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Debbrn

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 7, 2005
Messages
439
Location
southeast
Background: I am a 41 yr old with tetralogy of fallot. 3rd surgery 1990 for a cadavar pulmonary valve.
Facts:
1)The best cardio in my state for adult congenital patients is a peds cardio.
2)When I saw him 1 1/2 yrs ago I asked him how many adult pts he saw. His response was "enough". I said I know, but how many. He figured about 300 pt visits per year.
3)Last year when I asked him if the hospital had a surgeon that could do my surgery his response was "you do not have to worry about that, the surgery is not that technically difficult".
4)When I asked him when he would know when it was time for my next surgery he was very vague and said the most important part is the size of the right ventricle. When the right ventricle is 2x the size of the left. He did not mention any other factors except exercise intolerance. He wanted to "procrastinate as long as possible". He ordered an MRI. The MRI report did not mention my pulmonary or tricuspid valve at all.
5)Right ventricle is dilated and dysfunctional with decreased EF. Left ventricle mildly dysfunctional with decreased EF. Right ventricle 1.8x size of left.

I decided that I was not comfortable with his responses. I went to the adult congenital clinic at Boston children's last month for an evaluation. I learned that 85% if the blood is going to the right lung and only 15% is going to the left lung. According to their MRI my pulmonary regurg is 30% and my tricuspid regurg is 20%. GXT showed VO2 of 17.9ml/kg and that I am unable to increase my stroke volume appropriately with exercise. The Boston cardio suggested use of a Beta-blocker at some point because of the left ventricle dysfunction.

When I came back I called the thoracic surgeon's offices at my cardio's hospital. Surgeon #1 only does children. Surgeon #2 has only done 7-10 in the past year. I had rulled out surgeon #3 a long time ago. I called the surgeon's office in Boston and he does about 25/hr.

Because of the new information that I was unaware of I requested that she speak with my local cardio and send the records to him. She did both. In her letter she wrote "The question of timing of subsequent pulmonary valve replacement is difficult, as she does meet several parameters at this time." When I asked her when I might need PVR done, she just said it depends on the changes over time.

I called my local cardio today because they had now both talked about using beta blockers at some point. I told the nurse that I dreaded going on beta blockers and that if the cardio wanted me to go on beta blockers that I just as well get a appointment scheduled and get started so that I did not have to wait and worry. They reply was that he did talk to the Boston cardio that he had not learned anything new and that nothing was urgent and that he did not want to see me until October.

I am frustrated because I am afraid that the Boston cardio will play a subordinate role to my local cardio even when she might be the one that needs to call the shots and that my local cardio is not going to listen to a word from Boston.

Debbie
 
What a frustrating situation. It is one that I have witnessed many times with Joe. Once he had 3 heart surgeries and numerous other major surgeries under his belt, his doctors started dragging their feet with any aggressive treatments involving surgery. I believe that is what you are seeing.

Non surgical treatments were the recommended procedure at that point. One doctor came right out and said that Joe was so high risk that he would delay surgery until it became mandatory with a life-threatening problem.

In my naivete, I thought that it was way too conservative. However, I came to realize that there comes a time when conservative attitudes should be used, and just going in and performing surgery may not be the best approach until all other avenues are exhausted, if there are many risk factors.

Unfortunately, it is a risk to benefit ratio that comes into play.

Apparently, your doctors do not feel your test results are bad enough to warrant another surgery right now, and will follow you carefully to look for any changes.

I also found that in this kind of scenario, the patient's symptoms were not given as much weight as they would have been for a less operated on person. The test results became the ruling thing.

This is quite different than someone going into surgery for the first or second time.
 
I'm in a similar situation regarding "risk / reward" ratio.
Cardiologists all recommend taking a "wait and see" attitude since I am functioning reasonably well as long as I don't over-exert myself and the risks are fairly significant (OHS#3 with complications from Radiation Damage). One surgeon is pushing for surgery, another says "it's your decision...call me when your quality of life becomes unacceptable"

I've forgotten what state you are in, but there should be other good surgeons / hospitals in the SouthEast that you could go to for additional opinions. Duke in NC, Emory in GA, UAB in ALA (Dr. David McGiffin is EXCELLENT and will hear you out and give you his frank opinion...GREAT GUY and GREAT (Transplant) Surgeon.) I'm not familiar with the Hospitals in TN.

Regarding Beta Blockers, I had good results from a Low Dose of Toprol XL and now a low dose of Sotalol (for A-Fib). My Cardio believes in using only the lowest dose that provides relief / improvement and works to find that optimal level.

'AL Capshaw'
 
Have you had problems with beta blockers in the past? Maybe you should try it out and see how it goes. I am sure the cardio in Boston will write you a script. Then you can see if you have any bad side effects. It won't hurt to try.

Brad
 
Justin has a different main CHD than you, but his rastelli repair for TGA, has alot of similar things to TOF, since he has a conduit/ pulm valve from his right ventricle to pulm artery. (actually he never had a pulm valve until his surgery 2 years ago when he was
If it makes you feel any better Boston ACHD docs are very good. I would contact them and asks exactly why they aren't recomending surgery now and what "number" they are wathing to decide when to, maybe you could even ask the doctor you email you, since it's easier for me to reread something until I really understand it and have it in writing instead of remeberring what they said.
Justin went there (Boston ACHD) a couple years ago before his last surgery. He wasn't 18, butwe were looking for a new doctor and since he was 15,16, I didn't want to start w/ a ped card and just when we get to know each other have to change docs again. and i had all his recents test sent to them (Dr.Knaugh) to get their opinions about this surgery. Personally If i had doubts, I would contact other centers, many of the ones that specialize in CHD will give opinions from the records and you don't have to travel there. I'm not sure where you live but if it Would it make you feel better to contact another ACHD center and pick their brains? I really have been impressed w/ Dr.Webb at Philly, Justin had his last surgery and will have this one at CHOP by Dr.Spray, I didn't ask all his latest stats, since I did 2 years ago. Dr Webb wrote the bethesda guidelines on taking care of adults w/ CHD, which that and the fact philly is so close, is why we decided to go to him. I like having an odd number of opinions, so there won't be any "ties", but so far, all the centers(including Boston) we've used have agreed when Justin needs surgery and when it isn't time.
I think since it is the pulm valve they tend to wait a little longer for REDOs too unless you are having symptons or the pressures are really bad.
I understand the whole waiting until the benifits out weigh the risks, we put off Justin's last surgery a few years for that reason, but they were able to help him temp in the cath lab. For Justin, the main thing we follow to decide what to do is the pressure in his right ventricle and the pressure gradient. I have his latest MRI report and from what i can tell they only mentioned the valves that were leaking or had a problem, so it didn't mention his pulm valve either. (His obstruction is before the valve, his pulm valve itsself is "fine')
 
Sounds like a frustrating wait-and-worry situation. However, I wonder along with Brad if you've had bad experience with beta blockers that make you dread them. Granted, there are possible side-effects but there are many benefits for dealing with various heart problems. I've been on them (metoprolol) for more than two years.

Here is a link to a Mayo Clinic article about beta blockers:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/beta-blockers/HI00059

All best wishes to you. Hope the pathway to treatment will become clearer.
 
Thanks everyone,

I have not been on beta blockers. I just know that some people do not tolerate them very well and I tend to be very sensitive to side effects. I don't mind trying them out, I just wish my cardio had told me if he plans on putting me on them now or later.

I did e-mail the Boston cardio about what changes she would want to see before she thought that I needed my next PVR. She was not very specific.

Also a correction. The Boston surgeon does 25/yr not 25/hr.

At the time of the MRI at the local cardio the pulmonary and tricuspid valves were leaking according to the echo. I can't figure out why they were not mentioned when we knew that they were abnormal. The MRI does such a better job of quantifying regurg and volumes.

I don't think that I need surgery now. I figure I will need it in the next 1-3 years.

Debbie
 
I called up Dr. Valente in Boston a couple of weeks ago and told her that I want her to be the captain of my heart team. She wants me to come up to Boston next April or May and repeat the MRI and possibly do a heart cath. She wants to check on the pressures and look at the pulmonary arteries. They will also look at the coronary arteries during the cath. She will go ahead a set up a meet and greet appointment with the surgeon.

I finally had my yearly follow-up with my local "ACHD" last week. I was planning on telling my local cardio that I had decided to let Boston take the lead. I chickened out when he completely blow off everything I had to say during the appointment. I just did not have the energy to handle the conversation. He completely blow off all the tests that were done in Boston. All he said about the thorough MRI was that "they got all lot of pretty pictures". When I told him that I could not do as much as I could do last year he implied that I was just getting older. When I talked about trying to cut my work hours, he said that "we would all like to retire". He said that "everything is fine". He said that "if I needed OHS again, that they may also work on the tricuspid valve again". He wants to wait until UAB can do the PVR replacement in the cath lab. They would be great, but he has no idea how many years it will be until UAB can do it. My entire appointment lasted no longer than 30 minutes including the echo.

I called Dr. McGiffin's office last year and he only did 7-10 PVRs last year compared to 25/yr by Dr. Bacha. My cardio is at UAB.

I did find out that they are hiring another peds cardio. How is that going to help this 42 year old.

Debbie
 
Sounds like you should be saying "adios" to your local guy. Who wants a doctor that just wants to sit around and wait while you get worse.

Best wishes.
 
Glad you made this decision, Debbie and look forward to hearing that you are more confident and satisfied after you meet with Dr. Valente.
 
Debbrn said:
I finally had my yearly follow-up with my local "ACHD" last week. I was planning on telling my local cardio that I had decided to let Boston take the lead. I chickened out when he completely blow off everything I had to say during the appointment. I just did not have the energy to handle the conversation. He completely blow off all the tests that were done in Boston. All he said about the thorough MRI was that "they got all lot of pretty pictures". When I told him that I could not do as much as I could do last year he implied that I was just getting older. When I talked about trying to cut my work hours, he said that "we would all like to retire". He said that "everything is fine". .....
I did find out that they are hiring another peds cardio. How is that going to help this 42 year old.

Debbie:

You are still YOUNG at 42.

Fire the guy and get another doctor. And I'd let the doctor know why you're booting him. Maybe he does this this many of his patients.
 
I agree with the others, that am glad you are making Boston your main guys.I don't know if you've check the ACHA clinic listing since they updated them,but they have how many ACHD surgeries the center does each year, total not broken down by surgery, (Boston did 230, UAB did 30, but to be fair many places do less than 50) They also list how many ACHD patients they see a year.http://www.achaheart.org/for_members/clinicdirectory/index.php
you have to register to check them out, if you haven't been there since they redid the site, you may have to reregister.
As for the Pulm replacement in the cath lab, Boston is already doing clinical trials on them. When I talked to them before Justin's surgery in May, we still weren't sure if his valve needed replaced or the conduit, and they told me IF it was his pulm valve he might be a candidate for the trials since he had multiple surgeries already. He ended up needing a section of his conduit replaced, so I didn't get details about how many they had done/success rate.
Thanks for updating, i've wonderred how you were doing. Lyn
 
Thank you everyone for your reply.

Dr. Valente does not think that I am a candidate for the PVR via cath because she thinks that I need my tricuspid valve worked on again also. I am curious how much benefit I would get from just replacing the pulmonary valve in the cath lab and leaving everything else alone. The right ventricle is already so dilated that I do not expect to feel much better after surgery. My goal would be to slow down the progression of right ventricle failure.

My local cardio is the best the state has to offer. What is so frustrating is that if you look at the clinic notes from the past 10 years, you can't tell what changes have taken place. If things have progressed very slowly then I would think that I could wait longer for my PVR. There is just no way to tell. He has only done 1 partial MRI in the past 10 years. He has never done any exercise tolerance testing. My last cath was 9 years ago. His reasoning for waiting is that he does not know if doing anything would help and that he could certainly make things worse. My concern is that if we wait to long than nothing will help. I have to have a local cardio in case I end up in the ER. My local cardio has the most experience of anyone in the state.

I have looked at ACHA's clinic list many times.

Debbie
 
Debb,

You keep refering to your Cardio as the "Best in the state" and have mentioned UAB and Dr. McGiffin (EXCELLENT Heart and Lung Transplant Surgeon).

SO, are you in Alabama?

and WHO is this "Best Cardio"?

'AL Capshaw' from North Alabama
 
ALCapshaw2 said:
Debb,

You keep refering to your Cardio as the "Best in the state" and have mentioned UAB and Dr. McGiffin (EXCELLENT Heart and Lung Transplant Surgeon).

SO, are you in Alabama?

and WHO is this "Best Cardio"?

'AL Capshaw' from North Alabama

Not speaking for Deb, but I believe she is talking the best in the state for adults w/CHD since she mentioned in her first post he is a ped card.
 
Deb - he may be the best in the state for a lot of people, but it's clear that he is not for you. Time to change. I've had "best" doctors really mess me up.
 
Debbrn said:
...I finally had my yearly follow-up with my local "ACHD" last week. I was planning on telling my local cardio that I had decided to let Boston take the lead. I chickened out when he completely blow off everything I had to say during the appointment. I just did not have the energy to handle the conversation. He completely blow off all the tests that were done in Boston. All he said about the thorough MRI was that "they got all lot of pretty pictures". When I told him that I could not do as much as I could do last year he implied that I was just getting older. When I talked about trying to cut my work hours, he said that "we would all like to retire". He said that "everything is fine"...
I wonder if my former and pre-OHS cardio was this guy's evil twin?!? We ran to a different county for our next testing. And we confirmed the final diagnosis by consulting with three excellent and highly recommended surgeons.

I'm sorry for what you are going through and I hope you will find some accurate answers soon.

Those "Risk vs. Reward" comments from last May regarding complicated surgeries were very interesting and my personal experience was not regarding a very complicated situation. Best wishes.
 
Pvr

Pvr

Hi Debbie, if your right ventricle is already very enlarged and valve isn't working then what are they waiting for?? My cardio said my pulmonary valve is "wide open" which I'm sure means it's not working much. They say I have moderate right heart dilatation and my tricuspid valve has mild regurgitation. They say the longer I wait the larger my right side will get. What do they want to get worse before they"ll do surgery??? Also, how bad is your tricusid valve that they feel they need to repair it?? Thanks Debbie
 
Debbie,

My tricuspid valve is also leaking with a 20% regurg fraction via MRI. The possible plan is when the PVR is done, to repeat the tricuspid valve repair. When I saw Dr. Valente last april she did not feel that anything was urgent. We will repeat the MRI next april and probably do a heart cath. I will also meet with surgeon.

The problem is that this will be my fourth surgery and it will not be the final intervention that will need to be done. They are trying to wait as long as possible. I really feel that I will being having surgery in the next year or two. With my lung functions being decreased, that also increases the risk of doing the surgery. Also my physical abilities seemed to be relatively stable subjectively until now. Since my local doc never did exercise testing we do not have any objective data. When I had my work-up in Boston last april it was the first good baseline that I have had.

Debbie
 
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