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danilynn

Hi all, Hate to bring up something as 'trivial'as this with all the serious issues you all face. My husband is now 6+ weeks out of AVR, and the bills are pouring in, and the ins. co is balking at some of them, you know, those "reasonable and customary charges". They completely rejected the one for the valve replacement, and then when I talked to a supv., he said he ran it through again, and they were going to pay what amounted to about 2/3 of the charge. If anyone doesn't mind saying what the charge by the surgeon for avr and double bypass was, I would be interested in knowing. I'm thinking that the depression experienced by many heart patients may not be physiological at all! :rolleyes:
 
Insurance companies are designed for one thing anymore. To kill the person they're supposed to be covering. I can't speak for bypass but my avr with complications and 60 day stay was billed out at $158,000.

What you have to do is challenge everything the insurance company denies (And maybe look closely at what they did pay, because what they did probably isn't right!). Keep a running log of dates, times, places, and people you talk to, because they're all going to do the best they can to get out of paying anything if you let them.

Try not to let all of this be your demise. It's a game with them. Not to you, but to them. I don't know your particular circumstances, but don't start being muscled into making payments for things that the insurance company is responsible for. The hospital is not going to close it's doors if you don't pay today. ;)
 
I don't recall the cost of my quad bypass, but it was high.

I handle my Parkinson's affected brother's medical bills and I am appalled at how some of them are handled. Please remember that some of the people you are dealing with don't really always know what they are doing - and call them on their decisions. Reject their thinking - argue, if necessary. Threaten, if you think it will help (as in legal - my uncle/aunt, the lawyer sort of stuff). Let it ride til they reach a better decision in your favor. They are saying these days that the patient can bargain, as well. We have stood medical burdens far too long already. Ross is correct.

Good luck.........
 
Danilynn,

Ross has good advice on this issue. I would add the following:

Look closely at what your insurance company pays and doesn't pay. If you get what's called an "Explanation of Benefits" (EOB), it will have lots of details, including a line item that says something like "total patient responsibility." My experience with all kinds of medical charges is this:

1) The service provider (doctor/hospital/laboratory) sends in a charge.

2) The insurance company decides whether the charge is "Ususal, customary and/or resaonable" (UCR) and may decline or discount the part of the charge that is more than UCR. You may or may not be responsible for the amount that was declined or discounted, depending on the agreement between the provider and the insurance company. Ask your insurance company to be certain. Both you AND the provider can dispute any declined or discounted charges. Also, if the charges are significantly more than UCR, double check with your provider to make sure they a) charged the right amount, b) submitted the correct procedure code with the charge (proceudre codes are standardized across the medical industry), c) submitted the correct diagnosis code with the charge (diagnosis codes are also standardized, and may affect what the insurance company considers "reasonable"). If all else fails, politely ask the provider why the charges exceed UCR

3) If you're in an HMO or PPO, the insurance company discounts the charges down to a rate they have pre-negotiated with the provider. You are usually NOT responsible to pay for this kind of discount; the provider usually takes a "writeoff". Again, ask your insurance company to be certain.

4) The insurance company calculates the percentage of the after-decline and after-discount charges they have agreed to pay on your behalf (anywhere from 50% to 100% seems typical), and sends a check to the provider for that amount, if they are authorized to pay the provider directly, or sends you a check, if you have to pay the provider yourself and get reimbursement from the insurance company. You are usually responsible for paying what is left of the after-decline and after-discount charges.

While I'm not as cynical about insurance companies as Ross appears to be, ;) I do agree that you have to keep an eye on what and how much the insurance company is paying, you do need to appeal any rejections or reductions the insurance company makes, and you DEFINITELY need to stand up for yourself in dealing with them and feel justified in doing so (afgter all, you've been paying them premiums for years!). I don't think insurance companies are really treating this as a "game," but they are treating it as a profit-making opportunity. They are also typically very large, and have all the usual customer-relations problems that come with a large, bureaucratic organization.

Also, I have found that providers are very much in the same situation as patients are when trying to get money from insurance companies. If you get a bill, and it is declined, call your provider as soon as possible and give them the details. Your provider can appeal the denial, just the same as you can. If you both appeal, you get twice the opportunity for a reversal. If you get an EOB, offer to send a copy of it to your provider. Your provider has much more experience dealing with insurance companies than you have and can be a great resource in working out insurance disputes: a) they have undoubtedly had to deal with similar denials and discounts from your insurance company, b) they submit hundreds or thousands of claims a year, so they know how the "system" operates, and c) they probably have a group of staff (or an outside service) whose full-time job is to work out insurance issues. Demonstrate to your providers that you are willing to work with them in getting the insurance company to pay up. They will usually be much more friendly and more tolerant about outstanding amounts due if they know you're working with them and if they have all the details of your combined efforts.

I know it's a pain to have to go to all this work to pay the bills when you've just gone through a medical procedure, but, unfortunately, that's the way our medical "system" runs (notice I didn't necessarily say "works").

Finally, in your specific case, the fact that your husband had AVR and a double bypass AT THE SAME TIME, may have triggered a "two-procedures-in-one" clause in your insurance policy. My rough understanding of these kinds of clauses is this: the insurance company will pay a reduced rate for the "second" procedure (they pick which one is "second"), probably on the theory that the provider(s) only had to prepare, anesthetize, open up, close up and heal the patient once, (kind of like getting your tires and your shock absorbers replaced at the same time; the mechanic only has to put your car on the lift once).

Sorry to ramble on... I hope this helps and that you get your billing issues resolved to your satisfaction.
 
Dani...

Dani...

You are entitled to a copy of the itemized hospital bill. It will be pages and pages long. You are also entitled to an audit of that bill. Request both and go from there.

I was charged by the hospital for a mitral valve. My diagnosis was severe aortic stenosis. That got my attention quickly!

I got it straightened out after some agonizing phone calls. Who needs this stress right after OHS? Nobody!

Hmmm, wonder since the mitral was about a thousand dollars more than the aortic....could that have had something to do with it? There were also excessive drug charges..

By requesting the audit I saved my Insurance Company money...but that didn't make them any more pleasant to deal with as they will deny charges with an incorrect coding. A whole 'nother subject. Good post Dale.
 
That is good advice, Dale. I am 5 weeks out and haven't received ANY bills yet. The scary part is my insurance (from wife's teaching job - huge group) changes Jan. 1 to a different provider (Cigna to John Deere). I can already feel in my bones that Cigna will be in no hurry to cooperate (they are having major problems internally anyway). So I'm sure I will be reviewing this post in a few weeks!
 
Sheza,

Good suggestion on the itemized bill. Don't know why I've never asked for one; perhaps to avoid "sticker shock".

Kenny,

It doesn't matter whether you change insurnace carriers or not, the company that pays (or drags its feet) is the company in charge at the time the services were rendered. Just make sure you notify all your service providers ASAP after Jan. 1 that you've had a change so they don't accidentally bill Cigna for charges after that date. They'll all probably ask you the first time they see you in the new year, but it doesn't remind them. As for Cigna, I've had them for going on eight years, and we've had our ups and downs (including an 11-month delay in payment). Perhaps you and I should compile a list of "billing dos and don'ts" similar to your 13-item list in the pre-surgery forum.
 
Insurance companies can be troublesome but you have to watch the Hospital too.

Just today I received a bill from the hospital requesting an additional $2700+ dollars on top of the $520 we had payed as our copay for the surgery. This was what the surgeons billing office said was our copay. Well, when I got the bill today I knew something wasn't right as I am on a HMO/POS plan and knew that all charges are paid at a predetermined contract rate. I call the insurance company to get their opinion and it turns out that not only do I not have to pay the $2700 but that the $520 copay should have only been $20. Not to bad for a $85000+ procedure.

Just thought that it was interesting that a bill is going to get me $500 back!

Rick
 
Dale, that was one of the best written explainations of health insurance I have seen - we should replicate it under resources.
 
Dale,

I agree with Melissa - I think you have a great resource started. Unlike the surgery, I have no real experience yet on insurance billing (except my cardio and PCP billing has been clean and consistent). Now, a few months down the road I'm sure a know a little more:cool: .

So far I have only got the $100 co-pay invested! Hope that doesn't change....

We currently have started the battle of getting insurance to pay for cardiac re-hab. It seems valvers aren't really sick, so we do not need monitored re-hab. The re-hab folks said they would work with me anyway, but cannot hook me up to the monitors until insurance agrees!
 
I have been pleased so far with my insurance plan (United HealthCare). Of course, don't know if I'll remain pleased with next year's changes.

After orthopedic surgery in 1980, I got an itemized bill. Back then, the hospitals sent them because you paid up front and were reimbursed (had BC/BS then I think). There were some things on the bill that didn't jibe. Ran them past my RN sister, and called the hospital. The charges were taken off.

I got a copy of my OHS bill from the hospital. Made for many nights' bedside reading!

Kenny:

All I had to pay for my OHS was $100 co-pay for room/board. I gave a CC when I was admitted, hospital didn't run it through. Got a bill several weeks ago for the $100. Go figure!
W/out insurance, tally was about $100,000 or so. Don't remember what was actually paid out.
 
bills

bills

If all this is over welming you ...hire a independant LSW to deal with it. She/he will wind up saving you money!!! Always request a itimised bill only. And DONT start paying a dime yet.

Med
PS lot of good information on this site search under bills or costs.
 
Hi Danilynn,

The following were my charges for a St Jude mechanical aortic valve plus a single bypass in late June 2002.

As you can see, Medicare paid much less than the charges submitted by the doctors.


Catherization + TEE
Povider charges $3558
Medicare Payments 461
Blue Cross Payments $1089
Surgeon Consultation
Provider Charges 260
Medicare Payments 165
Hospital, 2 nights
Medicare Payments 5044
Blue Cross Payments 812

Single Bypass CABG
Provider Charges 3700
Medicare Payments 841
Ascending Aortic Graft
Provider Charges 8500
Medicare Payments 3051
Other Doctors
Provider Charges 90
Medicare Payments 36
Blue Cross Payments 157
Hospital, 5 nights
Medicare Payments 32314
Blue Cross Payments 0

I do not have a breakdown of the hospital charges.

I must apologise for the format as it appears in the posting. The indentations and the tabulations in my original do not carry forward into the posting. I hope you can make sense out of it
 
Sorry for the time lapse, but I've been doing the holiday visit thing...

I have some additional thoughts on bills:

Just because you receive a bill doesn't mean that you have to pay for it (at least not right away). Whoever carries the insurance on you or otherwise provides your financial support is called the "responsible party." For my family, that's me (who, me, the "responsible party"?). If all other sources of payment fail to pay, the responsible party is, of course, ultimately responsible for paying. The service provider will usually determine the responsible party before they "render" their services. If you have health insurance (or similar coverage), as a courtesy (and, yes, it IS a courtesy, though it makes a certain amount of business sense), most service providers will "bill" your insurance carrier directly; essentially, they are submitting an insurance claim on your behalf and requesting direct repayment from the insurance carrier. At the same time, they will almost always send you a bill directly. They will also continue to send you bills until your balance reaches zero, through a combination of insurance payments, insurance write-offs (discounts), and payments from you. If you're shocked about the first bill, or see things you question, don't hesitate to call both your service provider and your insurance provider to ask questions like "Was it really this expensive," and "Will all of these charges be covered?" You may find that the initial bill from the provider DOES NOT include HMO or PPO in-network discounts; most likely because the service provider is a member of several "networks" and each has a different discount schedule. Keep an eye on the second and third bills; if your service provider bills your insurance carrier directly, you should start to see some discounts and/or write-offs applied to your account.

After the holidays, I'll try to review and summarize my thoughts into a single document, and consult with Ross about the most appropriate place to put it (besides the usual suggestions ;) ).
 
thanks

thanks

Thanks to all for your valuable input. Happy New Year.
Danilynn:) :)
 
Dale:
You're so right. Just because you get one doesn't always mean YOU are the one going to pay.

Baylor hospital overlooked several thousand in billing charges, sent me a bill and I began hyperventilating. I called, and was told they had resubmitted the actual charges to my insurer. Sure enough, insurance paid all.
This happened with several other bills for my surgery.
 
Whenever, my Grandson has to go to a doctor (usually for an accident..like hurting ankle playing football) ect..When I receive the bill saying ..this is what patient owes..I pay it right then...Because I want them to see him again..for whatever.:D :D Just got a refund from one of his doctor's office..because insurance finally came thru.:mad: :mad: Will wait the next time..:D Bonnie
 
I just this am got hit with a call out of the blue from a collection agency threating me with a law suit over a medical bill they say I owe them $5000. From 1994!!! I told him to stick it. He politely told me I also owed uoi another 3000 from 2000yr. Can they just not be in contact with you like that indefinately, and arbitrarily choose when to persue the bill. If I indeed owe any part of it. He stopped talking when I told him I am on disability and have been since my surgery in 2000. Whats wrong with this nation. The government is totally ignoring us. The weathest part of our society...the seniors...are being taken care of ...they are able to get SS plus diability plus medicare plus medicaid. The handicaped and disabled can't. I worked my whole life untill this last surgery...in 2000. I get the min. amt. allowed because I worked for myself (for the most part). I have been at it since I was 12 years old scrubbing toilets to help pay for my mom and I rent. God damit when did medical facilities become so out landishly greedy? **** I thought all this was settled and done with. When will this everend!!!
Med

PS and the help I get still isn't enough to cover one months worth of meds.
 
Med

Med

Do what my sister did..My brother-in-law had an aneurysm that burst....They told us at midnite. they needed to operate..knowing he would not live.....Died 12 hours later.. Insurance paid for everything..but a year later. Crazy bills came in...She said..O.K. I will send you $10.00 a month. Never heard from them again:) :) Bonnie
 
Med - you are just one of many, many who have your same words and feelings. We are the ONLY modern country that does not provide medical care for our citizens. It might not work just right in these other countries, but medical care is available to them even if they have to wait. Our medical 'industry' is probably the richest in the country. The AMA has the greatest influence in Washington. Before I reached Medicare age, I was without insurance for years. When I HAD to be seen by a doctor, they told me to bring $ for the office call because I had no insurance. Yes, I can get medical care now, but why in the world did I have to wait so long. It boggles the mind how we can provide so much to so many off our shores when we do NOT care for citizens such as you who are hurting.

As to the bills, you can ask for a detailed statement of what it's all about, but they may not have it. It would mean going back to the original biller - who has probably 'filed' the bills away in never-neverland. It's going to be a boondoggle to trace it down, even if you wanted to. My granddaughter, bless her, worked in a hospital financial office. She couldn't type, she can't add, she had no business being in that line of work, but they hired her anyway. I just cannot imagine the people she messed up. In handling my brother's insurance and my own, it's a surprise how often these hospitals and doctors' office people make mistakes. I hate to think of all the patients who pay these incorrect bills, not knowing they don't owe them. Sick and disabled people should not have to worry about these things.
For what it's worth, I am on your side. Ann
 
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