Does physical training makes AI, BAV, LV hypertrophy, and/or aortic aneurysms worse?

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cewilk

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Messages
86
Location
Kansas City, MO
Anyone have any medical journals, publications, and/or resources available that may contribute to evidence that intense physical training (high intensity interval training, long runs, weight bearing exercise, lifting) contributes to the more rapid onset of adverse symptoms regarding BAV, severe AI, LV hypertrophy, and ascending aortic aneurysms?
I am curious since before I was diagnosed with BAV in 2011, I was very asymptomatic and exercised at a high level. Within 8 months of being initially diagnosed, I began having noticeable exercise intolerance and told it was time for surgery. However, I still attempted to exercise at a very high level (weight training, 3-6 mile runs, calisthenics, 6-10 mile hikes carrying 50-90 lbs of equipment).
I feel is it odd that my need for surgery progressed as rapidly as it did when before I was diagnosed I did not have symptoms (maybe because I didn't know I had BAV). Any help is greatly appreciated!
 
It is very common to have no symptoms that are recognizable before surgery. I did not exercise before surgery and thought I had no symptoms. I had one bout of dizziness after I was told that I needed surgery. However, 2 months after surgery I had noticably more wind walking the dog around my hilly neighborhood than before surgery. The change due to the degrading valve was not noticable to me since it was gradual.

BAV problems can progress with little or no change and then they progress quicker and quicker. That's why you get an echo every year, then every 6 months and then it's time for surgery. This is common.

If it's time for surgery, ask your cardio what exercise they suggest. My cardio told me that the risk, once it is time for surgery, is called: "the syndrome known as sudden death." There is a BAV foundation named after someone who was not diagnosed with BAV disease, but dropped dead due to his BAV blowing out during a run.
 
I'm not a doctor but in my opinion heavy weight lifting would seem likely to make an aneurysm worse. It seems to make sense if you look at it like its a stretched out hose and you increase the pressure which is what weight lifting would probably do.
 
Hi
cewilk;n855367 said:
Anyone have any medical journals, publications, and/or resources available that may contribute to evidence that intense physical training (high intensity interval training, long runs, weight bearing exercise, lifting) contributes to the more rapid onset of adverse symptoms regarding BAV,

not that I've read ... to me everything I've read in the last few years (lots) has focused on the elderly and the infirm. Some on healthy people, never seen a single thing looking into aneurysm and relationship to exersize.

as tom said, it often is not diagnosed and there is no feelings or symptoms for it (thus its called the silent killer, when it bursts suddenly
)
I feel is it odd that my need for surgery progressed as rapidly as it did when before I was diagnosed I did not have symptoms (maybe because I didn't know I had BAV). Any help is greatly appreciated!

actually that fits perfectly well with my knowledge and experience of everything mechanical or physical. The failure is progressive and non-linear. A graph like this is text book for any engineer looking at component failures:(metals, hoses, valves, transistors ...)

3067_03_13.jpg


moves slowly along trending innocuously towards failing then "pop". For instance in the Sugical Guidelines 2013
guidelinesAuthorList-747022.jpg


they say:

StructuralValveDegredation.jpg


note the begins to accelerate ....

The same observations are found for many natural valves once calcification / stenosis sets in. The same seems to be observed for Aneurysm.
 
pellicle;n855378 said:
Hi


not that I've read ... to me everything I've read in the last few years (lots) has focused on the elderly and the infirm. Some on healthy people, never seen a single thing looking into aneurysm and relationship to exersize.

as tom said, it often is not diagnosed and there is no feelings or symptoms for it (thus its called the silent killer, when it bursts suddenly
)


actually that fits perfectly well with my knowledge and experience of everything mechanical or physical. The failure is progressive and non-linear. A graph like this is text book for any engineer looking at component failures:(metals, hoses, valves, transistors ...)

3067_03_13.jpg


moves slowly along trending innocuously towards failing then "pop". For instance in the Sugical Guidelines 2013
guidelinesAuthorList-747022.jpg


they say:

StructuralValveDegredation.jpg


note the begins to accelerate ....

The same observations are found for many natural valves once calcification / stenosis sets in. The same seems to be observed for Aneurysm.

Hey my surgeon is on that long list from the special report you cite , I know that doesn't add much but ...
 
cldlhd;n855384 said:
Hey my surgeon is on that long list from the special report you cite , I know that doesn't add much but ...
But its always nice to know someone in the list ... gives you a feel for the names behind the opinions
 
Intense exercise, especially heavy weight lifting but even aerobic, can pose serious risks to those with aortic aneurysms. The more advanced the aneursym the higher the risk. But with an aneurysm you aren't likely to have much in the way of symptoms, until it ruptures or dissects.

I started a thread some time ago with references linked, here: http://www.valvereplacement.org/for...2576-exercise-and-stress-with-aortic-aneurysm
 
I didn't have aortic aneuysm, only bicuspid aortic valve. I knew I had BAV for many years before I was referred to surgery. I did heavy weight lifting (yes, I know I'm a woman but I did heavy weight lifting regardless, a high intensity Super Slow technique). When I was referred for surgery I was completley asymptomatic….not my imagination, I had no symptoms at all and felt the fittest of my life. At the echo I had after referral, but before surgery, the echo technician asked me if I did weight lifting, to which I said yes. I was very surprised. He could actually see from my heart muscle that I did weight lifting ! The muscle was strong and it showed. So who knows whether weight lifting and intense exercise is good or bad. Might be bad for aneurysm but good for the heart. I suspect it depends on each individual case.As I said, i only had BAV. The fact that my heart was very strong meant that it could cope better with the stenotic valve, it wasn't a strain on my heart.
 
Hi cewilk,

You can find an earlier response to this question on the thread AZ Don provided.

Thought I would add a few comments. I have an aortic aneurysm, and my aorta also dissected. It tore from my aortic valve all the way down the aorta, and branched from there down to my left knee cap area.
My odds of surviving the emergency surgery were not good, (3-6%), my wife was told to say her goodbyes to me as they rolled me into surgery. That was back in March of 2000. Prior to the event, I was a body builder, and pretty much worked out intensely 5 days a week for many years.

After my surgery, one set of doctors told me to not lift more than 50 lbs. Another doctor that I hold in high regard told me, "You know when you are lifting or exerting yourself too much, don't go to that point".
High blood pressure is not your friend if you are prone to either aneurysms or dissections.
The two exercises that place the most load on your system are squats and leg presses. In fact, I was doing heavy squats less than 12 hours from dissecting.
These are the worst exercises to engage in for someone like me.
I still work out and jog 2 miles 4 days a week. I call this my PT, I don't over due my weight lifting anymore, as I now consider it as more muscle maintenance these days, my days of building more muscle are over. When I was at my peak, I weighed 174 lbs. now I weigh 152 lbs.

Aneurysms and Dissections are known as the "silent killers". if you are prone to either of them, why tempt it? Be smart, and "exercise to live".
Live if more important than high impact exercises for the sake of short term fitness goals.
Life is a marathon, not a sprint. Use common sense in your routine, everyone knows their own health issues, and adjust your routine accordingly.

These are my thoughts on your question, from someone who has lived through it. Although I don't work out as intensely, I have a good life, and obviously still around to talk about it.
My activities are very active, as I always tell myself, when to stop pushing myself too much.

Rob
 
More information from a study of high intensity strength training workouts.
Since aneurysms and dissections are closely related, I thought I would post this article.

Full article dissemination -

Via Health Central


Intense Weight Lifting Linked to Fatal Heart Trouble

It can lead to a tear in the heart's major artery, doctors say.

By Kathleen Doheny,
HealthDay Reporter

December 2, 2003


High-intensity strength training may lead to a potentially deadly condition
called aortic dissection, in which the heart's major artery tears.

That's the conclusion of new research by a team of Yale University experts
that appears in the Dec. 3 issue of the Journal of the American Medical
Association.

"Dissection happens in a split second," says Dr. John Elefteriades, chief of
cardiothoracic surgery at Yale University and Yale-New Haven Hospital and
the lead author of the report, which is contained in a letter to the
journal.

In those who lift weights and already have an enlarged aorta, the elevated
blood pressure that occurs during weight training may lead to the
dissection, Elefteriades says.

Using a Yale database, Elefteriades and his colleagues identified five
people who suffered acute dissection of the aorta during high-intensity
weight training or other strenuous exercise.

At the moment the dissection occurred, two of the people were weight
training, one was trying to move a heavy granite structure, and two were
doing pushups, the researchers say.

All were found to have an enlarged aorta, but not at a level expected to
present a high risk of dissection, Elefteriades says.

Three patients who had surgical repair survived; the other two died before
surgery could be attempted.

The condition of aortic dissection is "uncommon but not rare," says
Elefteriades, adding that it is what killed actor John Ritter earlier this
year and has been declared the cause of death of many athletes who died
suddenly.

Aortic dissection strikes about two of every 10,000 people, according to the
National Institutes of Health.

While it can affect anyone, it's most often seen in men ages 40 to 70, the
NIH says.

"We're not saying stop weight training," says Elefteriades, a long-time
weight trainer himself.

"It's a wonderful activity and a very important activity."

It can help maintain
muscle mass as you age, for instance, and help maintain strength for
everyday chores such as carrying groceries.

But Elefteriades does recommend caution in certain people, including those
with known aortic aneurysms, a widening or ballooning of the vessel caused
by disease or a weakening of the vessel wall.

Also, those with a family history of aneurysm or dissection, underlying high
blood pressure, and those at or beyond middle age should be cautious, he
says, because the aorta stiffens with age.

Those with connective tissue disease, such as rheumatoid arthritis, are also
at higher risk, he says.

"I think there has to be this underlying enlargement [of the aorta] before
the dissection happens," Elefteriades says.

"But we wanted to sound this warning bell that strength training and weight
lifting can cause these dissections in people who already have a mild
enlargement of the aorta," he adds.

The problem, Elefteriades says, is that many people with an enlargement
don't know they have it.

An echocardiogram, an ultrasound evaluation of the heart, can determine
whether the aorta is enlarged, he says.

When dissection of the aorta occurs, "the aorta splits into two layers,"
Elefteriades says.

"It splits in such a way that it becomes a double-barreled tube instead of a
single-barreled one."

You can quickly lose blood internally and die.

Until more research is done, what should weight lifters who may be at risk
do?

Avoid weight training so strenuous that your blood pressure rises
excessively, Elefteriades says.

"We do know that levels of blood pressure that are high are dangerous," he
says.

Serious weight trainers, who often bench press 300 or 400 pounds, may get
blood pressures that are dangerously elevated, even up to 370 millimeters of
mercury systolic, he says.

Normal systolic pressure, measured as the heart beats, is below 120; normal
diastolic pressure, measured as the heart rests between beats, is below 80,
Elefteriades says.

While it's difficult to pinpoint how much weight is too much, Elefteriades
suggests that for upper body weight training, "above half your body weight
you are starting to get into the high pressure zone.

For the lower body, the legs are stronger, so you could probably lift more
than half your body weight [safely]."

Serious weight trainers should consider having an echocardiogram, he says.

The other take-home advice from the report is very obvious for weight
lifters or would-be weight lifters, says Dr. Craig Miller, the Doelger
Professor of Cardiovascular Surgery at Stanford University Medical School.

"If they have dilation or aneurysm of the thoracic aorta or a connective
tissue disorder or a family history of premature aortic catastrophic
complications, do not weight lift," Miller says.
 
I can only speak for myself but if I still had an aneurysm I wouldn't be doing heavy weight training. I no longer have aneurysm because it was replaced with a graft but I have a bicuspid aortic valve and there seems to be different opinions as to whether or not this only puts you at risk for an aneurysm from the aortic root to the hemi arch or if you're more likely to get aneurysms in other areas. My surgeon told me it's the former, which is what I wanted to hear but even so when I eventually get back into the gym I don't think I'll be doing weight lifting as heavy as I did it 15 or 20 years ago, for various reasons.
 
Hi

I had intended to add (but forgot)

pellicle;n855378 said:
not that I've read ... to me everything I've read in the last few years (lots) has focused on the elderly and the infirm. Some on healthy people, never seen a single thing looking into aneurysm and relationship to exersize.

so we are the researchers. I think one should apply common sense and prudence to it, and use regular hydraulics to build our understandings. It is after all a hydraulic system. So if there was significant chance (heightened by evidence) that extra pressure would cause problems ... one should consider that carefully. We do know that aneurysm is at least statisitcally related to BAV ... so since weight training is "above and beyond" the normal parameters of design for the system (recall that serious weight lifting is an elite sport) one should consider carefully does it matter if you died doing it. Unlike other sports weight lifting puts significantly greater pressures on the hydraulics of the cardio vascular system.

Runners sprain tendons and feel that pain as an indicator, we don't feel aneurysm to know we're pushing too hard. So you need to be the judge.
 
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