Covid Vaccines

[dornole]

Kim! So glad your vaccine went ok for ya!

 

[Chuck C]

Whatever happened to civility and the ability to share diverse opinions cordially?

Point well taken about being civil.

At the same time, this is a board that respects the scientific method and scientific literature, as life and death decisions are often influenced by such vital data. I have observed that this is a place where if someone comes along and posts non-science-based lies that they are challenged. Sometimes such challenges can be blunt, but this behavior ultimately needs to be confronted and I'm glad that this board is a place where it is confronted.

This thread was initiated by a poster who was getting a vaccine and was asking for feedback from those who had taken the vaccine. Then, a conspiracy theororist, who had nothing to add in terms of experience, pops in and, completely unsolicited, starts gratuitously filling posts with debunked conspiracy lies. These are not harmless statements. These falsehoods are causing millions to not get vaccinated and will lead to tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of unnecessary deaths. I would hope that this board would always remain a place where the scientific method is respected, and such dangerous falsehoods are confronted. These lies do kill.

 

[user 15848]

I'm with Sood, as are probably 40% of U.S. residents. It has nothing to do with a conspiracy. It is common sense. Everyone acknowledges, including the CDC, that these vaccines were only given emergency use authorization - meaning they are experimental, because all of the established testing protocols, including all the long-term studies, have not been completed. Given that the virus itself poses almost zero risk of serious symptoms or death to an unvaccinated person who has a healthy immune system, I see no reason to participate. I don't care about short term effects like sore arms and sore throats - I care about the long-term side effects which are admitted by medical professionals to be unknown. I also do not feel that I am being selfish because even again, the CDC admits that a fully vaccinated person is at virtually no risk of being infected by an unvaccinated person. If I am a risk to other unvaccinated and like minded people that is okay because we have all implicitly accepted that risk, which we consider to be very minor and less risky than taking the vaccine itself. The same could be said of the masks. Besides all of that, the U.S. was a freedom loving country until recently, and there is a pressure and a coercion coming down from the highest level of government that is scarily reminiscent of George Orwell's book, 1984.

Exactly, that is what happens since Baraka is back in power, old Joe is just a puppet and loves Maoist totalitariam regime not to mention how much Baraka loves the Castros....

 

[dick0236]

Exactly, that is what happens since Baraka is back in power, old Joe is just a puppet and loves Maoist totalitariam regime not to mention how much Baraka loves the Castros....

 

[pellicle]

Whatever happened to civility and the ability to share diverse opinions cordially?

personally I find two subjects highly divisive, one is politics. Both should be avoided.
Myself I don't regard myself as anonymous (which feeds into what you are saying), I take my reputation here as seriously as the personal one I have in the town I live in.

 

[QuincyRunner]

Point well taken about being civil.

At the same time, this is a board that respects the scientific method and scientific literature, as life and death decisions are often influenced by such vital data. I have observed that this is a place where if someone comes along and posts non-science-based lies that they are challenged. Sometimes such challenges can be blunt, but this behavior ultimately needs to be confronted and I'm glad that this board is a place where it is confronted.

This thread was initiated by a poster who was getting a vaccine and was asking for feedback from those who had taken the vaccine. Then, a conspiracy theororist, who had nothing to add in terms of experience, pops in and, completely unsolicited, starts gratuitously filling posts with debunked conspiracy lies. These are not harmless statements. These falsehoods are causing millions to not get vaccinated and will lead to tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of unnecessary deaths. I would hope that this board would always remain a place where the scientific method is respected, and such dangerous falsehoods are confronted. These lies do kill.

I am totally with you on the need for civility and science, Chuck. The problem is that those of us who choose not to get the vaccine are being ridiculed and criticized. It is not the other way around. I respect your decision to get the vaccine and I don’t judge you for it. And on top of that, this vaccine is not settled science, it is still experimental. And the virus itself is unsettled science, there is still too much about it that is unknown. I don’t think it is right for you to hold up science as your rationale for criticizing people that take an opposite position on this subject. And stop calling us conspiracy theorists just because we don’t have closed minds.

 

[Chuck C]

I don’t think it is right for you to hold up science as your rationale for criticizing people that take an opposite position on this subject.

When a poster makes 13+ false statements that have been debunked by science, I think it is perfectly reasonable to call them out as being anti-science and, actually, important to do so.

The problem is that those of us who choose not to get the vaccine are being ridiculed and criticized.

I don't see this as the issue at all. I have not ridiculed anyone for choosing not to take the vaccine and don't see others doing so. A couple of posters here have gone well beyond not choosing to taking the vaccine and have gone on to post debunked nonsense, thumbing their nose at science.

Case in point:
Sood said:
" Why have the total deaths not gone up in countries in 2020? "

Yet, mortality did increase in 2020.
https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid
https://www.who.int/data/stories/the-true-death-toll-of-covid-19-estimating-global-excess-mortality
https://www.cbs19.tv/article/news/h...2018/501-355b857c-e7e9-40e4-b31d-11500cbcb103
But, those who love their conspiracies never let science and statistics get in the way of their beliefs. They always, always have a way of explaining them away. Part of the great conspiracy, that all of the scientists, doctors, and statisticians are all apparently a part of.

 

[Chuck C]

And stop calling us conspiracy theorists just because we don’t have closed minds.

I find it really ironic that conspiracy theorists, covid minimizers and covid deniers consider themselves as open minded and that those who can understand science and statistics as close minded.

Have you lost any friends or family due to Covid? I have. I have lost both friends and family.

My community has a large population of Covid deniers, Covid minimizers, anti-vaxxers and conspiracy theorists. My friend and personal physician was on the front lines of the pandemic and treated many of these people in our community who contracted Covid because they refused to social distance, wear masks or believe that it was anything more serious than a cold. He refused to turn away any patients from his urgent care and ultimately contracted Covid-19 from the front lines and died at age 61.

Dr. Humberto Aragon- may you rest in peace my friend. Dr. Aragon was the physician who detected my heart murmur and referred me to cardiology, which led to the discovery of my BAV and aortic stenosis. He likely saved my life.

https://www.echovita.com/us/obituaries/ca/wildomar/humberto-aragon-11293021

 

[Superbob]

My wife and I, both well along in our senior years, got our two Pzifer shots (the second one in late February) and neither of us has had any bad side-effects. While getting the vaccine is a choice for the individual, it would help us all if enough of the population would get fully vaccinated to give us herd immunity against this nasty virus.

 

[vitdoc]

When we are talking about potentially life and death issues and we hear nonsense that contributes to these issues that is being rehashed by individuals that have limited understanding and poor critical thinking skills which ultimately leads to more sickness and death it is difficult not to come down too hard.
The sad part however is that none of this discussion will in any way change their opinions or behaviors.
So this disease will go on longer than need be and more people will be affected.
If over 500,000 deaths in the US from COVID is not enough to have people take pause about this, what will? Oh I forgot most of those died from something else.

 

[pellicle]

Hi

...The problem is that those of us who choose not to get the vaccine are being ridiculed and criticized.

by who and where? I have not seen that here ... also can you please remind me what was your fair and reasonable justification for not having the vaccine. I myself am not vaccinated, but that's largely due to:

• availability
• where I live there are no cases (none)
• Australia has about the lowest incidence of the disease due to our quarantine system
• outbreaks are quickly contained and contract tracing systems are alreay and remain in place

And on top of that, this vaccine is not settled science, it is still experimental.

I disagree ... the vaccine is well published and if you don't read fluff its well understood

And the virus itself is unsettled science, there is still too much about it that is unknown.

that there is much that is unknown neatly attempts to deny that much is known, such as its expected mortality, its known transmission methods and what happens to which groups of the community.

What would questions would you like answered? I'll do my best.

I don’t think it is right for you to hold up science as your rationale for criticizing people that take an opposite position on this subject.

Science answers questions, it does not have all the answers. Having no knowledge on a topic having no education in the area and then claiming your ignorance is equal to my degrees of knowledge is a classic argument style to elevate ignorance and fallacious points to a position of equality.

Wisdom is to admit "I don't know anything about this and thus can't really comment, but I'm afraid of or concerned about ______________". Denial is the problem here.

And stop calling us conspiracy theorists just because we have closed minds.

I fixed your apparent typo as the use of "us" suggests you are a conspiracy theorist.

 

[pellicle]

I have no "narrative" other than seeking the truth

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3789264
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.01.21252652v1
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/docume...ia-art53-visual-risk-contextualisation_en.pdf
https://www.who.int/news-room/featu...zeneca-covid-19-vaccine-what-you-need-to-know
Above the WHO claims 63% effectiveness, so while its not 100% (what is?) it is quite sufficient to bring the R value down significantly; sufficient for it to go from a major issue to an insignificant one.

position statement
When I need / am allowed to undertake international travel (I'm keen to go back to Finland) I will be seeking vaccination.

Lastly this chart shows how effectively that the USA has been reducing new cases since January 2021 ... I've popped in Australia for a laugh.

Lastly my view is this: if people (or people within organisations) conspire to hide something this is very difficult. If a theory is put forward that depends on such a conspiracy existing then to me that is a "conspiracy theory".

 

[QuincyRunner]

I am very sorry that this topic became so contentious, mainly because this forum is not the place for it. I only entered the discussion to defend a fellow member who was being lambasted for having the apparent audacity to admit that he was not going to get the vaccine for COVID-19, both because he was suspicious of the safety and efficacy of it and because his doctor suggested that he was at minuscule risk of catching the virus. Then, as a result of his responses to the criticism, which were judged by many here to be inadequate and spurious, he received further condemnation which has now been redirected to me for not going along with the groupthink that I am rather surprised to see on this site. Despite being a minority on this forum, there are many people, including doctors and nurses whom I personally know who share my concerns about the vaccine and who wisely guard their suspicions. I have said all I am going to say on this subject and I will not be drawn into a never ending defense of my views with people who cannot abide a diversity of opinion and who will accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist, a trump nut, or a shill for Fox News. I have not shared my political views and I prefer not to hear yours. I just hope that the next time I have a comment about endocarditis or my mechanical heart valve that we can leave these differences behind.

 

[Chuck C]

QuincyRunner, I appreciate your sentiment. But, I do believe that your narrative of events represents some gaslighting of the actual events that unfolded.

Let’s go back to the original post that started this thread- a question, seeking feedback from those with experience who have taken the vaccine:

Kimdougc started the thread by asking the question:

“I am supposed to get my "shot" on Thursday. Have any other members got the covid vaccine and how did it go? Just wondering with a mechanical heart valve what others that have received the vaccine how it went?”

A couple of anti-vaxxers then used this question as an open invitation to enter the thread and spread false information about Covid-19 and the vaccines. Their false information, having been roundly debunked by the science, was rightfully challenged by other members here.

I will agree with you that it is not appropriate to accuse people of being in a certain political party, supporting a particular politician or listening to a particular news station. I have seen these accusations coming from both sides of the vaccine debate and you will note that I have not done this. 1) I have no evidence of which leader you support or news channel you watch 2) Even if I did have such knowledge, I don’t find it helpful to go there.

We are much better off if we keep our criticisms to the statements made on the thread, without speculating on other political matters about the person making such statements. I have tried to limit my challenges to the information presented on these threads.

To be clear, to make such false statements is not innocent behavior that should be respected and left alone. It is not just a matter of one person making a personal choice of whether or not to take the vaccine, when the line is crossed into posting anti-science conspiracy falsehoods on these boards. People look to these boards to influence life and death decisions and if such nonsense were allowed to stand unchallenged, it could do harm.

There are plenty of spaces out there on the internet where such anti-science conspiracy views can be shared unchallenged and where it would be welcome. But, this should never be one of those places.

“I just hope that the next time I have a comment about endocarditis or my mechanical heart valve that we can leave these differences behind.”

Without any hesitation, you have my unconditional commitment to not hold your views on vaccines against you in any discussion on heart valve issues, should you comment on future threads. And, if someone responds to one of your comments listing multiple false statements, whether it be about endocarditis, mechanical valves or any other heart valve topic, I believe you will find that the members here who are able to recognize those statements as false will challenge them vigorously, just as was observed with the false statements made about vaccines and Covid-19 on this thread.

 

[dick0236]

Well said Chuck. I saw posts, similar to these, splinter the original VR.com a few years back. Some well-experienced members split off and formed a separate group. This group may be teetering on the same cliff now. I alerted the Admin to take a look at the developing tone of this thread.......but no response so far.

 

[cldlhd]

No vaccine for me. In my 40's and almost a decade removed from OHS with a mechanical valve and aortic graft.

The statistics and data point to my risk being minuscule and I did verify with my cardiologist I am not in any increased risk from Covid because of my medical history.

The risks of me dying from OHS were a lot higher than the statistical risks for me dying of covid and no one on this planet can guarantee you the long term impacts of these gene therapy shots everyone is taking.

Your risk of dying from covid is a lot higher than your risk of dying from the vaccine. Explain to me what you mean by "gene therapy"

 

[cldlhd]

There are at least two reasons to be vaccinated for COVID. First to protect yourself and the other is to reach herd immunity and have the virus die out.
So those who don’t get vaccinated because of some non viable conspiracy theory about the vaccines are basically being rather selfish. Also 40 year olds have died from it.

Exactly, they are freeloading. They don't want to take a chance on the vaccine, not that it really is much of a chance, but they're banking on enough other people will to reach her immunity or at least close enough to it that they don't have to worry about infection.

 

[cldlhd]

I'm with Sood, as are probably 40% of U.S. residents. It has nothing to do with a conspiracy. It is common sense. Everyone acknowledges, including the CDC, that these vaccines were only given emergency use authorization - meaning they are experimental, because all of the established testing protocols, including all the long-term studies, have not been completed. Given that the virus itself poses almost zero risk of serious symptoms or death to an unvaccinated person who has a healthy immune system, I see no reason to participate. I don't care about short term effects like sore arms and sore throats - I care about the long-term side effects which are admitted by medical professionals to be unknown. I also do not feel that I am being selfish because even again, the CDC admits that a fully vaccinated person is at virtually no risk of being infected by an unvaccinated person. If I am a risk to other unvaccinated and like minded people that is okay because we have all implicitly accepted that risk, which we consider to be very minor and less risky than taking the vaccine itself. The same could be said of the masks. Besides all of that, the U.S. was a freedom loving country until recently, and there is a pressure and a coercion coming down from the highest level of government that is scarily reminiscent of George Orwell's book, 1984.

Oh please with the paranoia. Like the government is secretly wanting to make people wear masks and encourage them to get a vaccine. Why?. What do they gain out of it? The government has forced people to get vaccines before they're not doing that now? My kid had to take vaccines before he could go into school as a young child. It's simply public health policy. You say they haven't had long enough term studies on the vaccines while this science for the vaccines has been studied for a long time. Obviously if you're in the middle of a pandemic you can't have this specific vaccine with long-term 20 years worth of data. But have you checked the long-term data on Covid19? You say the risk is almost zero which is not exactly true but do you know if there is long-term damage from the virus?

 

[Debster]

My mom who is 80 with a tissue valve got the Johnson and Johnson shot in March..no issues or side effects whatsoever,

 

[cldlhd]

I'm with Sood, as are probably 40% of U.S. residents. It has nothing to do with a conspiracy. It is common sense. Everyone acknowledges, including the CDC, that these vaccines were only given emergency use authorization - meaning they are experimental, because all of the established testing protocols, including all the long-term studies, have not been completed. Given that the virus itself poses almost zero risk of serious symptoms or death to an unvaccinated person who has a healthy immune system, I see no reason to participate. I don't care about short term effects like sore arms and sore throats - I care about the long-term side effects which are admitted by medical professionals to be unknown. I also do not feel that I am being selfish because even again, the CDC admits that a fully vaccinated person is at virtually no risk of being infected by an unvaccinated person. If I am a risk to other unvaccinated and like minded people that is okay because we have all implicitly accepted that risk, which we consider to be very minor and less risky than taking the vaccine itself. The same could be said of the masks. Besides all of that, the U.S. was a freedom loving country until recently, and there is a pressure and a coercion coming down from the highest level of government that is scarily reminiscent of George Orwell's book, 1984.

I do agree with you on one aspect, I kind of don't really care if people don't get vaccinated who don't want it as long as they're only risking themselves. If they get sick and die it's a shame but it was their choice. The only problem I have with it is it will keep levels of infection higher which will put off how quickly things get totally back to normal. As for the conspiracy theory stuff that's just nonsense, throughout this pandemic most states in the US would open things up partially or ease back restrictions if they had one week of lower cases and then immediately we would snap back to higher ones. Now as a number of people vaccinated is way up They're loosening things up bigly.....