Assisted suicide?

[Barry]

There are two issues raised in the Schiavo case:
1. Whether Ms. Schiavo indeed had stated to her husband that were she in the situation she's now in that she'd rather die; and
2. The means of her death - i.e. being passively left to die of hunger and thirst.

There's a separate thread on the Schiavo case that largely focuses upon whether and how the decision should be made whether she lives or dies. I'd like to focus here on the second.

I think that's a dreadful way to die. I wouldn't put a dog down that way. At the same time, I have put down a dog I dearly loved when the pain of life clearly outweighed the pleasures of life in his old age. But I didn't with-hold food and water until he died; I shot him in the desert that he loved.

Which raises the issue of assisted suicide.

Now, there are circumstances under which I would not choose to continue to live. But I would like, in those circumstances, to die with at least the degree of humanity that I showed my dog. I don't want to die of hunger and thirst as Ms. Schiavo is likely to do.

What are folks' thoughts on suicide and assisted suicide? Both are moral, religious, and legal questions.

Short version of my thoughts are that I think that there is such a thing as rational and justifiable suicide (and that there also clearly is such a thing as an irrational and unjustified suicide), have no moral or religious objections to rational and justified suicide. But I do not care for the way assisted suicide tends to be viewed in a way that medicalizes it: While I think it should be OK for a doc to prescribe a lethal dosage of drugs, I'm also not a big fan of the Dr. Kavorkian model of assisted suicide. I don't want my suicide to be going through the Utilization Review process of some insurance company and my doc figuring out how much to bill, etc., etc., etc. I want it to be a private decision and a private act. Done in a hospital with medical assistance if absolutely necessary (as would be the case in Ms. Schiavo's instance), but I would much more want a beloved friend to help me with my final exit than a doctor, just as I think my dog preferred taking a final trip into the desert he loved than to the vet's that he feared.

And the ONLY person who gets to decide whether I take my life is me. It's not murder by the government or by a physician dressed up as euthenasia - "suicide" means that it was my decision, and my decision alone.

What are folks' thoughts on this?

 

[Mary]

Barry,
I think anytime we try to artificially create or take away life we're asking for trouble.
Feeding tubes aren't natural. If attempts to keep Terri Schiavo alive had relied on people feeding her, rather than using the feeding tube, she probably would have choked to death a long time ago.
Assisted suicide? People have been killing themselves since time began. If you want to kill yourself, that's your decision but please don't ask for help. It's not right to put that burden on someone else.
The world does not revolve on what is fair/unfair; cruel/kind. Nature has a way of taking care of most things that happen. That why I believe we should stay out of assisted suicide and human cloning.
And diverting water to desert regions.

 

[Barry]

Well, Mary, we at least agree on the inanity of diverting water to desert regions. Big problem here in Nevada, development exceeding the available water. Hey, what is it about "desert" that folks are unclear on?

Don't know just how much I agree with the rest of your post, but there certainly is a good degree of wisdom in much of what you say.

There was a time that pneumonia was referred to as "the old man's friend", a relatively easy exit when your body is failing. That was before we developed effective treatments for it.

Actually, I would be OK with a friend asking me to help him kill himself. I've got a friend who may reasonably be expected to ask me for that within the not-too-distant future. The validity of your position is borne out by the fact that I really do hope he doesn't ask.

But I figure so long as I can reserve the right to say "No", a friend can ask whatever they want.

I think assisted suicide actually may rest within that very large arena of things best left alone. Just as you note that suicide has been going on for a very long time, so has assisted suicide. Especially common in time of war with the terminally and excruciatingly painfully wounded. Maybe some things are best left for folks to figure out privately and discreetly on their own without all the baggage that governmental involvement - whether prohibiting, regulating, or legitimizing - brings with it.

 

[Karlynn]

In theory I agree. Unfortunately things have a way of getting bastardized when made into laws. I could see it getting far away from it's original intent. Such as someone speaking for my brother since he doesn't have the intelligence to tell people he wants to die.

Doctors do engage in assisted suicide for many terminally ill patients, we just never hear about it because it's "an overdose of pain meds" or it's just not charted. I have a friend that survived breast cancer. She specifically spoke to her doctor about "helping her on" if she got bad. The doctor agreed and she felt very comfortable proceeding with whatever treatment she needed, knowing that she wouldn't have to die a torturous death. Thanks be to God that she made it through and is 8 years post diagnosis.

edit: Sorry Barry, the thanking God wasn't meant to be "in your face". I just read another post where you mentioned you are an atheist.

 

[Mary]

Better clarify on feeding tubes: my niece, born two months prematurely Jan. 14, was on one until the first of March. I'm extraordinarily grateful for a feeding tube in this instance. By and large, I think heroic measures are completely justifiable at the beginning of life.
Maybe this is a contradiction; I don't know.
As long as I don't try to force it on others via government edicts, I think I'm ok.

 

[Barry]

...edit: Sorry Barry, the thanking God wasn't meant to be "in your face". I just read another post where you mentioned you are an atheist.

And hopefully you also noted that comment was made in the paradoxical context of my praying. I certainly do not demand that other folks share my beliefs, nor do I purport to quite understand all the mysteries of the universe myself.

Well, most of the mysteries I understand. But not quite all of them. May take me another week or so...

 

[geebee]

Better clarify on feeding tubes: my niece, born two months prematurely Jan. 14, was on one until the first of March. I'm extraordinarily grateful for a feeding tube in this instance. By and large, I think heroic measures are completely justifiable at the beginning of life.
Maybe this is a contradiction; I don't know.
As long as I don't try to force it on others via government edicts, I think I'm ok.

Mary,

I think it just proves that these decisions are so very personal it is not a black or white situation. Obviously respirators were necessary to keep all of us alive after OHS but, I was so panicked by it that I could not deal with one long-term. Although I also THINK I would not want to live a life like Terry's, until I have been there, I would not know. Unfortunately, once there, you cannot make those choices.

Without a doubt, a huge catch-22.

However, personally (as I am sure some of you have read) do not consider a feeding tube to be life support. Sure Terry will die without it but I will die if I don't eat. That is a far cry from not being able to breathe on your own for an extended period.

 

[Karlynn]

Well, most of the mysteries I understand. But not quite all of them. May take me another week or so...

Which is why you will make a benevolent dictator!

 

[Abbanabba]

What I find ironic in the whole euthenasia debate is people crying out about those assisting in the process as "playing God" - yet how many of us here (..and in the general community..) would be here if other people hadn't already "played God" in our lives by permitting us to live where we would have otherwise been long dead?

I guess my point is, that while we freely accept intervention to sustain life - which isn't always the natural outcome - we get so overworked about intervention to end life..... which for ALL of us IS the natural outcome - eventually!

While I abhor the notion of euthenasia being used to rid ourselves of the old and incapacited - without their consent, I do believe there is a very valid place for it in our society for those who want/need it. The difficult part is ensuring this sort of legislation isn't abused and I guess that's where it's up to each individual to make their wishes known, rather than hoping the right thing will happen after the fact.

As an atheist/agnostic I have no religious qualms about euthenasia - but I do find a certain irony that "God" will forgive you for killing someone else if you repent, yet killing yourself is a mortal sin (??!!!). Then again I don't know who it was that decided to lay down "the law" on "God's" behalf anyway.... but that's a whole 'nother debate which I won't get into here.

In the meantime - I do love a great debate and it's invigorating getting so many different points of view. It definitely gets the grey matter ticking over.


A : )

 

[Karlynn]

Anna,
Very well said! Your remarks are pretty close to the way I view the issue. Unfortunately humans have an innate way of mucking things up.

 

[Barry]

Interesting point about "playing God", Abbanabba. Most of the folks on these forums probably would be dead now if it weren't for a doc playing God: My dad died of heart failure from severe mitral valve prolapse; I got a valve for it.

Old bad joke...

The recently-deceased are lined up at the Pearly Gates seeking admission when a fellow with a stethescope around his neck carrying a medical bag simply walks to the front of the line, demands admission, and walks in. St. Peter turns to the folks in line and says, "Oh, that's God. He just thinks he's a doctor."

 

[Harpoon]

I've always felt comfortable with the idea of being on life-support (though I HATED the NG tube up my nose and never want to be through that again just because it sucked, not because I'd rather die) as long as it means I'm going to recover at some point.

On the drive out to Cleveland two days before my valve replacement, I told my father that if something happened and there was no reasonable chance for me to live a "normal" life again without extraordinary medical assistance, basically if the only way I could continue to live was if I was on life-support for the rest of my life, then I'd prefer not to be on that life-support.

Life to me is being out in the world, being able to enjoy experiences, being able to go outside and breath fresh air, being able to play with my son, have a romantic dinner with my wife, being able to work, read, enjoy and play music....

If I'm going to spend the remander of my life, 30-40 years or more, laying in a hospital bed hooked up to machines with no chance for a recovery that lets me get off those machines, I don't want to live, not like that.

I have a living will and a DNR. I'm also an organ donor (with LOADS of restrictions) and my family knows.

I was lucky. I was right on the edge of death, literally, for weeks. I was on a vent, on a feeding tube, the whole deal. However, even though I don't remember any of it, I was communicating. I was at least semi-alert at times and I could use simple gestures and a pad of paper with words and the alphabet on it to "communicate" with my family, the doctors, and the nurses. There was hope for recovery, even if it was fleeting at times, it was there and it was real.

Schiavo doesn't have that, never will. If she had a DNR in place when she first had the heart attack (as I recall, that's what it was) that put her in the state she's now in, she never would have gotten to this point.

My DNR states that if I do have a heart attack (or whatever,) efforts should be made to revive me if there's a reasonable chance for survival. If there's no chance for survival, only immediate family can make the decision to suspend medical treatment decision AFTER consulting with a qualified physician, preferably one that knows me (such as my cardiologist.)

My family also knows that, under no circumstances, do I want to be put in a home or long-term care facility.

I'd rather be in the hospital a while longer than go to some nursing home. They do however have some leeway on this one. If the facility is well managed, well maintained, I differ to my wife's best judgement, or my parent's, in that order.

That's there because there's an assisted living facility in town that's got some REALLY high quality standards and I've been there (through the newspaper) a number of times and feel comfortable being there as a resident. I've also been to most of the other "homes" in the area and they're all deathtraps that I don't ever want to enter as a patient...