Active lifestyles, Warfarin and injuries, eek! (slightly graphic pics!!)

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triff

Active member
Joined
Sep 19, 2012
Messages
43
Location
London, UK
I've always been very active so was never going to let a little thing like a mechanical heart valve affect that, after getting the all-clear from my surgeon and cardio (after turning up to a check-up 8 weeks post-op on a mountain bike) I'm pretty much the same as I was before, except for the obvious precautions anyone on anti-coagulation has to take. The obvious thing to say might be "Hey, why not sell your bike and snowboard?", but that means the endocarditis won, and I'm not having that. So this post is to share a few things I've noticed about Warfarin and injuring yourself and hopefully to find out what other people have discovered themselves.

I've had plenty of bumps and bruises in the 18 months since then, but two that I'd consider more serious. The first was mountain bike related after crashing (rare, honest!) and whacking my hip, not something you can really protect. The graze/swelling was painful but didn't look like anything to worry about at first, this was one day after:

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Then at three days:

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So it basically continued along that route until I had a massive purple bruise covering half my stomach, a big contusion on my hip and an INR of 7.2 after taking two 500mg Ibuprofens on the first two days, which seemed to amplify the effects of the Warfarin. I noobishly assumed that because I'd been given them post-op in hospital they were safe - but I hadn't considered my blood was being constantly monitored then. Oops. My clinic kept an eye on things until my levels returned to normal. Anyways, after six days I had this lovely appendage, which kinda wobbled about when I moved, like a purple hip-moob:

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And at three weeks things had calmed down a bit, except for a huge haematoma on my hip, which stayed for months after:

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Yummy. I still have a scar and a bit of a lump, but this taught me a few things: firstly don't ever take Ibuprofen if you're on Warfarin (!!!) and secondly there seems to be a point at which injuries get exponentially worse on anti-coagulants than a slightly lesser injury would be, completely as if the relationship between the accident and resulting injury is less linear. Sporting injuries are unavoidable so I'm very curious if anyone else has noticed this.

So on to now, I'm typing this lying on my front after getting back from my second post-op snowboarding trip last night. On the last day it was icy and I caught an edge, slamming into the piste on my arse and to make it all the more fun, right under a lift - there wasn't any bruising so thankfully you'll be spared any photos of my poorly posterior :) I'd done this a few times in the week and it was a bit sore (as were my thumbs and elbow) but this one really made it angry. I did manage to get another big run in, probably shouldn't have but hey, I blame the Alpine air. Since then I'm limping a bit and can support my weight/walk fine but I can't sit down properly (the 9 hour bus/flight/train home was lovely) and the pain has gone down the back of my hamstring. Two days later I'm just seeing how it gets on, I haven't been to A&E 'cos I figure there's little they can do, there's still no bruising and I haven't had any painkillers of any sort - but there's quite a bit of swelling though and a big, fairly hard lump which is restricting my forward/back leg movement. Think it's time to upgrade my crash pants to something with d3o - it's been looking after my knees for years.

So the reason I'm typing this is to see what other people's experiences have been after injuring themselves (whether sports related or normal accidents) and 'cos I wanted to know if anyone else has noticed what I did last night, that it gets less painful approaching Warfarin o' clock then more painful afterwards, I'm not sure if it was coincidence or the direct effects of that dose or one I took a few days ago, given the slow release time. Based on the hip incident, I expect this'll calm down in a few days but still give me a bit of gip for a month or so. I considered missing a dose tonight (I forget one roughly once a month) to see if that made the swelling go down, but quickly decided I should only do that under doctors orders.

I knew early on that this sort of thing would be inevitable if I was going to keep doing the things I love, so to hopefully show why the pain is all worth it:

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<-- me
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:)
 
Wow, that's some bruise!

Glad to read you have the keep at it attitude :)

And at three weeks things had calmed down a bit, except for a huge haematoma on my hip, which stayed for months after:

actually its trivial in comparison but there seems to be a relationship. Anyway, I whacked myself on the outside of my arm (right on the bone) just down from the elbow towards the wrist while doing some reno work. the bruise which developed was sort of similar to yours, but what was interesting was the lump on the bone. That was a new thing for me. I wondered at the time if there was some 'bone' bruise possible.

It went down of its own accord, and I thought less of it soon.

you say:
an INR of 7.2 after

wow ... that's really high ... why did it get that high (yes I read your post)?? Are you self testing or self dosing yet? How often do you test?

anyway, with respect to:
The first was mountain bike related after crashing (rare, honest!) and whacking my hip, not something you can really protect.

I think perhaps there is ... Assuming you wear pants, you could put a small section of 3 or 5mm camping mat foam into your pants as a pad. I recall something like this when I played hockey as a kid.

Enjoy the snow!
 
Wow, that's some bruise!

*blush* :)

...but what was interesting was the lump on the bone. That was a new thing for me. I wondered at the time if there was some 'bone' bruise possible.

It is possible to get a haematoma of the bone (I guess a subperiosteal hematoma), so any anti-coagulation affecting your blood/bruising should have an equal effect on that. Maybe this is exactly the point I'm talking about when things get considerably more painful, when the bone gets bruised - in which case the solution would be not to injure myself quite that much. Seems so obvious now... :) Yay for Internet diagnosis!

wow ... that's really high ... why did it get that high (yes I read your post)?? Are you self testing or self dosing yet? How often do you test?

I'm still under a clinic and they don't support home testing, I have asked numerous times 'cos of the effect testing has on my career, I'm freelance so it's a bit rubbish starting with a new client and having to explain you'll need to take the morning off because you're a cyborg and need to get your blood checked. Anyways, I think the Ibuprofen did amplify the effects of the Warfarin but a recent stag weekend could also have been involved...... (I still drink alcohol).

...you could put a small section of 3 or 5mm camping mat foam into your pants as a pad. I recall something like this when I played hockey as a kid.

I have d3o kneepads, it's ridiculous stuff that's about 6mm thick and flexible but when impacted the molecules bond together to form a hard shell, I haven't had a knee injury since I bought them. I'll definitely be upgrading my crash pants from the rigid ABS ones I have now to something with d3o. Check out this video :)
 
It is possible to get a haematoma of the bone (I guess a subperiosteal hematoma),


interesting ...

Seems so obvious now... :) Yay for Internet diagnosis!

and conversation helping one to think outside the 9 dots ;-)

I'm still under a clinic and they don't support home testing, I have asked numerous times 'cos of the effect testing has on my career, I'm freelance so it's a bit rubbish starting with a new client and having to explain you'll need to take the morning

I know, I had the same **** with my role in IT ... people just don't like you missing a monday morning meeting because the wakkabats at the clinic were having one of those days.

My advice would be to go n grab a Coagucheck XS off ebay (or whatever you prefer ... sus out prices of strips in the UK, I'd buy based on consumable costs if there is a significant difference) and start testing yourself ... start off as your own 'side by side' and don't mention it to them. Then when you are confident at it (takes a little while and rigorous documentation helps there {rigorous does not mean time consuming, my XLS takes me 5 min on Saturday mornings}) you know that you can skip out on the inconvenient tests ... perhaps if each time they test you, and you're in range, they'll blow your testing times longer.

Now as to what to do about dosing ... well I've had my little arguments with dosing and doctors in the past which involved me fibbing, being right, being caught out (long story) and then having to come clean that not only did I disagree, but I was also right and your dose therefore would not have been .... didn't go down well but they eventually saw my point (you know, the facts).

You bein in PommieLand I can't say what the 'authorities' would be like ... being a colonial I get to get away with things some times in Ozzie-tray-ya ...
[ link ]


dunno ....

well anyway, about booze, the effect varies. Myself testing (extensive I might add ... all in the name of science) has shown that it has no effect on me (well my INR) while others here have found such. Self testing (wait till your hands are steady, but not till the hangover lifts) will help you to know what the effects are and what you should consider doing about it (another tube?)

[ link ]


;-)

oh ... and this (d3o kneepads) looks very cool
 
Yeah I'm pretty certain now I have a subperiosteal hematoma complicated by Warfarin, which equates to "Stay active, bruise yourself or whatever but don't do it so bad you bruise the f***in' bone!" - or to put it another way, wrap myself in d3o and go for it.

I've spoken to the clinic about self-testing, they don't generally support it but sounded open to my being really stubborn and pushing it. I was advised to buy one off Roche direct rather than eBay because you get the training, and also to find a doctor who'll support me because then I'll get the strips and other bits with the same pre-payment certificate that covers my Warfarin, i.e. for free. Which is nice. And I also came to the same conclusion that I need to do parallel tests for a while so I'm confident I'm okay before hopefully reducing my anti-coag clinic appointments - I actually just got discharged for missing three in a row but they know I'm a reprobate so I'm already back in. My doctor got a letter (and I was cc'd) saying I'd been discharged, that came yesterday.

As for alcohol, it's really a whole other post but when I came outta hospital after 2 months of being teetotal, I didn't drink for a week and was relatively stable at 6mg on a 2.5-3.5 range, then about a week later (after a mate's birthday party drinking Becks Blue and thinking 'oh god, is this my social life from now on?', I started drinking again slowly, to see what the effects would be. What I've noticed:

  • I can still drink pretty much as I used to (for scientific purposes), which wasn't occasional or light...
  • My Warfarin dose is 1-1.5mg a day higher when I'm on my 'normal' lifestyle
  • The side-effects are worse, so it's a case of balancing priorities I guess
  • I shouldn't drink shots or try and keep up with non-cyborgs, I learned this the hard way on a stag weekend with a bunch of Irish mates
  • Warfarin doesn't make me get more drunk, it makes me get drunk faster, which in turn means...
  • I'm much more likely to black out by drinking irresponsibly, which very rarely happened before but has happened a few times whilst I've been working this out

I guess another way of saying that is "Everything in moderation". I'd be healthier if I didn't drink and suffer less side-effects, I'd be less susceptible to injuries and the bruising I have at the moment would be significantly less, maybe the bone wouldn't even be bruised. But I'm young (36) and single and very active both socially and with sports, so I need to balance it all out and decide what's best for me, which goes back to the original point of this post, learning for myself what the effects and things to watch are, rather than relying 100% on doctors who'll frown at me for having a couple too many beers.

Thanks for your replies pellicle, they've really helped me start to get a grip on all of this.
 
Hi

which equates to "Stay active, bruise yourself or whatever but don't do it so bad you bruise the f***in' bone!" - or to put it another way, wrap myself in d3o and go for it.

I'm a motorcycle nutcase and also a bit of 4WD bushie. I got a mate who has a Disco (Landie) and I've got a Pajero. He's spent a bundle on lifts, rock sliders and yadda and always sayin how his rig will go places mine won't. I've pointed out to him that on any given trip the difference equates to bugger all before we're both needing to get out and walk the rest of the way, but his willingness to put himself in harms way is more likely to have him needing a walk out while I'll probably be giving him the lift.

so ... this leads into your point of:
I guess another way of saying that is "Everything in moderation".

with respect to self testing
I was advised to buy one off Roche direct rather than eBay because you get the training,

my experience of that was that I've done better jobs in training when I trained nurses in using our electronic gear (back when I was a tech) and it was more in line with "little old dears" than people with a technical bent like me. To be honest its not really that much more than hand holding. If you can prick your finger and get it onto the strip then you're 99% of the way there. Perhaps I'll do a blog post with a training video on it ... god knows there's enough twaddle on my blog to sink the Bismark anyway ...

But I'm young (36) and single and very active both socially and with sports,

it was at about that age that I began discovering that while I had training and talent that the younger Dutch guys I was with in Korea could sink me under the table and bounce back better next day. It was at about that time that I decided that (to use their words about a drinking game) that losing wasn't winning it was just losing.

So now I just drink Red wine because I enjoy it ... and speaking of my blog, I also do this to remove alcohol from wine and thus get a low cal natural drink which tastes good and (using a screw top bottle) allows me to drink away at parties and stay able to drive home ...
http://cjeastwd.blogspot.com/2013/06/just-for-taste-of-it.html

In your quest for self testing nirvana (no not the Kurt Cobain version) I recommend this thread to read a really well documented learning curve by another Left Brained poster here.

http://www.valvereplacement.org/forums/showthread.php?42132-NovembINR&p=544019#post544019

Anyway I owe it to Ola to make up for my "Lou Reed" moment and thinking he was a she ...

my own testing strategy is normally weekly with abnormal events done perhaps every other day for a week. My geek metaphor on that is like this:
Normally 128K MP3 is fine, but falls apart with sounds where there is a lot of action happening. By using VBR with a ceiling of 256K you can keep overall samples low (benefiting filesize) and still get all the data needed for an accurate sound reproduction.

Weekly sampling will miss spikes in the INR and so when you know something odd is happening (like you didn't realise it was OP rum, or you got a bit whacked and binged bigtime on Horenso at the sushi joint not realizing it was spinach) you can see what happens, how long it takes to 'normalise' and identify if its worth doing anything to correct it (usually it isn't, but being anal I sometimes pop an extra 1/4 of a 1mg tab into the day after I've binged on greens as it has seemed to normalise the spike faster for me YMMV).


Thanks for your replies pellicle, they've really helped me start to get a grip on all of this.

no wukkers ... always glad to attempt to assist. Even glader when it actually does assist.

Have fun on the Sno Board ... there ain't many hills here in Finland for which to use them ...
 
From what my cardio told me, ipubrofen and wafarin have no interaction. The problem is that long term doses (higher the dose the worse) can lead to stomach bleeding in some people and this is really bad if you are on warfarin. He told me I could use ipubofren, but follow the directions (i.e. use the minimum effective dose) and don't use it continously for more than a month.

When it comes to alcohol, per the young pharmacist who trained me in the hospital, alcohol has no effect on warfarin and vice versa. The problem with alcohol is if you drink too much and fall down, you are more likely to have problems...as your accident proves. The exception is the binge drinking alcoholic (bing drink regularly, pass out, puke, etc.), but for them warfarin is the least of their problems. You may think warfarin makes the alcohol stronger, but you can get a tolerance to alcohol. You may be drinking less overall, thus you can't "keep up" with your mates when you drink too much.
 
"The obvious thing to say might be "Hey, why not sell your bike and snowboard?", but that means the endocarditis won, and I'm not having that."

I'm with you there. I started MTBing *after* I got my mech valve (due to a serious acute bout of endocarditis in which my cow valve was half eaten by bacteria). I'm not very good at MTBing and crash quite a bit but have never bruised anything close to what you got! I managed a spectacular endo a few months ago, landed on my face but saved the bike by allowing it to land on me - I was sore for over a week but no more bruising than I would have got without warfarin. So I'm pretty impressed with what you've done!

Respect! :)
 
Hi

"The obvious thing to say might be "Hey, why not sell your bike and snowboard?", but that means the endocarditis won, and I'm not having that."

I'm with you there.

well I agree with SkiGirl .... ;-)

I managed a spectacular endo a few months ago, landed on my face but saved the bike by allowing it to land on me

although here I don't agree with SkiGirl ... let the bike find its own padding elsewhere! If you bike has no scratches and dents then it lacks cred ... get it dinged, and stop using your body as a pad for the bike!

just sayin ...
 
Thank you for agreeing with me pellicle, you are a very smart man.

I did not *intentionally* save the bike by serving as a landing pad. It just ended up on top of me. Too bad I did not have a GoPro (helmet-mounted camera) cos then I could have sent the footage to my cardiologist and showed him exactly how careful I am.
 
Too bad I did not have a GoPro (helmet-mounted camera) cos then I could have sent the footage to my cardiologist and showed him exactly how careful I am.

well when you do arrange that, have a camera setup to record his face. That'd be worth sharing too !
 
I managed a spectacular endo a few months ago, landed on my face but saved the bike by allowing it to land on me

The first thing you should always do in a MTB crash is get as far from the bike as you can! From my experience of Warfarin, I'd think everyone would get worse bruising my a factor of their INR. I'd certainly never done anything before, through similar activities, to the level of the hip injury above. I can't be sure the ibuprofen did multiply my INR but I can't think of any other reason it could've reached 7.2 or whatever it was - I definitely hadn't double dosed or anything.

Mention anything on the 'Noooo!!!!' list to doctors and they'll likely seem to blame that for any anomalies. So my mentioning of Ibuprofen might've resulted in a reaction that made me blame it for the 7.2, it could have been something else though.
 
my experience of that was that I've done better jobs in training when I trained nurses in using our electronic gear (back when I was a tech) and it was more in line with "little old dears" than people with a technical bent like me.

I couldn't agree more, because of the risks involved with MVR patients my doctors/nurses always aim for the lowest common denominator lest someone mistake their 3mg Warfarin tabs for a tube of blue Smarties and end up bleeding profusely from their eye sockets, this also fits my a room full of doctors = a room full of opinions rule, find one you trust and ignore the rest because you'll only get safe/misinformed/default responses.

Interesting what you've done with wine, I don't drive and do like being nicely inebriated. More of a beer man here tho, so I just need to learn some self-control and stop before I get to blackout territory. Yup it happens, and I suspecty because Warfarin makes me get drunk faster than with an INR of 1.
 
When it comes to alcohol, per the young pharmacist who trained me in the hospital, alcohol has no effect on warfarin and vice versa. The problem with alcohol is if you drink too much and fall down, you are more likely to have problems...as your accident proves. The exception is the binge drinking alcoholic (bing drink regularly, pass out, puke, etc.), but for them warfarin is the least of their problems. You may think warfarin makes the alcohol stronger, but you can get a tolerance to alcohol.

Actually I think Warfarin makes the alcohol act faster (maybe by a factor of your INR) but gets you equally drunk, so things like shots quickly get you past the point of no return without even seeing it, and therein lieth the danger. As I understand it, the interaction of both substances with the liver is complex and not well understood, I've had a higher INR after going on holidays/stag weekends which suggests alcohol is to blame. Again, doctors seem reluctant to advise a 'safe' level of drinking because eventually someone's gonna screw up and go to far, and they'll get sued - so we have to work it out for ourselves, just as non cyborgs have to.
 
Actually I think Warfarin makes the alcohol act faster (maybe by a factor of your INR) but gets you equally drunk, so things like shots quickly get you past the point of no return without even seeing it, and therein lieth the danger. As I understand it, the interaction of both substances with the liver is complex and not well understood, I've had a higher INR after going on holidays/stag weekends which suggests alcohol is to blame. Again, doctors seem reluctant to advise a 'safe' level of drinking because eventually someone's gonna screw up and go to far, and they'll get sued - so we have to work it out for ourselves, just as non cyborgs have to.

My own testing doesn't agree with your findings. I notice no difference with the speed or amount that alcohol (beer) affects me. I actually have done tests starting sober, then started drinking without eating. I didn't want food to possibly interfere with the results. :thumbup: Yes I did this on purpose, so I would know.

Anyway, I found no significant difference in my INR from sober to definitely intoxicated, to hung over the next morning. I bought my Inratio 2 and strips out of pocket, since I got turned down by insurance. But that way I can use them as I want to.
 
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