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DuchessBear

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 12, 2002
Messages
71
Location
Fairfax, Virginia
Here's an article that appeared in a local DC newspaper last week. I've marked in red the passage that raised my eyebrows.

The Washington Examiner
Tuesday, September 20, 2005

A.Fib: A case of correlation-causality

Steve Fahey
Ask the Sports Doc

Occasionally I have episodes of atrial fibrillation and am currently taking Sotalol plus one aspirin per day. In the past, I was also taking Coumadin, but my cardiologist discontinued that last year because I do a lot of bicycling. My question: Is there a conflict between Sotalol and aspirin? Can the combination trigger A.fib?
-.Andrew 0., Alexandria


Such an interaction would be very unlikely, Andrew, but first some background for read- ers less knowledgeable on this tricky subject:

In "atrial fibrillation," the two smaller chambers atop the heart begin to twitch ineffectually instead of contracting. This prevents the larger 'chambers, the ventricles, from pumping effectively, and also prevents the heart rate from increasing in response to exercise.

Additionally, because blood can more easily stagnate in a fibrillating atrium, the condition predisposes to the formation of blood clots that, can break loose and travel to the brain to cause a stroke.

If "A.fib" has been present for more than just a couple of hours, cardiologists may choose to "thin the blood" with Coumadin to prevent clotting before taking measures to stop the arrhythmia. They often continue the blood thinner for several months as a preventive measure. Given your active lifestyle it seems wise to have stopped it, as a fall from a bicycle while on Coumadin could easily lead to fatal internal bleeding.

I don't know of any problem with taking both aspirin and Sotalol, a relatively new "beta-blocker" which has additional anti-arrhythmia properties. In fact, the aspirin may be helpful should you go back into atrial fibrillation, as it will partly re place Coumadin's "blood-thinning" effect.


However, Sotalol is a powerful drug in its own right, as I am sure your cardiologist advised you. It is one of the many drugs I discussed last week that need to be avoided in persons with "Long QT Syndrome," and it can cause irregular heartbeats as well as prevent them. Like all "beta-blockers," it also presents problems for patients with diabetes or asthma.

If you have indeed noticed that you go into A.fb more frequently when you take both medicines, you may be dealing with a spurious cause-and-effect relationship. The most important thing I learned in college was that "correlation doesn't prove causality." There is often a hidden variable at play. Is it possible that, you take your aspirin more faithfully, or at a higher dose, when you are going to do something that might, lead to aches and pains, like bicycling? If so, it may be the activity instead of the medicine that leads to the arrhythmia.

I recently fell into a similar correlation-causality trap. Two months after successful knee surgery, my orthopedist gave me some cortisone injections to facilitate getting back into summer sports more quickly. I resumed tennis and surfing during the mid-summer heat wave, and started waking up with painful leg cramps. Assuming it was the heat to which I was unaccustomed, exercise and dehydration causing the cramps, I tried everything from 6 a.m. tennis to salt tablets and Gatorade, and still couldn't get a decent night's sleep.

After two weeks of misery, I went to my own -- very smart -- doctor. He determined that it was not the sports, but the cortisone injections that caused the cramps. As he predicted, the drug would largely be out of my system after a month. I'm now back on the courts -- and sleeping

Dr Steve Fahey is an emergency physician who served for 15 years as a team physician at the University of Maryland Send your questions to [email protected].
 
Shall we start a pool on how long it takes "Andrew" to die from a clot while cycling? OK, OK, maybe a bit "sick" but to the point.
 
Am I crazy?? Did the doctor contradict himself in the first paragraph, and then show his total ignorance in the second? There is one stupid man. :mad:

That poor guy (bicyclist) has no idea of the low level of care he is getting.

The article should have been trounced roundly in followup letters. It's dangerous!
 
He is an emergency physician. Most of them fear warfarin. They have little desire or experience at treating people long-term like warfarin requires.
 
Which doctor is the bigger fool or most likily to be sued?

Which doctor is the bigger fool or most likily to be sued?

Is it Doctor A?:
"In the past, I was also taking Coumadin, but my cardiologist discontinued that last year because I do a lot of bicycling"

Or is it Doctor B?
"Given your active lifestyle it seems wise to have stopped it, as a fall from a bicycle while on Coumadin could easily lead to fatal internal bleeding."

I have to wonder if either of these "doctors" has thought about which occurs
more often- Strokes in people with a-fib or a fall from a bicycle which results
in fatal internal bleeding by someone on warfarin.

I wonder how many pts. have been treated in an ER for "Fatal internal bleeding from a bicycle fall while on warfarin"?

MAN O MAN! I swear to God I don't know how I managed to live 10 years, yet
alone all the years I have on W A R F A R I N :eek: :eek: :eek:

I was out cutting up a large tree branch that fallen from a tall maple during a storm last week. I was half way through the job, when I thought to myself "Oh my GOD, I'm using a CHAINSAW- won't everybody at VR.com be afraid that I will bleed to death". The thought brought a big smile to my face :) :D
 
RCB said:
I was out cutting up a large tree branch that fallen from a tall maple during a storm last week. I was half way through the job, when I thought to myself "Oh my GOD, I'm using a CHAINSAW- won't everybody at VR.com be afraid that I will bleed to death". The thought brought a big smile to my face :) :D
Not Robthatsme or I, we'd be smiling right along with ya!
 
RCB said:
"Oh my GOD, I'm using a CHAINSAW- won't everybody at VR.com be afraid that I will bleed to death".
I was scared of chain saws before I was on the dreaded coumadin - I'm still scared of using them!
 
jeffp said:
I was scared of chain saws before I was on the dreaded coumadin - I'm still scared of using them!

Been using them since I was about 12, but then on a farm there are a lot
more dangerous things.

But Jeff your problem might be that you shouldn't be thinking of using a
chain saw on a pt. when a scaphel is more accurate, less tissue damage and
of course there is all that messy bar oil left in the surgical field!! :eek: :D :D
 
Why do daughter always get away so much from Mothers

Why do daughter always get away so much from Mothers

hensylee said:
daughter bought one about a year ago - still in the box. She's apprehensive, too.

If I ever bought my mother(God rest her soul) a chain saw, she would have
"Boxed my ears"! :( What ever happened to giving your mother some nice piece of China or Glassware. :confused:
 
RCB said:
If I ever bought my mother(God rest her soul) a chain saw, she would have
"Boxed my ears"! :( What ever happened to giving your mother some nice piece of China or Glassware. :confused:

NO, no - she bought it for herself. She's just afraid to use it, so far. Maybe next year. Or when Doyle comes to teach her; he's the husband of my other daughter.

For me, I bought a power washer, but I am afraid to use it because I might electrocute myself. When Doyle comes, I guess. I don't do china anymore. When daughter moved home a couple yrs ago, she brought a houseful and I had a houseful (more than we can ever use), so we don't need china, linens, silver, - just chain saws and power washers. We already have tools and lawn stuff.

She's thinking of a gun next. Our neighbors on both sides have them and they pleasure shoot, or target shoot, or frog shoot, or something along those lines. We can hear them through the woods. She'd have one for protection, and yes, she knows how to use one; she took the course. (daughter is very feminine, btw; living in the woods requires a bit of manly stuff, and we don't have one so have to do it ourselves - well, she does, not me) Or wait for Doyle.
 
I've never used a chainsaw and never intend to. The only nod I've made to using coumadin is I've quit using electic carving knives. I had a few close calls over the years carving roasts and turkeys, and decided that I just didn't want to end up with a nasty bleed.
 
Dr. Fahey Replies

Dr. Fahey Replies

I don't recall if I enclosed the lay phrase in quotes; it should have been. I think it is an effective one, as patients can visualize an analogy to "thinning glue" to delay its hardening. It's not unusual for physicians to use such phrases with patients, and this column is for lay folks, not physicians. As for bicycle injuries, certainly most fatal injuries result from collisions with cars, but with thousands of people worldwide dying while cycling I stand by my suggesting that a bicycle fall in a coumadinized patient can "easily lead to fatal bleeding." parenthetically, i myself would bike if on coumadin. the writer in question was in a situation where the "blood thinning" was not absolutely needed to begin with. srf
 
Really!

Really!

Ross said:
I don't recall if I enclosed the lay phrase in quotes; it should have been. I think it is an effective one, as patients can visualize an analogy to "thinning glue" to delay its hardening. It's not unusual for physicians to use such phrases with patients, and this column is for lay folks, not physicians. As for bicycle injuries, certainly most fatal injuries result from collisions with cars, but with thousands of people worldwide dying while cycling I stand by my suggesting that a bicycle fall in a coumadinized patient can "easily lead to fatal bleeding." parenthetically, i myself would bike if on coumadin. the writer in question was in a situation where the "blood thinning" was not absolutely needed to begin with. srf

Can the good dr. quote some statistics or is his information just a guess.
First, "thousands of people worldwide dying while cycling" is a very carefully
selected statistic. That includes the billion or so people people in China and
India etc., for whom a biclcle is the only means of transportation and standards of health care are quite low. You might ask how many people died
"worldwide" falling out of bed. When your working with billions as the universals set= a thousand is nothing.

Second, there is a logical error here in the doctor's argument. It's the old%%%
"IF A then B" where you presume the A case is true, therefore the B case is true. The problem with the logic is the the use of the word "easily". Easily is a pretty low standard and I don't think he can back his statement up with data.

Third, Since when is the ACC not recommending Warfarin ACT for people suffering from a-fib.

Again, this doctor is willing to trade brain cells for blood cells. Maybe someone should tell him what the second leading cause of death and disability
is in this country! :mad:
 
That's alright RCB, I didn't part without injecting some thoughts about what he had said and the effect it has on patients. I told him straight up that information like that is one reason we see so many people come in here selecting tissue valves, when mechanical is the wiser choice given age, previous surgeries etc, but refuse because they don't want to be on the evil drug Coumadin and will do anything to avoid it. I asked him how many lives that it has saved vs how many it has taken. Didn't get an answer to that!

I also got on him about spreading old protocol, no protocol, and myth when it comes to treating patients surgically, ie, all these boneheads telling people to stop their Coumadin for minor things. I also stated that I'd like to see, in my lifetime, every doctor on the same page when it comes to such things. I'm only a peon in the pond, but if more people start standing up to these guys, maybe, just maybe, they'll start getting the picture.
 
sports doc

sports doc

I sent the following email to the Sports Doc just to see what kind of reply I would get. His reply makes it obvious why he is afraid of bleeding in coumadin patients:

At 02:15 PM 9/26/2005, you wrote:

Just wanted your thoughts on the following matter. My father has been on coumadin since MVR (St. Jude Mechanical #31) in 1999. Discovered recently after reviewing my father's coag chart that his primary care physician has been keeping his INR at 1.5 - 2.0 for the past 2 years. The letter from my father's surgeon recommended 2.5-3.5. Asked the PCP why he was keeping dad below therepuetic range and he said my father was active and he was afraid dad would fall and hit his head. My father is 73 years of age and his activities include golf, gardening, and ball room dancing. Asked dad's pcp if he had consulted with a dad's cardio concerning keeping his INR this low and he said he has been dad's pcp for 14 years and he know's dad and his activities better than the cardio and he did not feel the need to consult with a cardio about this.

Thanks


Whew. That is beyond my "algorithm." Recommendations vary depend on the type of valve installed and perhaps on whether or not Dad is also on daily aspirin therapy. There's no getting around that surgeons are more likely to be conservative in such cases, as they have a lot "invested" in seeing that their work succeeds. Same would go for how long to be at rest after a hernia repair. As a non-surgeon, I wouldn't mind countermanding a surgeon's conservative recommendation for the latter, but would not ... unless I had some special expertise beyond "knowing my patient's lifestyle" ... alter anticoagulation recommendations. Parenthetically though, my brother kept playing basketball, against orders, while on Coumadin. He took a fall that resulted in his bleeding two liters (almost half his blood volume) into his chest. These are very tough calls. srf
 
Parenthetically though, my brother kept playing basketball, against orders, while on Coumadin. He took a fall that resulted in his bleeding two liters (almost half his blood volume) into his chest. srf

Maybe he would have bled quite a bit otherwise??? Methinks yes. (Wonder what that "fall" was? From 2 stories? Out of a moving car? Down a flight of stairs?)
 
I wondered what would be the effect on one's lifestyle if a stroke occurred while bicycling.
 

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