate sin, then I'm guilty as charged.

http://www.heart-valve-surgery.com/heart-valve-surgery-complications.php

As you can see on the chart below, 66% of patients responded that they encountered some form of heart valve surgery complication following surgery.
 
The thing is Ross, People who say coumadin DOES have risks and the chances of dieing or ending up in very bad shape because of surgery IS the same as dieing or ending up in bad shape because you chose a mechanical valve amd need coumadin are not trying to play games. It isn't a game, but IF we want the people to make truly informed choices we should be honest with ALL the risks, not just the surgery risk and down play coumadin. Since these choices are important in people lives.
EVERYONe care about the other members and wishes no one ever needed surgery or had to take any meds, but trying to point out that the risks are the same with either choice, does NOT mean we don't care about what happens to people.

Noone ever says there is NO risk to surgery and that you can end up with complications or die, so that isn't a lied about. BUT a life on coumadin IS just as dangerous, or safe depending how you choose to look at it, as choosing a tissue valve and having 1 or more surgery. Just like you never know who will have trouble with surgery, you also do not know who will die or have a massive stroke because they have a mechanical valve and need coumadin. Good mangament of Coumadin will lower your chances of having problems, just like going to the best surgeons for REDO surgeries improve your odds of surving surgery. BUT it does NOT make coumadin a safe drug. People can go years fine with perfect INRs and one day have a major problem because of an accident or fall, or just something happens that causes a brain bleed. and I DO believe the risk of coumadin is often really down played here. IF there were NOT risk to coumadin everyone would just get mechanical valves and big companies and hospitals wouldn't be spending millions of dollars to eith come up with a drug safer than coumadin OR be doing trials so hopefully you can have valves replaced in the cath lab so you can avoid coumadin and REDOS. People wouldn't be excited about the ON-X valve because it MIGHT be able to not need coumadin.
People who try to point out BOTH choices are good choices are not playing games or think any of this is funny.
Some people rather take their chances having surgery, and dealing with the risks when they MAY need another operation. For them they don't understand why people rather take coumadin and any day may have a problem. Other people don't understand why anyone would choose to sign up for another surgery in the future.
It also isn't a fact that everyone that has 2 or more surgeries have problems because of them.
 
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Andy, if you do decide to have a Ross procedure, I would suggest you have a surgeon who is very experienced with them and does a lot of them.

Irrational ideas or feelings should not be a part of anyone's decision making; the decision should be made on facts. I found it a lot easier to make my decision on a valve based on facts.
 
Andy,

Here's some information on the various options I have gleened from reading these forums for several years.

In the Tissue Valve Arena, the Bovine Pericardial Tissue Valve has the longest durability but typically has a pressure gradient of 10 mmHg. Fine for most people, but Competitive Athletes like to have the Lowest Gradient they can get. Some early recipients who were in their 60's at the time of surgery have reached 20 years of service. Younger people get less. A couple of young women who chose Bovine to have children managed to get 10 years and one or two kids each.

Straight From the Pig Porcine Tissue Valves have the shortest longevity, typically 8 to 12 years, but often less.
The New and Improved Porcine Tissue Valves have very Low Gradients (hence their appeal to athletic types) but have not been out long enough to know how long they will last. We have had several "Early Failures" (1 to 7 years) among our ~1500 current members.

It is my understanding that The Cleveland Clinic (#1 rated Heart Hospital) has stopped recommending the Ross Procedure because of "Early Failures". You may want to verify this from their website or by direct contact. The Most Prolific Ross Procedure Surgeon in the USA is Dr. Paul Stelzer in New York with over 400 performed. Besides being the most prolific, his patients also believe he is the Best (or certainly one of the best) in terms of successful outcomes. There have been several 'less favorable outcomes, including death' from 'less experienced Ross Procedure Surgeons.

In the Mechanical Valve Arena, I am highly impresssed with the advanced technology available in the relatively new (1996) On-X Valves. See www.heartvalvechoice.com and www.onxvalves.com for more information. For Durability, the St. Jude Master's Series Valves have a 30 year track record and counting. See www.sjm.com for more information.
Other options include ATS and Carbomedics which are 'offshoots' of the early St. Jude Valves. ALL 4 of these valves were designed, at least in part, by Jack Bokros, Ph.D., who formed On-X to produce his "latest and greatest" mechanical valve. Do a Search on VR.org for keyword "Bokros" and select "any date" for more information on his background.

'AL Capshaw'
 
So your going to try to convince me and a whole bunch of others that anticoagulation presents more risks then mulitple reops? Show me what's killed more people. Anticoagulation or surgeries. Of course it's very easy to say how dangerous anticoagulation is when your not on it. If you lived on it and with it, you'd soon find where the pitfalls are and I can pretty much guarnantee the risk is far less then additional surgeries are. A gun is dangerous in the inexperienced persons hands or those that have never used one, but people have made peace with it. There are other drugs far more lethal then Coumadin, yet people take them without giving it a second thought, but don't give putting their lives on the line for surgery a secpmd thought either. I'm trying to make people give it that second thought.

You know, I'm really tired of trying to bring to light some things and being dissed about it at every turn. Maybe I'll just stop caring so much then the world will be peaceful and lovely and nothing bad will happen ever again.
 
This isn't a contest to see who sides with who. If thats a game you want to play, your playing on the wrong forum. I care about one thing and one thing only. The persons life that is being placed at risk during this surgery. I've seen far too much happen in 9 years of being here. I've seen people die after their very first surgery and even some nearly die from their first. I've seen young people, forever screwed up from there first surgery, trying to avoid the evil anticoagulant, all to nearly lose their life and be put on it anyway and know that they face this surgery again in the future. This is not some kind of game to be played. This is a life changing experience that no one should have to ever go through, but we don't always have that choice. Were lucky to live in an age when it's not an instant death sentence, but have an opportunity to live life again. You can stand here and offer statistics all you want too. Fact is, if you don't fall into them, what darn good are they? If you stick around here long enough, you'll watch some more people die. With each one that I place in the In loving memory forum, a piece of me goes with them.

I know this post is going to scare some people. It's not meant to scare, but to open your eyes as to what you are going to walk into. Most people do just fine, in fact, a lot have textbook experiences with surgery. The problem is, not everyone does and to represent otherwise is lying to you. No one here holds the mystical crystal ball and can tell you what your experience is going to be like. It may be just great and it may be the ultimate nightmare. That's just the nature of this surgery. If you cannot comprehend what I'm saying to you, have said to you,etc, then I give up. I'm getting too old, too tired, too tried, to keep on keeping on. If caring about an individuals life is the ultimate sin, then I'm guilty as charged.
Many of us here have dealt with heart issues and personally been around heart patients for decades, Ross.

And all of the patients or members here care about our lives, and that's why we educate ourselves and we're making our best choice, based on our individual makeup, and choosing life through surgery.

There are many reasons why a person may choose the valve that they and their highly- and multi-experienced and educated doctors feel is uniquely best for them, whatever valve that may be.

It's a personal decision.

Lack of agreement does not mean lack of comprehension.

This site is about support.
 
Playing down Risks?

Playing down Risks?

Who's engaged in playing down the risks associated with coumadin? The vast majority of posts on this forum simply convey the experiences of members and the majority of the advice that's offered here is based on the experiences members have had.

For what it's worth, I haven't had a bad experience with coumadin yet. This statement isn't intended to downplay risks; it simply conveys the experience I've had so far. Should I have a bad experience with coumadin, the members of this forum can count on hearing about it from me.

I've never looked at research statistics comparing complications from surgery redos and coumadin use. Frankly, that kind of stuff is a non-issue for me as I'd much rather play the odds of avoiding future surgery and yes, that's a personal thing.

Yeah, I had fears about dealing with management of coumadin and even worried about a clicking, ticking valve making me crazy or keeping me awake at night. Sure, experiences vary, but my personal experience has simply been that those fears and worries have been non-issues. That's not downplaying anything; it's conveying my experience.

From a practical standpoint, I really hope my mechanical valve keeps me out of the operating room. The surgery to implant it cost me over $60,000.00 out of my own pocket. I couldn't afford it then and I don't think I could afford it again. My health insurance situation really hasn't improved much since 2007. I doubt that those who opt for tissue valves with the knowledge that reops will likely follow play down the financial risks associated with repeat surgeries; they probably are fortunate enough to have decent health insurance.

I often state that there are no bad choices when someone chooses one type of valve over another; the only bad choice is to not have a defective valve replaced. I sincerely believe that. If you opt to go tissue over mechanical or opt to go the other way, good for you. Just get things fixed and move along with your life.

Hopefully, these kinds of debates don't evolve into any kind of "my valve is better than yours" silliness.

-Philip
 
I had a difficult second surgery yet prior to surgery while I leaned strongly to mechanical, I sitll had a bit of a debate with myself. Now that I know the outcome I'm very happy to have gone mechanical lessening my chance for a needed third VR. Statistically I should have had a second surgery that was no problem. I went to the best surgeon I could at a great hospital, yet I barely made it. You just never know.
 
Ross, do you ever feel like you're banging your head against a wall? I have been through a brain bleed, but I don't blame it on coumadin, it was the staph infection that wanted to kill me. My docs have never presented me with a horrible coumadin scenario. I am getting up there in age, but my docs aren't worried about my long term use. I test weekly, and my INR is almost always in range. I didn't choose a tissue for my 2nd valve, and was worried that I would have to have one for my 3rd surgery. I didn't want to have a 4th in about 10yrs. I look better than I have in years and my heart feels better, too. I got a 25mm mech valve this time around and it is a keeper. But, how can one believe that the risk for a 3rd surgery is the same as for the 1st? I heard it was around 25 % for the 3rd. Where is this 2% coming from, the Cleveland Clinic?
 
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