Can valve diagnosis improve over 7 yrs without surgery?

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Ann L

Hi? this is my first post on this wonderful forum. Having resently discovered the site and after spending hours & hours pouring through the discussions, please let me say before I ask my questions that I think this is the most selfless, respectful, helpful group of folks I?ve ever had the privledge of reading in the cyber world. Here's my primary concern. I am curious if anybody has experienced stress test results that varied so much from year to year?.with the same cardiologist? where it appears their valve problems were improving?

My diagnosis background: In 1999 I was diagnosed with moderate aortic regurg, moderate mitral regurg, and mild ticuspid regurg calling it myxomatous valvular disease. I was 43 years old. My regular doc and the cardio doc decided against a beta blocker due to my asthma. I overheard the technician calling several of her associates in to listen to my stress echo tests and them saying that ???? was bouncing off of the back wall. I assumed that meant the regurgitation rate (?) At the time, my symptoms were exertional palpitations, lightheadedness, & some chest discomfort. (For right or wrong, I wrote it off to stress.)

My next cardio checkup wasn?t until 2004 (busy taking care of my ill father). These tests showed the same moderate aortic regurg but no diastolic murmur or systolic clicks. Symptoms: edema in feet/legs, a little short of breath with chest discomfort. Was prescribed furosemide and potassium supplement. Aside from mild symptoms, I was doing pretty well since the cardiologist said that they are not sure why some patients are substantially worse after 5 years and in my case, I hadn?t worsened at all. I didn?t need to return for a year. At this time I got these statistics. From what I've read here, they look kindda ok... maybe not warranting a "moderate" diagnosis???

Left ventricle: end-diastolic dim.= 4.6cm, end-systolic dimension= 2.0cm, IV septal thickness= .8cm, posterior wall thickness= .7cm. Right ventricle: diastolic dimension = 2.1cm. Aortic Outflow: aortic root dimension= 3.0cm, leaflet separation 2.3cm. Also, left atrial dimension 3.4cm. The aortic valve showed fibrotic calcific change (no other details on that). If any can please

Now back to my initial question: this time the mitral valve problem was degraded from moderate to mild and the tricuspid regurg was downsized too from mild to trace. This gets better?..

In the fall of 2005 I had a yearly checkup with the same doctor but didn?t get a copy of the stress test numbers for comparison. Should have. Symptoms were increased with edema and fatigue. The doctor said that my valve problem seems to have actually iimproved based on the report. I told him that the woman doing the test was (literally) banging on the echo equipment and said they weren?t the best. He seemed unfazed. I immediately called my family doctor afterwards and he suggested that I not take the cardiologist?s advice to wait a year for the next followup appt, and to schedule one no later than 6 months. Well that time is approaching and I?m having enough symptoms to wonder if it?s my heart or something else. I have ascites?to the point of looking 7 months pregnant, my feet-ankles-legs are always swollen despite the meds, fatigue has much worstened, weight gain of 15 lbs in 2 weeks (not pigging out), and I?ve had consistent chest pressure for the last 72 hours. It doesn?t really hurt?just pressure. But I am having pain in my upper right side for some reason. I don?t trust this cardiologist anymore and know it?s going to take some time to get set up with a new one. Any input on how the tests could show ?valvular improvement? but my symptoms getting worse? Can valves heal themselves (I'd like to think yes but rather doubt it)? And what do those numbers mean? What would you do to get a new cardiologist fairly quickly? Whew?that was more than I expected to write but please know I appreciate your thoughts and time in reading this.
 
A lot questions

A lot questions

Ann,
Welcome to the site. I won''t begin to answer all your questions,but just
the most important.
1. When you see a tech. banging on sensitive medical equipment and when told about it, a doctor seems unconcerned- that should be a huge
clue to find a new doctor.
2. Echos are subject to interpertation and one level of change rarely means anything. Echos produced by machine that are subject to physical
abuse are worth nothing.
3. Valves rarely get better, depending on cause- most all get worse.
4. You need to find a doctor you can trust. Ask your GP, try to ask
nurse(they are your best source) or maybe someone here who lives near
you may suggest a good one. Our member GeeBee lives in Milford and is a seasoned valver
5. You need to start looking tomorrow!

In time other will be along to offer good advice. You will be fine, but you must take charge of your care.:)
 
Valve improvement??

Valve improvement??

Hi Ann, I too am new to this site and don't know what I would have done without it in the last few days. The question that you are asking is also something that I have been wondering about. Three years ago I was told my mitral valve regurgitation was moderate to severe - then last year it was apparently moderate - then this year it is again moderate to severe and the cardiologist is now talking valve repair/replacement at sometime in the near future. I questioned the technician about this and she said that your reading can be different depending on who was doing the test and their interpretation of the results. Has anyone else out there also had different readings at different times?? I tried asking the cardiologist but he really didn't have an answer for me.....
 
Thanks RCB for your response...so quickly too. Never thought about getting my GP nurse's suggestions. Also, I'll ask GeeBee if I can.... I know Milford well. Hadn't noticed how long ago you had your first surgery. That is something! Well, it has sunk in that no matter how much I may like my current cardio 99% of the time, that 1% is a major percent. Also, it seems like getting more than one opinion on test results is not so uncommon from what I've read here.
 
Hi Ann, and welcome to the website. I certainly can understand your frustration. I myself had terrible symptoms and one test didn't show what I was trying to tell them. So I asked for another test and that particular one it did show up. I think we all know our bodies the best. I mean if you go into a doctors office and your just sitting there - symptoms don't appear - but you take that same person and put them walking down the street and their gasping for air - then you know there's a problem. I had a stress echo and that showed my shortness of breath with exertion. Even though they kept giving me the regular echo. So it took some time - before I realized I needed a different test. We know our bodies - we just have to keep asking what is causing my shortness of breath and how can we find out. For me I have electrical which can cause shortness of breath as well and I have asthma as well.

I would get a second opinion at another facility with different machines and have several tests run. stress echo, TEE, x-ray of your chest. I don't like the sounds of edema. That's not good. If you can't breath well - go to the ER - don't wait to long. Gaining 15 pounds in two weeks is awful. My doctor said - if you gain 2 pounds overnight - you call us as we need to increase your lasix. TWO POUNDS !!! 15 pounds is way to much. I was told once that to get a test in the hospital as an out-patient takes much longer than if your an in-patient. I don't know if checking into the ER might help you. But 15 pounds is nothing to sneeze about - get it checked. I have CHF and gaining a couple pounds can make my breathing awful.

Best Wishes
M&M
 
First off, welcome. You're absolutely right when you say this is a caring supportive group.

I'm just guessing, but I'd assume as more folks respond, the common theme will be to get a second opinion. I suppose it's possible to show improvement w/o medications and or huge life style changes. But I also think if you truly have valve disease and as time goes by, something will have to be done. If I were in your shoes, I'd want another opinion just for concurrence on what you have already been told.

I remember before my surgery hoping I would hear the things I wanted to hear ... not necessarily the things I needed to hear. Each of us has been given a set amount of time on this wonderful planet. What none of us know, is how long that is. If I can do anything to help extend my stay, I'm willing to do what it takes. Even if it means seeing another cardio to tell me the same thing the first one has told me.

I think you have to ask yourself if your happy with what you've heard. If you have any doubts, I'd push on for more answers. Even if you have to go or see someone else. If you get the same news from the second cardio, I'd probably be satisfied.

I wish you luck in your adventure. Give some thought to seeing a second cardio ... just to confirm what you have heard from your own cardiologist.
 
I will be getting that second opinion...going to make calls as soon as I get off of here to check with family & friends and my GP for someone in my area that they're ok with. In the meantime, I doubled up my lasix and potassium late last night... couldn't stand the pressure anymore. It was worth the lack of sleep! Doing that reduced a whole lot of the edema in my stomach and some of the chest pressure (about 7 lbs. worth). I was seriously concerned last night :( and if posting and reading your replies helped so much at my stage, I can only imagine how comforting it is for others who are pre- and post- op. I hope that I'll be able to recipicate that comfort someday. :eek:
 
Wanted to ask....GeeBee, if you're reading this, would you mind telling me who you would recommend in our area for a cardiologist? Thanks.
 
15 lb. weight gain should elicit a visit to the ER. Does your PCP know about this weight gain? I would be carefull doubling your lasix without supervision of a physician to monitor your status.

Also a cardiac echo according to my surgeon and a TEE are still not a great indicator of what is actually going on with the valve. They can also vary according to tech and who reads the report. My echos were all over the place and the TEE and echos showed a trileaflet valve. I had a very messed up Bicuspid valve. The main thing to watch is the amount of regurgitation. My echos also said that I had Left ventricle enlargement, the TEE did not and the surgeon did not believe so once he got inside. Find a good surgeon because you can not rely on the info in the tests only. If your cardio is going soley off of the tests and ignoring symptoms. RUN!~

Heather
 
Hi Heather, thanks. I am just placed a call to my PCP and told him about the increase in lasix.

I still haven't figured out what a TEE is although I see it mentioned on here quite often. Also, I wondered if people get MRI's of their hearts.
Take care!
 
Hi Ann!

It's interesting to read that you have "myxomatous valve disease". I was dx with a myxomatous mitral valve which isn't quite prolapsing, no regurg, but mild aortic regurg and mild tricuspid regurg. My echo results say the mitral valve is myxomatous. It doesn't say that about the aortic but my cardio thinks it's the same process. So it looks like we're in the same boat. I was only dx 2 years ago so I only have had two echos...8 months apart. The only change was tricsupid went from trace to mild. I'm so glad you posted here because I haven't come across anyone else here who has listed myxomatous mulitple valves! Even though all my regurg is mild, I haveankle and stomach swelling too.. 10 pounds on my normally 110 pound frame. The doctors say it's not my heart but it's interesting that you have the same thing. I'm on bumex and potassium. I'm also 40 ish (39 11.25/12 years old to be exact) :eek:

Anyway, welcome aboard and thanks for posting!
 
Hi Ann,

Welcome to VR.com and happy to see another Cincy member. I will send you a PM about cardiologists in the area. I have a couple of concerns about the one I currently see but he is still good from a technical side.

I think you need to get some second opinions about your valve conditions. Bad valves can cause CHF and your symptoms seem to imply the possibility. Just because the valves might "test" in the acceptable range not to require surgery, in and of themselves, if your lifestyle is not what you want it to be, something needs to happen.

You might also want to get a surgical opinion. I had a wonderful surgeon for my last OHS who operates out of Christ and Jewish hospitals. His name is Creighton Wright and he is second only to God in my book.
 
Ann, welcome! And congratulations for hoping right on the problem by getting recommendations for another doctor. (So I won't chastize you for not seeing a cardio from '99 to '04 :) )

It's not unheard of for a valve to get better, depending on what your disease is, but it's pretty unusual. Since you have multiple valve involvement, I think your chances are less likely of having improvement that will last.

RCB is correct in that interpretation of echos can mean the difference between a mild grade and a trivial grade.
 
Hi Ann, glad you posted! I'll agree with everyone else that you need another opinion. Glad you increased your diuretic and lost 7 of those 15 pounds but that is not, not, not OK to have gained 15 pounds in 1 week. That is reason for a trip to the ER or to see your doc immediately (not tomorrow).

Glad Gina is giving you some resources in your area. Hope to hear from you soon that you have seen someone...preferably yesterday!

Let us know how you are.
 
Hi Ann, welcome!. I've got valvular problems of one degree or another with all my valves. The official diagnosis is RHD (Rheumatic Heart Disease) but on the pathology report of my explanted mitral valve it lists the tissue as rheumatic but also being degenerative myxomatous in nature. There was a time I asked my cardiac surgeon about the degree of symptoms I was having but none of my valve problems was judged more than "moderate". He said the combination of multiple valve problems made the over-all effect worse.

Test results, especially echoes, can vary a considerable degree dependent on the tech's and interpreter's skill level. If you have real concerns over your symptoms then trust yourself and seek further care. A fluid gain of just a few pounds makes a huge difference in not only my breathing but everything including my energy level. A gain of 15 lbs would be hard for me to manage without going to the ER for IV lasix or something similar.
 
Welcome, Ann.

I think you underestimate your symptoms; a fifty year old woman shouldn't feel like you do, and shouldn't have 15# of water weight in a short time (and apparently that was on top of the water weight you already had).

I suspect the pain in your upper right is liver - probably having some problems due to chf.

I'd run, not walk, to get help. Irrespective of what your cardio says, your symptoms are having a major impact on your life. Can you walk the same distances you once could; can you climb stairs; can you carry 35# without feeling like dying? I was in similar condition to you and wrote it off to fat & fifty. Found out within 6 months of surgery that I'd been robbed of 5 years of my life as my condition worsened by tiny increments and I'd accomodated.

btw - are you waking up from sleep due to breathing problems? Asthma? Back cramps? Visual disturbances?

You're going to have to take the lead on this and get help immediately.
 
Hi all, thank you for your input!! Has certainly given me lots to think about. Georgia, I think you're right about unestimating my symptoms. I seriously thought about an ER trip that night. I would have to say yes to your questions.... I guess it's not unusual how we can accommodate and get used to gradual symptoms. My life is compromised. Ug, that was hard to admit!!!

Also, the idea that having multiple valve disfunctions making the symptoms worse is something that hadn't occurred to me. One more thing to ask about when I get my second opinion so thank you bvdr for bringing that to my attention.

I'm getting the names of a few doctors in my area and asking how they relate to their patients. Think I've found one that sounds very good.

Gina, thanks for your PM with info on your doc. I replied to you so please check it out as I've given you info on what local cardio docs I've gotten new info on. Appreciate it much!

Will write back when I find out more. I'm breathing better although the pressure is still there. The pain in my side is gone with the loss of water. Thanks one and all.
 
Opps... Georgia, I reread your reply and I meant to answer "no" to your questions. I'm gonna go take a nap and refresh the ole' noggin. LOL!!
 
There is no test that is more technician dependent than the echocardiogram. You then combine that with a cardiologist who has not taken the time to learn sonography and you can have big problems. My son age 50 while living in Merritt Island Florida Had an echo which in which the technician diagnosed "cardiomyopathy". The cardiologist read the report to him and then discussed heart transplant. My son's next echo at University of Vermont showed miraculous resolution of cardiomyopathy but he does have mild MVP. I have an echo every two or three years and find it interesting ( since I do other types of sonography including fetal echocardiography). I can tell if the technician knows what she is doing. Only once have I asked to have the cardiologist check the work and come in and scan me himself.. I won't go to a lab where the cardiologists don't know ultrasound basics and are unable to differentiate a technically bad scan from a good one..
 
Update with New Cardiologist

Update with New Cardiologist

Hi all ... well, I took your advice. I found a new cardiologist and got an appointment fairly quickly. Pretty much having the same symptoms except the fatigue continues to increase. At first the new doc was reading copies from my prior cardiodoc and looked at me like he must have been reading the wrong medical report. Talk about getting frustrated. I got up and showed him paperwork I had that the previous cardiologist hadn't send him (according to this new doc). Then he understood and listened. I thought, oh no, here we go again but all in all, I felt much more comfortable with this new cardiologist than the last one. He actually looked me in the eyes as he was talking to me.

This new doc was concerned that a reason for having edema for over 3 years hadn't been made. He's ordered a nuclear stress test and an EKG with blood workup for kidneys and to see if I've had a heart attack. Blood workup is tomorrow. He's also concerned because my blood pressure is up from its normal 110/65 to 130/90. He said he wasn't convinced that my symptoms are only cardiological. I'll be back to see him on March 10th the day after the new tests. He asked if I knew my ejection fraction. I looked thru the paperwork from my prior cardiodoc and there wasn't anything in there. Can anybody tell me if this EF may be referred to by another name?

Lastly, on my statement (i.e., bill), he checked CHF for one of the diagnosis codes. Probably just a billing code thing I hope. Take care all.
 
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