Covid Vaccines

[vitdoc]

Getting vaccinated is a no brainer. Yes the vaccines are not perfect no vaccine is. But
#1 extremely rare to get severe effects from COVID after vaccination. #2 reduce the population viral load substantially and reduce new potentially more virulent variants.
The first is a self preservation motivation which individuals may take or not. But the second is societal. Not considering this is selfish.

Even the risks described primarily for the viral vector vaccines are very rare. For the m RNA vaccines the risks so far described are minimal. So far primarily myocarditis which in most if not all has been rare and self limiting.

The stupidity echo chambers are responsible for killing many people. I wonder what would happen if COVID had a much higher death rate say like smallpox. In NYC in 1947 there was a smallpox case. 6 million were vaccinated in one month against smallpox. Maybe if there was an internet then that would not have happened.
The internet makes everyone an expert with or without critical thinking skills.

 

[Chuck C]

The internet makes everyone an expert with or without critical thinking skills.

Bingo! That is exactly what happens.

 

[Chuck C]

The numbers speak volumes:

" “breakthrough” infections in fully vaccinated people accounted for fewer than 1,200 of more than 107,000 COVID-19 hospitalizations. That’s about 1.1%. "

" And only about 150 of the more than 18,000 COVID-19 deaths in May were in fully vaccinated people"

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-941fcf43d9731c76c16e7354f5d5e187
Statistics that can't be ignored, yet, many sadly still will. It is very similar to someone who disregards the statistics for mortality once a person becomes symptomatic with severe aortic stenosis. The mortality graph becomes a cliff. Yet, we still see, on occasion, people who refuse to accept this statistic and refuse surgery.

 

[Lynn]

From the link: The subsequent evolution leads to higher levels of intrinsic virulence and hence to more severe disease in unvaccinated individuals.

What we don’t know from the link you posted to the Abstract ( not the full study, you would have to pay for that) is what was the population vaccination rate? how effective was the vaccine? What was the control group?

What we do know, not too much.

It seems unlikely that vaccines can be blamed for the Delta variant which is believed to have originated in a country that even now has less than 6% of their population vaccinated.

I’m not an epidemiologist or a doctor so all just sum it up this way:

What VITDOC said.

 

[rich01]

Getting vaccinated is a no brainer. Yes the vaccines are not perfect no vaccine is. But
#1 extremely rare to get severe effects from COVID after vaccination. #2 reduce the population viral load substantially and reduce new potentially more virulent variants.
The first is a self preservation motivation which individuals may take or not. But the second is societal. Not considering this is selfish.

Even the risks described primarily for the viral vector vaccines are very rare. For the m RNA vaccines the risks so far described are minimal. So far primarily myocarditis which in most if not all has been rare and self limiting.

The stupidity echo chambers are responsible for killing many people. I wonder what would happen if COVID had a much higher death rate say like smallpox. In NYC in 1947 there was a smallpox case. 6 million were vaccinated in one month against smallpox. Maybe if there was an internet then that would not have happened.
The internet makes everyone an expert with or without critical thinking skills.

Perfect is a scientific term that means a vaccine prevents all infection. The point is, the current vaccines do not prevent all infection. As they don't prevent all infection, they allow virus escape which can result in variants that are less responsive to the vaccines. A recent study in Israel, where almost the entire country has been vaccinated, shows that the vaccines only reduce infection by about 50%.

You are quoting Fauci now and my response to his foolishness is the smallpox vaccine uses a small portion of a similar but less deadly virus. In no way is the smallpox vaccine comparable to an mRNA vaccine.

Remember the panic the media was in over India? What happened? Cases dropped like a rock and it wasn't because they magically vaccinated millions of people.

If people choose to be vaccinated, great. If younger people, in good health, choose not to get vaccinated, great. My only problem is people who are highly vulnerable not getting vaccinated or taking prudent precautions.

My biggest problem with the vaccines is they are not stopping Covid-19 and likely never will. We are currently in a race between vaccinating the entire world and variants, and the variants are currently winning.

 

[rich01]

From the link: The subsequent evolution leads to higher levels of intrinsic virulence and hence to more severe disease in unvaccinated individuals.

What we don’t know from the link you posted to the Abstract ( not the full study, you would have to pay for that) is what was the population vaccination rate? how effective was the vaccine? What was the control group?

What we do know, not too much.

It seems unlikely that vaccines can be blamed for the Delta variant which is believed to have originated in a country that even now has less than 6% of their population vaccinated.

I’m not an epidemiologist or a doctor so all just sum it up this way:

What VITDOC said.

I linked it because it explained perfect and imperfect as regards a vaccine. It also points out, contrary to what others have posted, that an imperfect vaccine "leads to higher levels of intrinsic virulence", meaning variants. Yes, it is the unvaccinated that pay the price, but they might have been infected by someone who was vaccinated.

All I am trying to point out is the vaccines are not the solution they are made out to be. We know that vitamin d is extremely important. We know that taking antivirals early in the disease is important. We know there are off-label drugs that are effective treatments. The government, WHO, etc have failed to develop a multifaceted plan to defeat this disease. Vaccines alone won't do it. If they did, Israel wouldn't have increasing cases.

 

[Chuck C]

I linked it because it explained perfect and imperfect as regards a vaccine. It also points out, contrary to what others have posted, that an imperfect vaccine "leads to higher levels of intrinsic virulence", meaning variants. Yes, it is the unvaccinated that pay the price, but they might have been infected by someone who was vaccinated.

All I am trying to point out is the vaccines are not the solution they are made out to be. We know that vitamin d is extremely important. We know that taking antivirals early in the disease is important. We know there are off-label drugs that are effective treatments. The government, WHO, etc have failed to develop a multifaceted plan to defeat this disease. Vaccines alone won't do it. If they did, Israel wouldn't have increasing cases.

Vaccines don't cause an increase in variants. They lower the number of cases. The fewer cases, less opportunity for mutations allowing for variants.

“The more transmission, the more opportunity you have for variants to evolve,” says Steven Zeichner, MD, PhD, an infectious disease expert and pediatrics professor at the University of Virginia (UVA) School of Medicine in Charlottesville. “From a U.S. perspective, getting everyone around the world vaccinated is not an altruistic thing. It protects us here in the U.S. The side effect is that it helps everyone else in the world.”

https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/vaccines-and-variants-four-keys-ending-pandemic
Please read the link below. This traces the spreading of the mis-information that vaccines are causing the variants and debunks the claim:

"Dubious claims that vaccines are causing new variants of the novel coronavirus are spreading on social media.

"If vaccines were creating new dangerous variants, then Stoilov said we would see proportionately more new variants emerging over time among vaccinated populations than with unvaccinated parts of the world."

" “We see nothing of that. In fact, we see exactly the opposite,” Stoilov said. “In places with high vaccination rates, the case numbers and mortality are dropping; virus diversity is limited to few (one to three) variants; and, so far, no new variants are emerging among vaccinated populations.” "

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/no-vaccines-do-not-cause-new-sars-cov-2-variants

 

[rich01]

Vaccines don't cause an increase in variants. They lower the number of cases. The fewer cases, less opportunity for mutations allowing for variants.

“The more transmission, the more opportunity you have for variants to evolve,” says Steven Zeichner, MD, PhD, an infectious disease expert and pediatrics professor at the University of Virginia (UVA) School of Medicine in Charlottesville. “From a U.S. perspective, getting everyone around the world vaccinated is not an altruistic thing. It protects us here in the U.S. The side effect is that it helps everyone else in the world.”

https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/vaccines-and-variants-four-keys-ending-pandemic
Please read the link below. This traces the spreading of the mis-information that vaccines are causing the variants and debunks the claim:

"Dubious claims that vaccines are causing new variants of the novel coronavirus are spreading on social media.

"If vaccines were creating new dangerous variants, then Stoilov said we would see proportionately more new variants emerging over time among vaccinated populations than with unvaccinated parts of the world."

" “We see nothing of that. In fact, we see exactly the opposite,” Stoilov said. “In places with high vaccination rates, the case numbers and mortality are dropping; virus diversity is limited to few (one to three) variants; and, so far, no new variants are emerging among vaccinated populations.” "

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/no-vaccines-do-not-cause-new-sars-cov-2-variants

For every so-called expert you quote, I can quote a different one who says the opposite.

Is it not true that we are seeing variants for which the vaccines are not as effective as they were for the first 2 or 3 strains? Is it not true that there was a collapse in new cases in India right when the media and WHO were predicting a disaster?

The government is as guilty of misinformation as any other source. They have a vaccine agenda and nothing is going to get in their way, even something as simple as vitamin d. Remember, these are authorized only for emergency use. The emergency must continue. No treatment options will be approved because if they are there is no emergency.

 

[Chuck C]

They have a vaccine agenda and nothing is going to get in their way,

There is not much point in revisiting the statistics. You have chosen to believe your comment above. Facts and statistics will not get in your way. If you don’t believe the experts, what about the statistic that virtually every Covid death in the US that happened in the month of May was among the unvaccinated? Oh wait, I forgot, they’re lying to us about the numbers.

 

[dick0236]

The government is as guilty of misinformation as any other source. They have a vaccine agenda and nothing is going to get in their way, even something as simple as vitamin d. Remember, these are authorized only for emergency use. The emergency must continue. No treatment options will be approved because if they are there is no emergency.

You sound like my grandkids....even that Trump lackey doc was promoting "herd immunity". We can't get there without the majority getting immunized.

 

[Critter]

99% off people dying from COVID-19 are the unvaccinated. The efficacy is great in preventing death. But we have to salute the freedom of refusal of vaccine and the ability to infect the general public vaccd or not vaccd

 

[Critter]

That was said with sarcasm

 

[Chuck C]

The government is as guilty of misinformation as any other source. They have a vaccine agenda and nothing is going to get in their way,

Rich, I know you mean well, but you’re spreading demonstrably false information.When people do this it causes great harm and thousands of needless deaths.

 

[Chuck C]

I wonder what would happen if COVID had a much higher death rate say like smallpox.

Make no mistake about it, if the Black Plague were to break out tomorrow, we’d see millions of plague deniers and plague minimizers. And they’d all be echoing their expertise back and forth on social media.

 

[rich01]

99% off people dying from COVID-19 are the unvaccinated. The efficacy is great in preventing death. But we have to salute the freedom of refusal of vaccine and the ability to infect the general public vaccd or not vaccd

US Deaths from Covid-19 (Current). Where is this uptick in deaths?

 

[rich01]

Rich, I know you mean well, but you’re spreading demonstrably false information.When people do this it causes great harm and thousands of needless deaths.

How did you get to be an authority? Fauci has out and out lied to the American people on more than one occasion and has actually admitted to it. The doctors I listen to and believe are the ones down in the trenches treating Covid-19 patients and keeping them alive, not bureaucrats who haven't seen a patient in decades.

 

[Chuck C]

The doctors I listen to and believe are the ones down in the trenches treating Covid-19 patients and keeping them alive, n

And these doctors you listen to, ostensibly in the trenches, are encouraging people not to get vaccinated because the vaccine causes variants? There’s a name for that: We call them quacks.

 

[Lynn]

Rich, India’s reduction in cases seems to coincide with state lock downs (not national but state lock downs- most states it appears have locked down to varying degrees) that starting in mid April and May. States are just beginning to re-open now. These lock downs to curtail the mobility and gathering of people coupled with the effort to vaccinate are what Indian Doctors and scientists are crediting with the decline in cases.

Secondly, I wonder why US deaths might be declining? Maybe vaccines have something to do with it?

What’s they saying, “don’t let the prefect be the enemy of the good”

 

[Lynn]

It’s also worth noting that the small pox vaccine is not “perfect” according to the CDC it prevents 95% of cases. But small pox was eradicated by a global vaccination campaign.

 

[Chuck C]

US Deaths from Covid-19 (Current). Where is this uptick in deaths?

View attachment 887967

Rich, your graph data does nothing to refute Critter's statement. His statement is accurate.

Critter said: " 99% off people dying from COVID-19 are the unvaccinated. "

Here is the article which I posted several posts above which supports this claim:

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-941fcf43d9731c76c16e7354f5d5e187
You said: " US Deaths from Covid-19 (Current). Where is this uptick in deaths? "

But, your logic is flawed. He never claimed deaths are up. You somehow interpret the drop in Covid-19 deaths, as shown in your graph, as supporting your argument. It does not.

If 99% of those dying now are unvaccinated, it could be 99% of 100,000 or 99% of 5,000. No uptick in deaths is needed to support this statistic. These two statistics are not mutually exclusive.

But, ironically, the graph supports that vaccines work. We would expect the death count to be way down, as cases have fallen dramatically, correlating with the use of the vaccine.

Additionally we would expect deaths to be way down, not only because cases are way down, but also the most vulnerable, those over 65 years old, have had the highest level of vaccine compliance in the US. As of today, July 18, 89.1% of those over 65 have had at least one vaccination and 79.5% have had both vaccinations, so yes, expect the death numbers to be way down.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations