Dog bite

[Marty]

From the Post this A.M. Excerpt from an article about a Calvert County man bitten by his pit bull. " Raymond Tomco,78, who was found dead on the floor of his Lusby home Wednesday afternoon with bites on his hands and arms, had a severed artery in his left forearm from a dog bite said Cpl. Darron Makrokanis of the county Sheriff's Office.Tomco had been taking a prescription anticoagulant,Coumadin, used to treat and prevent blood clots and that could have made the bleeding worse, he said."

 

[LUVMyBirman]

Hi Marty,

Well, I am sorry to read this. But....happy it is not you. Was not sure with the title of your post!

I think the artery would have done anyone in. Don't you think? The neighborhood we were to move to in Maryland forbidded property owners to keep a Pit or Rottweiler on premises. Along with no fences, clothes lines, etc etc. Guess they were tying to keep it safe and tidy. I did agree with the dogs. No offense to anyone that may own a pit. They are just known to be a danger. I am sure that older gentleman did not do much to provoke. Victim.

 

[Andyrdj]

Sad

Sad

You'll hear many tales of people on coudamin/warfarin who will take exception to this kind of story.

It's not entirely representative of their life, so fair enough.

But I do sometimes feel reading this site that an impression of "no danger at all" might be gained.

Clearly there is risk of bleeding more in certain situations, and while many of the horror stories aren't real, there must be some genuine risks. Do users carry around some sort of "instant clot" spray to stop bleeding? Or special dressings?

What, honestly, are the risks? Is it the opinion of readers that this man's risk was only slightly aggravated? What sort of bleeding can be staunched?

 

[PamO]

Couple of things jump out at me..."was found dead on his floor..." okay...so that means he bled out before he was found. If the artery was torn/severed, it's a matter of minutes - being on A/C wouldn't matter a jot or tittle, I feel.

Al???

 

[Karlynn]

There is no doubt that Coumadin will cause someone who has severed a major artery to bleed out more quickly than someone who isn't. But it's my guess that the amount of time is truly negligable. Injuries do put us at greater risk for bleeding. This is why we wear medical alert jewelry and carry cards that will tell people that we are on warfarin should we be unconscious and not able to tell. I have a message taped on the front of my driver's license that says "Taking Coumadin - at risk for bleeding." I want to make sure that if I am unconscious, action is taken more quickly than usual to make sure I don't have internal bleeding.

I would also tend to agree that, chances are, this man would have bled out regardless of whether he was on Coumadin, since there was obviously no one around to know this had happened to him because he was "found dead". People do die from severed arteries - not just those on Coumadin.

The reality is that "yes" there is a risk for bleeding when taking Coumadin. And the other reality is that there are very few accident situation that Coumadin makes the difference between a life-ending situation and not life-ending. If help is there, bleeding can be stopped. It may take more effort, and may be a bit more of a pain in the @$$, but it doesn't end life nearly to the extent that some in the medical community would make people think so. I think we all take our life in our hands much more by driving a car, or crossing the street than by taking warfarin. But these are "normal" activities so no one stops to worry about those risks too much. What about aspirin - aspirin causes bleeding too? But people don't give much thought to being put on daily aspirin therapy.

Severing major arteries puts anyone at great risk of death - not just warfarin users. This is why bad guys now aim at the groin of people wearing kevlar vests. They are hoping to hit a major artery.

 

[JimL]

Does "he said" at the end refer back to "Cpl. Darron Makrokanis of the county Sheriff's Office"? He seems to be as knowledgeable about coumadin as some other medical experts.

 

[Marguerite53]

That story was on our NW news last night. I believe they had to shoot one of the dogs because they could not even get close to the poor man's body due to the dog growling over him. I think this was something akin to a shark attack, but on land. Who knows how he had trained these dogs. I suspect he was gone fairly quickly, coumadin or not.

Speaking of anti-clotting substances....what about when you trim your dogs' nails and you use stiptic type powder (it's bright yellow, dusty, in a little jar) when you mistakenly hit the quick. WHy wouldn't something like that work? Probably hurt like hell, of course.

Marguerite

 

[Marty]

Does "he said" at the end refer back to "Cpl. Darron Makrokanis of the county Sheriff's Office"? He seems to be as knowledgeable about coumadin as some other medical experts.

Yes, that is a direct quote by the officer. In my experience riding an ambulance as an intern 50 + years ago, officers always checked unconcious or dead patients wallets and purses for medicines or medical records and told me about anything they found. So if you take Coumadin, keep a record in your wallet or in a chain around your neck or wrist.

 

[Marty]

That story was on our NW news last night. I believe they had to shoot one of the dogs because they could not even get close to the poor man's body due to the dog growling over him. I think this was something akin to a shark attack, but on land. Who knows how he had trained these dogs. I suspect he was gone fairly quickly, coumadin or not.

Speaking of anti-clotting substances....what about when you trim your dogs' nails and you use stiptic type powder (it's bright yellow, dusty, in a little jar) when you mistakenly hit the quick. WHy wouldn't something like that work? Probably hurt like hell.

Marguerite

If I was bit and noted arterial bleeding from my arm I would take my belt and use it for a tourniquet.

 

[Ross]

You'll hear many tales of people on coudamin/warfarin who will take exception to this kind of story.

It's not entirely representative of their life, so fair enough.

But I do sometimes feel reading this site that an impression of "no danger at all" might be gained.

Clearly there is risk of bleeding more in certain situations, and while many of the horror stories aren't real, there must be some genuine risks. Do users carry around some sort of "instant clot" spray to stop bleeding? Or special dressings?

What, honestly, are the risks? Is it the opinion of readers that this man's risk was only slightly aggravated? What sort of bleeding can be staunched?

Yes there is an increased risk that if a major artery or vessel is injured, bleeding is not going to be easy to stop. On the other hand, so many people try to make it sound that if you get the simplest cut your going to bleed to death which is simply not true at all. I'm finding that even with more serious cuts, direct pressure and elevation of the affected area for a slightly longer period of time, result in the same blood stopping ability as of that of an fully coagulated individual.

Common Sense for the most part. Protect your noggin, be aware of limb slashing devices etc. These things are dangerous for anyone, not just those on Coumadin. It's safe to say that if you carry a set amount of certainty to a particular activity such as sword fighting or rough sports such as football and such, that your going to get hurt. These are probably not in your best interest to participate in if your on Coumadin, but again, it's the individuals choice. Many simply tighten up security and go forth anyhow.

 

[RCB]

Warfarin, Oh My God!!!!

Warfarin, Oh My God!!!!

You know there are billions of people on this earth and every year some of those unlucky souls are on the losing end of a battle with an animal with
superior jaw strength. Sometimes it is a young strong person with a club who knows how to use it- then the outcome is different, whether it be bear or mountain lion. Sometimes it is an old and trusting man who misjudged his pet. Let us wait for the medical examiner
to render the decision as to the cause of death. The man could have had a heart attack when playing with the dog and it got out of hand- who knows- certainly not the officer on the scene.

It is a fact that people die all the time from animal attack and sooner or later it was bound to happen to some on warfarin. Of course, the news media will not report it as
just another animal attack by an animal with extremely powerful jaws or the fact that he was an old man in frail health- no it has to be that evil chemical?WARFARIN?.WARFARIN?.WARFARIN!

I get scared just typing it??.I?m sorry??I am just too horrified to go on????.

 

[catwoman]

I went to the Washington Post's website and read the article.
The dogs belonged to the man's daughter or daughter-in-law (can't remember which). Two dogs were in the house; 3 were outside the house, chained. Dogs were reportedly pit bulls. One dog was killed that day; the others were due to be euthanized. Post said an autopsy would be done on the man, SOP in these cases. (My question: Perhaps the man actually died of a heart attack brought on by the incident?)

Article also said dogs were adults, not neutered or spayed, which, if so, would account for additional agressive behavior. Dogs were not vaccinated (perhaps that statement is based on dogs possibly not wearing rabies tags). Owner had been cited previously for not keeping dogs confined. Neighbor who moved away in the last 2-3 months said several of the dogs had rushed at his wife & small daughter and (I think) hit the car they were getting into to get away from the dogs.


I doubt that Coumadin/warfarin was responsible for the man's death. We see accounts all the time of people being savagely attacked by dogs, and the people die or come close to it. And none of those reports have mentioned the victim(s) being on warfarin.

Ah, sensationalism.

 

[Georgia]

Having thought about this for a day, it seems to me that if a major artery was bitten anyone would bleed to death without some intervention - at least pressure. Anticoagulated blood doesn't run faster, it just doesn't stop. So if an artery was torn, bleeding doesn't stop until there's no more blood, right? So anticoagulation is moot in this case.

 

[Marty]

Having thought about this for a day, it seems to me that if a major artery was bitten anyone would bleed to death without some intervention - at least pressure. Anticoagulated blood doesn't run faster, it just doesn't stop. So if an artery was torn, bleeding doesn't stop until there's no more blood, right? So anticoagulation is moot in this case.

I agree but I still cannot take exception to the Sheriff's observation " the deceased was on Coumadin and this could have made the bleeding worse".

 

[bvdr]

I agree but I still cannot take exception to the Sheriff's observation " the deceased was on Coumadin and this could have made the bleeding worse".

Marty, I too think the Sheriff's observation was fair. He isn't saying the man bled out because of the coumadin or that it caused his death but that it "could have made the bleeding worse" which it almost certainly did. Since the man is dead then the whole chain of events can only be surmised. It doesn't sound like a home I would have wanted to have on my street for sure.



I

 

[Guest]

They could have said that the Coumadin made the man bleed out faster and saved him from dying in agony as the dogs ripped him to pieces. It all depends on the spin -- doesn't it.

Now we know why Marsha likes cats. At least small cats.

 

[catwoman]

Now we know why Marsha likes cats. At least small cats.

Small cats??
Try handling a 10-month-old Maine Coon Cat that already weighs 14-15 pounds. And is as big as some smaller dogs. I showed one such cat in late 2005 and through February 2006. I'm sure this one will be 22-25 pounds by 2-3 years of age. And no fat on his body.

Cats have smaller, sharper teeth than dogs. My experience has been that animals having shorter muzzles, such as Persians, Burmese, Chartreaux and American Shorthairs, among cats, and I'm sure Boston terriers, Pekes, boxers and bulldogs, have greater pressure and strength in those short jaws than animals with longer muzzles.
Anyone who lives with an animal with short muzzles should use a long pill gun when giving pills. It's hard to pry open those short jaws to pop in a pill and you're apt to get a finger bitten. Even giving a liquid Rx can be difficult.

People living with an animal should know what to do in case of a bite or scratch. Even the most docile animal can be come frightened by a new pet, a sudden noise, a stray animal jumping onto an outside window ledge, etc., and take it out on you. Been there, done that.
It's even more critical for those of us with valve problems and especially those on warfarin to know how to stop bleeding by applying pressure, how to clean a wound thoroughly, when medical treatment may be needed, appropriate dressings/topical lotions for such, what antibiotics and how much to take after an incident, signs of infection, etc.
Keep your animals current on rabies vaccination. In some areas, if you show up at an ER with an animal bite, animal control could impound the animal or you may need to board the animal at a vet clinic. If the animal's not current, uh-oh.

If you do go to an ER, make sure they apply pressure on a wound to stop the bleeding -- not just ice and a bandage. Again, been there, done that.