Coumadin, Vitamin K, puffy dark circles under eyes

[almost_hectic]

Is there a direct relationship among blood thinners, vitamin k and puffy dark under eye areas? Ive been combatting my tired look recently and while googling the topic found someone touting the benefits of getting plenty of vitamin k to combat the dark circles under eye. I dont get as much VK as I might were i not on coumadin, but I also dont see how it would help. But blood thinners however I might see how those could add to my tired eyes... As there anything to this? I think the number one remedy is lots of healthy sleep. But i rarely get a full nights sleep, especially since surgery. Can get comfortable or find a position where I dont wake up cramped in pain, even two years after surgery.

 

[Agian]

You're probably tired and sleep deprived.

Btw you can take k2 supplements. I take two every day. Nooo problem.

 

[Nocturne]

You're probably tired and sleep deprived.

Btw you can take k2 supplements. I take two every day. Nooo problem.

Agian, where is this verified? I've seen some confusion on whether or not K2 supplements could be taken or were effective while on Coumadin, but it may well be that it was just from people who were -- confused.

 

[Nocturne]

You're probably tired and sleep deprived.

Btw you can take k2 supplements. I take two every day. Nooo problem.

Agian, where is this verified? I've seen some confusion on whether or not K2 supplements could be taken or were effective while on Coumadin, but it may well be that it was just from people who were -- confused.

 

[Agian]

I said I take k2 supplements and there is no problem. If it affected inr I didn't notice and if it did, I'd just adjust the warfarin dose. Simples.

 

[pellicle]

With all due respect and admiration for your efforts I'm getting tired of this UNAPPROVED stuff Hank its been going on for years now..

So, retrying posting to answer this with references from HERE!!

Noct

I've seen some confusion on whether or not K2 supplements could be taken or were effective while on Coumadin, but it may well be that it was just from people who were -- confused.

There are many posts here which discuss our experiences with Vitamin K, many are well referenced but the key point is that everyone on it makes the same observations.

For instance:
http://www.valvereplacement.org/foru...505#post854505

My experience has been that the K2 appears to have helped reduce the variations in my INR.
While my average INR has always been kept very close to its target 3.0 (middle of my range), the K2 seems to have cut in half the standard deviations of the variations I experienced.
In my case, I did not experience any significant lowering of my INR from the low-dose K2 supplement.
But, I should point out that I take a fairly large dose of warfarin (12.5/day) to maintain my range of 2.5-3.5 INR.

http://www.valvereplacement.org/foru...709#post708709

Keeping Vitamin K intake to a MINIMUM is an OUT OF DATE Philosophy that has been PROVEN to lead to unstable INR.

Studies have Proven that a "Consistent" level of Vitamin K intake leads to a more stable INR.

'AL Capshaw'

same thread, further down:

Cris N writes:
http://www.valvereplacement.org/foru...746#post708746

This is one of my favorite subjects. I take a multivitamin with 25 mcg Vit K (1-not 2) AND a supplement of 100 mcg Vitamin K. I take them every day, without fail. This has helped me maintain a steady amount of Vit K and my warfarin dosage is adjusted to take this into account. The recommended minimum daily amount of Vit K is 80-90 mcg. My INR is much more stable doing this. I don't consume a consistent amount of Vit K through food so this helps me level off.

Then The Gym Guy
http://www.valvereplacement.org/foru...lation-control

I was looking for this article and found it. There are more out there: http://www.clinicalcorrelations.org/?p=4615

Just saying that what you guys preach is the very right thing to do. Doze your diet and having the Vit. K in it will actually make INR more stable even with Vit. K intake fluctuations.


I was looking for this article and found it. There are more out there: http://www.clinicalcorrelations.org/?p=4615

Just saying that what you guys preach is the very right thing to do. Doze your diet and having the Vit. K in it will actually make INR more stable even with Vit. K intake fluctuations.

go to that link and read his post as it has many references which I can't seem to repost here without that bloody spam filter

 

[lance]

Eat healthy, dose the diet including Vit K because it's required for healthy bones and probably other reasons too.
E.g. Should the INR test be 4.0 instead of 3.5 how much Vit. K containing food would it take to correct the test result. Probably more than any of us could eat in a day.

 

[tom in MO]

Is there a direct relationship among blood thinners, vitamin k and puffy dark under eye areas? Not that I've read in any literature or been told by medical people. I asked my dermatologist about warfarin and skin problems, and was told there are no known problems with warfarin and any skin condition. The only effect warfarin would have is on bleeding after removal of a mole, etc.

As there anything to this? For me my eyes get puffy but not dark when my allergies act up. This can happen in all seasons depending upon what you are allergic to. I think dark eyes may be genetic since from what I've seen they run in families.

But i rarely get a full nights sleep, especially since surgery. Can get comfortable or find a position where I dont wake up cramped in pain, even two years after surgery. This does not sound right to me. Most people don't have any problem sleeping after a few months. If you wake up cramped with pain, you may have trouble with arthritis. Try two acetaminophen before bed. There is a lot of sleep disorders, for example sleep apnea. I have it and once I got on a CPAP machine (my cardio nurse in rehab and a forum member pushed me) I've slept a lot better and feel a lot more rested. My sleep apnea had nothing to do with my heart problem or surgery. I'd first talk to your general practioner. They may send you to a sleep doctor.

 

[almost_hectic]

But i rarely get a full nights sleep, especially since surgery. Can get comfortable or find a position where I dont wake up cramped in pain, even two years after surgery. This does not sound right to me. Most people don't have any problem sleeping after a few months. If you wake up cramped with pain, you may have trouble with arthritis. Try two acetaminophen before bed. There is a lot of sleep disorders, for example sleep apnea. I have it and once I got on a CPAP machine (my cardio nurse in rehab and a forum member pushed me) I've slept a lot better and feel a lot more rested. My sleep apnea had nothing to do with my heart problem or surgery. I'd first talk to your general practioner. They may send you to a sleep doctor.

Thanks Ill look into that. I definitely have some arthritis. Was diagnosed with Osteoarthritis some years ago even though I was told i was really young to have it. Used to just be mostly my neck but having my chest opened i think has help it go into my upper shoulders. My bones creak and crack all the time. Its gonna suck when i get really old! I used to take ibuprofen quite a bit, but have told I should no longer do that while on Coumadin. So I basically just deal with the discomfort and occasional pain. Tylenol doesn't seem to really do much of anything for me, never has.

 

[pellicle]

...I used to take ibuprofen quite a bit, but have told I should no longer do that while on Coumadin. So I basically just deal with the discomfort and occasional pain.

sad that medical professionals still take this outdated line. If you take it occasionally (and by this I mean not for days at a time) then just take it. If you wish, perform an experiment (more than once) to see what repeatable influence it has on your INR.

I'm willing to bet not much.

Myself when I had a back pain problem I took 1000mg of paracetamol twice a day for about a week and observed that it was raising my INR (to something like 3.4). I decided that wasn't a problem and just let it happen. If you are not prone to bleeds then INR has to be elevated above 4 for an extended duration to really cause risk.

IF you are going to be on ibuprofen "regularly" then simply factor that into your dose regime guided by INR sampling.

 

[tom in MO]

sad that medical professionals still take this outdated line. If you take it occasionally (and by this I mean not for days at a time) then just take it. If you wish, perform an experiment (more than once) to see what repeatable influence it has on your INR.

I'm willing to bet not much.

Myself when I had a back pain problem I took 1000mg of paracetamol twice a day for about a week and observed that it was raising my INR (to something like 3.4). I decided that wasn't a problem and just let it happen. If you are not prone to bleeds then INR has to be elevated above 4 for an extended duration to really cause risk.

IF you are going to be on ibuprofen "regularly" then simply factor that into your dose regime guided by INR sampling.

Per my cardio and GPibuprofen does not affect your INR.

The problem is that ibuprofen can cause stomach bleeding which is very hard to handle if you are on warfarin and thus can become quite serious. More than a few "warfarin" issues are related to people with bleeding due to other problems. One of the main problems being use of NSIDS that can cause stomach bleeding with continued use.

My cardio says I can take ibuprofen with restrictions. I should take the least amount needed to get the desired effect. I can take no more than the over-the-counter dosage. I can take it for no more than 2 months. Using this regimen, I have successfully treated "attacks" of arthritis in my neck, knee and lower back for the last 5 years.

Drug interactions can be complicated. My cardio's office wants me to tell them any time I take a new medication.

 

[pellicle]

Hi

Per my cardio and GPibuprofen does not affect your INR.

thanks, thats great to get external corroboration and verification of my views. It is always good to do.

So as I posted it almost_hectic should feel comfortable that the advice given is overly cautious and won't make any significant effect on her INR.

Her practitioner however failed to mention the significance of GI bleeds which you raise:

The problem is that ibuprofen can cause stomach bleeding ... More than a few "warfarin" issues are related to people with bleeding due to other problems. One of the main problems being use of NSIDS that can cause stomach bleeding with continued use.

well as the poster is saying she wants to make "occasional use" of it for a should er issue, then that shouldn't be a risk significant ... Being an Over The Counter drug one would think that ibuprofen is low risk.

This study suggests that to be the case:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22017233

key points from that study are:

"Although the literature on gastrointestinal (GI) safety of NSAID therapy is extensive, the risk profiles of OTC and prescription dosing are seldom separated, and few studies provide risks specific to OTC ibuprofen."
OBJECTIVE:To conduct a literature review to evaluate the risk of GI bleeding events related to OTC ibuprofen use.

RESULTS:


Twenty studies (nine observational, ten clinical trials, one meta-analysis) reporting incidence rates and proportions of a GI bleeding-related event associated with OTC or OTC-specific doses of ibuprofen were included. The frequency of a GI-related hospitalization was <0.2% for patients on OTC-comparable doses. Incidence rates among those using OTC-comparable doses ranged from 0 to 3.19 per 1000 patient-years. The incidence of a GI bleeding-related event increased with age and the use of concomitant medications, and there was a general, though not always statistically significant, ibuprofen dose-response relationship. The relative risk of any GI bleeding-related event ranged from 1.1 to 2.4 for users of OTC-specific doses of ibuprofen compared to non-users.

so not much risk really ... especially if: its used occasionally rather than chronically

Thanks for your clafirications, I'm sure it will assist almost_hectic to make good choices in pain management